Burnside brass

[slimjim]

Looking for some burnside brass. Don't have to be a lot,would like 10 to 15 pieces if possible. I know this is a lot when talking Burnside.
Email. Jimshiriki@hotmail.com
Would be interested in a 54 cal burnside mold too but the bore on this gun measures out to a .562 dia.Been shooting RB and they work well but wondering what the designed bullet would be like.
Thanks jimshiriki@hotmail.com

[CAGerringer]

Jim,
I have nothing but admiration for anyone that can make a Burnside shoot. I had one in the Eighties... and I couldn't.
First problem you will run into is that a lot of the cases will not allow the size bullet you need to seat into the front of the case.
Before you spend a lot on brass, I'd advise trying the plastic cases first. They're a bit more flexible when loading...and cheaper.
Good luck.
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[slimjim]

Thanks Charlie. I found I can get the .562 ball to stay with a light pressing. I have just acquired this carbine and took it to the range the other day we have no 50yd bay only 25, 100 and 200 yd. I went to the 25 and it grouped well there of course that's a long ways to 50 and 100 but I got hope.I thought maybe the design bullet would work also. If I can get kill zone accuracy at a 100 yds with ball I'd be satisfied. I hunt with all the guns I got so would like to see this one work out too. I plan on going 3/4 range on the 200 yd range with a tripod less people to deal with there at times may get a few rounds off there. In regards to the plastic cases,I don't think anyone makes them anymore. There was one place that did but has stopped. They would be easier on the pocket book for sure.
Thanks for the response Charlie.
Jim.

[Hal]

Jim,

Below is an excerpt from an e-mail that I sent someone several weeks ago on this subject:



Bullet: Accurate Molds 56-390A
Lead: Pure Soft
Size: .560"

Case: Brass
Charge: 28 gr Swiss 3Fg
Filler: tuft of cotton from a cotton ball
Lube: 50/50 Beeswax and Olive Oil or SPG (See below)
Velocity: 860 fps (roughly, as I recall...)


Tony Beck, of the Palmetto Guard, told me several years ago that Burnsides can be very accurate, once you find what they like, but it's not easy to find what they like. I think I am up to the 4th bullet now. It is one that Tony drew up by hand, very closely duplicating the original Burnside bullet. I think the only deviations were that he enlarged the lube groove a bit and due to Accurate's manufacturing process, there is a small flat 'meplat' on the nose instead of a gentle radius. I took Tony's drawings and created a solid model in CAD and we submitted it to Accurate Molds. That bullet has done more for accuracy in MY Burnside than anything else. Of course, they are all different.


With the 3 groove rifling, it is hard to get a good measurement of the groove diameter of a slug. I think mine is in the .560" range. Also, .560" is about the largest diameter that will fit in my cases. At first, I was measuring my cases and thought I could only get about a .556" bullet in them. What I didn't realize at the time was that the action on my carbine was actually crimping the thin lip of the case when closing up the action. When I was measuring my cases, I was actually measuring that crimped in lip, which made for undersized bullets and lousy accuracy.


The other thing that I believe has really made a difference is making a set of tools to load the cases. Tony had made a set for his and sent me a sketch. His are used on the bench, maybe with a mallet, kinda like the old Lee Loader. I took his idea and made a set that goes in my reloading press. There are two operations I do with them. The first is to expand that lip back out and maybe it even expands the whole neck just a hair. Couldn't say for sure, but it does allow me to insert the .560" bullet. The other tool crimps the lip just a tad to hold the bullet in the case. It keeps it centered and gives a little bit of neck tension. I can still twist the bullet in some of them, but it holds them fairly tight as far as coming back out or dropping off center due to gravity when they are horizontal.


Lube......I was using my old standby lube which is 50/50 beeswax and olive oil. And it was doing fine, except I was having to pan lube and it was just messy. I have a little spacer deal that fits inside a pie pan that has holes to place the bullets evenly spaced in the pan for lubing. Once they are all in there, I just pull it out. It's fine for .50 and .54 caliber bullets, but these .56 cal ones are so close together that it's hard to push them out of the disc of lube without it breaking between them and then there's no lube left in the groove. I finally bought a .560" lubrisizer die from S&S and bought a few sticks of SPG lube. The rounds I was shooting Saturday....some were lubed with the 50/50 and others were the SPG. I have no idea which were which, but it shot pretty well all day.

[slimjim]

Thanks Hal, This gives me courage that the Burnside will make a deer gun. I under stand to order a Accurate mold 56-390A .560 in size. Is this the revised bullet that would not have the flat tip? I see you only have 28 Gr of powder what do you think at a 100 yds., will there be enough punch left to do the job or would you think bumping it up a bit?
I'm interested in your expander die and your crimping tools, did you machine these your self? Is there a way to acquire a set like these or the Dimensions for them and how to make?
Thanks again for the Guidant's
Jim H

[Hal]

Jim,

Now, you're into the tough part. Yes, I machined the tools myself, with a bit of trial and error fitting, so my dimensions probably are not right for your gun, as they are all different. Ideally, the bullet is .001"-.002" over the groove size of the barrel, but the brass cases available from S&S or Lodgewood and probably others are pretty much .560" inside. I'm not sure how much larger they could be reamed or honed, but it might be worth looking into. Casting from pure soft lead will allow the charge to "obturate" or "bump up" the bullet diameter slightly on firing, so you MAY be able to get away with something SLIGHTLY smaller than the recommended size, but probably not much.

The "dies" are essentially a three piece set plus a fourth piece that is nothing more than a brass rod with a knob on one end. The first piece is a sort of shell holder that is machined on the bottom to fit into a reloading press where an ordinary shell holder goes. The upper side of it has a small recess maybe 1/8" deep that the back end of a Burnside shell will just fit into with little to no side play. That is used to push the shell upward onto and into the other two parts.

The second one is a piece of 7/8-14 threaded rod that will screw into the press like a reloading die. The lower end of it is turned down slightly larger than .560" to allow for some spring back and has a fillet radius on the end to allow easy starting into the case mouth and another fillet radius at the upper end of the turned down part to slightly flare the thin mouth of the case just a hair to make it easier to get the bullet started into the case mouth. It then has a roughly 17/64 thru hole through the rest of the "die" for the 1/4" brass rod to go through. You put the brass rod through there and either using your palm or a plastic hammer, tap the case back off of the "expander die". I use case lube on there to make things go smoother.

The third piece is a "Crimp die". It also is a piece of 7/8-14 threaded rod. The lower end is bored just large enough to clear the diameter of the bullet, but not the case mouth. Then the edge of this bore is chamfered such that when the case mouth touches it, it is crimped inward. This one also had a through hole for the brass rod to push the cartridge back out. It doesn't stick in there tight, but it does stick. The rod does not do any major damage to the bullet nose. It just pops it loose.

The bullet does have a flat on the nose, but it is only 3/16" in diameter. See https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=56-390A. The flat has to be there, as it is a result of the machining process. I suspect that if the mould was machined using a "cherry", it could be made with a point or rounded nose, but then it would only be available in the size of the cherry.

I must admit, when I was doing my load development, I wasn't worried about lethality or "knock down power". I was looking for group size, as all I was going to do was punch paper and break clays and tiles. The velocity of that load is definitely on the slow side. It is in the neighborhood of 45 ACP velocities, but with a much heavier bullet, so at close range, I would say it certainly more apt to get a clean kill on a deer than a .45. I have no idea what either one is doing by the time it travels 100 yards. Certainly slower, but how much, I couldn't say. I wouldn't stand down range to find out.:D

[Hal]

Here's some pics I found on my phone. It doesn't look like I got one of the crimper, unless it's one of the ones in the press. Also, it looks like maybe I didn't have a fillet radius on the upper portion of the expander like I thought. I'm just relying on the expander to make it big enough to get a bullet started. Also, it looks like these were taken before I added the knob to the brass rod.




1248112482124831248412485

[slimjim]

Thanks Hal
That was a lot of work to line this up and I appreciate it. When you mentioned 45ACP I have shot some Bulls Eye NRA in my time and I recall shooting slow fire @ 50 yards the wad cutters were running 950 to 970 fps I know I wasn't going to stand down line to find out but always wondered to what impact they had there.
I think what I'm going to do first is see what this round ball will give me. I'm going to up my powder from 35 gr and work to around 47 gr. I think these cartridges very in mouth dia because every so often have a ball come loss not before loading but afterwards,, If I open chamber to take out must be the swaging in chamber that disrupts the ball because its not deep enough.. I know the sharps will do the job at 75 to 100 yds. with 47.5 gr that in the percussion rifle. the 50-70 I'm still working on that found, after the fact by plugging the barrel to check size I needed a couple of thousands. Had a mold made up but haven't tried it yet.
Thank you so much for your time I have acquired a lot of knowledge that I won't have to wonder about.
Jim.