Morse carbine

[mgmradio]

I had a friend build me a Morse carbine from a Rifle Shoppe kit a few months ago and we are almost finished building a second one now. I?ve only had it out a few times so far and each time I?ve shot it it has been windy. Well I had it out yesterday and the wind was nearly nonexistent when we started. I believe this thing is going to be a tack driver after I get the sights right. It shoots high so I was having to aim at the bottom of the target paper and as my eyes aren?t the best it?s not the best for repeatability. Will have to make a taller front sight.
The pictures below show the carbine and the first 5 shots at 100 yards. The high shot was the first on a clean barrel the next 4 are in a 1.5? group and with the fouling shot 3.5?. 12436

[Kevin Tinny]

Super, MGM/Mike:
Please add more close-up's of your beauty.
Annealing the cases should help.
More are avail, if and when.
Tx.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Carolina Reb]

Nice! What cartridge did you chamber it for?

[mgmradio]

Thank you Kevin, I?ll probably be taking you up on that offer.
Super, MGM/Mike:
Please add more close-up's of your beauty.
Annealing the cases should help.
More are avail, if and when.
Tx.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[mgmradio]

It was chambered by the Rifle Shoppe and is approximately the same as the original Morse. This was very close to the same dimensions as the 50-70 though about 1/4? shorter.


Nice! What cartridge did you chamber it for?

[mgmradio]

As per Kevin?s request, here are more photos. On the gun we are building now the front sight Has been corrected to look like the original. Also we will make two mor cleaning rods and cleaning jags that look lik the originals.

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks for the added photo's, MGM:
Please tell us how long it took from parts order to parts delivery, and then approx. how many hours to build.
Once you know the Starline 50-70's are ok, it will be my pleasure to send more for both of them. Tx.
Kevin Tinny

[mgmradio]

That?s two interesting stories.
On the first one it took me more than a month of phone calls 2-3 times a week to get ahold of some one to find out if they had any in stock and get one ordered. They told me it was in stock but they needed to make a ram rod. Then it took 3 months before it was shipped. The kit consisted of raw castings and a parts list. No instructions or drawings. A friend of mine has a third model, but I took 7 months before he?d let us look at it to get an idea how to put the kit together. After that it took about 2 months to get it together and working. There was a lot of work figuring out the cartridges after that.
On the second one it only took a week to get ahold of them and get it ordered. It was supposedly in stock and ready to ship that week, it actually took calls every week or two of calling and excuses to finally get it shipped a little over a month later. Obviously customer service is a concern. I?ve been doing at least half the work on building this one and have been working with my gunsmith every day for three weeks now and will probably finish this week. So time to finish kit is a couple of hundred hours. This one is going much faster as we know how everything works.


Thanks for the added photo's, MGM:
Please tell us how long it took from parts order to parts delivery, and then approx. how many hours to build.
Once you know the Starline 50-70's are ok, it will be my pleasure to send more for both of them. Tx.
Kevin Tinny

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks for the detail, MGM:
So, thirteen months for delivery of first one plus approx. 100 shop hours to complete. Wow. So much involved beyond the research. Priceless they are.
Happy for you. Smiles.
Kevin Tinny

[Ron The Old Reb]

"On the first one it took me more than a month of phone calls 2-3 times a week to get ahold of some one to find out if they had any in stock"

That's the Riffle Shoppe. If they answered on the first tray you probably dilled the wrong, number.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, MGM:

Back to the Starline 50-70 case, please.
Unaltered OAL is 1.75", per my notes. Mine are still in moving boxes.
If your Morse case is .250" less, that should make yours approx. 1.500", which is about .330" longer than a std 1.17" 56-50 case. More powder room.
So, if these fit, please share your case, bullet and loading info that should make the ctg more potent than a 56-50. Many thanks.
Kevin Tinny

[mgmradio]

Kevin,
The cases I got from you were actually 50-90?s. The cut down length is 1.538?. Rim diameter 0.655 and mouth diameter is .545 outside and 0.521 inside. Im using the Eras Gone By Smith bullet as cast ( 0.520-0.521 ) but may try sizing to 0.518?. Load is 38-39gr 2F Goex. We have tried 3 of the 4 types of anvils shown on the original patent drawings. The first type used a hairpin soldered to the inside of the case. Unfortunately though they work well they only last 1-4 shots before the anvil breaks loose at the solder joint. The second type uses a turned anvil/nipple inserted and soldered onto a step in the case. So far I?ve shot the best groups with this case. The third type is a turned base with the brass tube soldered on. Group size with these has been slightly larger than with the second type. On a positive note the brass cutoff the 50-90 cases to make the second type cartridges is used to make the third type, so no waste.
Below are pictures of the type two and three cartridges with a loose type two insert.



Hello, MGM:

Back to the Starline 50-70 case, please.
Unaltered OAL is 1.75", per my notes. Mine are still in moving boxes.
If your Morse case is .250" less, that should make yours approx. 1.500", which is about .330" longer than a std 1.17" 56-50 case. More powder room.
So, if these fit, please share your case, bullet and loading info that should make the ctg more potent than a 56-50. Many thanks.
Kevin Tinny

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, MGM:
The photo's and details are fascinating.
I had no idea of the case design issues.
Please keep details coming. Thanks.
Kevin Tinny

[mgmradio]

Here are a couple of pictures of the cases and complete cartridges. The bases are open and only sealed with a 1/4? rubber washer. The firing pin and the front of the breach block fit into the rear of the case and make contact with the washer. The washer holds the musket cap on the anvil. The cap is recessed below the rear surface of the washer and there is a raised circle on the face of the firing pin that almost touches the cap. When the cartridge is fired the firing pin compresses the rubber slightly to fire the cap. Chamber pressure then compresses the washer sealing it against the firing pin and causing it to seal against the case and around the cap forming an effective seal. There is basically no gas leakage into the breach aria. The stacked tolerance at the rear of the cartridge to firing pin is very critical. As little as .050? to tight and the breach won?t close. To much clearance and it won?t fire.
Clear as mud?
Thanks, MGM:
The photo's and details are fascinating.
I had no idea of the case design issues.
Please keep details coming. Thanks.
Kevin Tinny

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, MGM:

The revealing photo's and added details are ample for me. Thanks.
It seems to be a complicated design.
I searched for details and found that
Track of The Wolf's website shows cases.

I see the driving band on the bullet is slightly exposed on the ctg.
Is that to create some contact with the rifling, and is there a leade at the front of the chamber, please?

You are, as the slug rifle shooters of the 1880's wrote in their journals: "Putting the shoot in it."
Kevin Tinny

[John Bly]

Thanks for the good pictures and info. I've got one made by Rodney Storie with 5 cases. He wanted me to try to sell it. I had it at Nat'ls but did not get much interest. His cases seem to be machined from solid with a steel insert to hold the percussion cap. I've got the washers also. I need to bite the bullet and go shoot the thing.

[mgmradio]

I had access to one of the Track of the Wolfs cases, but it is not of the proper design as there is just a nipple in the base, but no other openings to allow the rubber washer to do it?s job in sealing the cartridge and was worried that the jet through the nipple hole would escape and foul the breach mechanism. I don?t have the book at the house right now, but the author of the Myth v Reality seres of books did one on the Morse and shot his original with a similar cartridge and after 8 or 10 shots had fouling all the way into the receiver that Locked the gun up. I have no fouling at all in the breach aria. I was also trying to make my cartridges as accurate as possible to see if the design really worked and it dose.
I was originally going to have a mould made that duplicated the original bullet but when I was slugging the bore I used a Smith bullet of the original design wit the rounded top band. After running it through the barrel I found that only the front and rear bands had engraved all the way to the bottom of the groves and the lands were just a couple of thousandth's from touching the bottom of the bands. I figured this would be a good fit and apparently I was correct. The cartridges as loaded with the curved front band do not touch the leade, but if I load them out an 1/8? or so more they do. I don?t really know if I?d call it a leade or not though and probably should have sent the barrel out to be refined. What it looks like is a sharp step up then a slight leade.
Thanks, MGM:

The revealing photo's and added details are ample for me. Thanks.
It seems to be a complicated design.
I searched for details and found that
Track of The Wolf's website shows cases.

I see the driving band on the bullet is slightly exposed on the ctg.
Is that to create some contact with the rifling, and is there a leade at the front of the chamber, please?

You are, as the slug rifle shooters of the 1880's wrote in their journals: "Putting the shoot in it."
Kevin Tinny

[mgmradio]

Hi John,
I thought the Morse had sold as about the time you announced you had it at the nationals it dropped of or GunsInternational. I saw the pictures of the cartridges that were made for that gun and they are similar to the ones Track of the Wolf?s ones. Please do take it out and shoot it. I?d like to know how those cartridges work and how much or if they have blowby into the breach.
Our next project is going to be making new breach blocks for both guns so I can shoot the cut down cases with regular primers. They will make it a lot easier to make up a bunch of loads for fun at the range.



Thanks for the good pictures and info. I've got one made by Rodney Storie with 5 cases. He wanted me to try to sell it. I had it at Nat'ls but did not get much interest. His cases seem to be machined from solid with a steel insert to hold the percussion cap. I've got the washers also. I need to bite the bullet and go shoot the thing.