What do these dirty patches mean?

[Maillemaker]

When I clean my musket barrel, I put the breech end in my utility sink full of hot water, and I first scrub the bore with a soapy brass brush. Next, I run a patch up and down the bore, with a pumping action to make sure the fire channel is blasted clean. Then I use a breech face scraper, and follow up with a soapy patch once again.

The soapy patch comes out basically spotless.

Then I take the barrel over to my workbench, and I run a dry patch down the bore.

This comes out dirty.

I then ran a second dry patch down the bore. It also came out dirty.

What is going on here? Is this leading?

Full size image here: https://i.imgur.com/UGZkB27.jpg

On the left is the patch from wet cleaning with soapy water in the sink.
On the right is the first dry patch down the bore.
On the top is the second dry patch down the bore.
https://i.imgur.com/UGZkB27l.jpg

Any ideas what is going on?

Thanks,
Steve

[MR. GADGET]

Rust in the bore.

[Maillemaker]

I went to the grocery store and bought a Scotchbrite scrubby and scrubbed the bore. Patch came out dirty again.

Full-sized image here: https://i.imgur.com/7unTxFZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7unTxFZl.jpg

I had checked the package very carefully to see if it was "copper plated" and no mention. After I had already scrubbed the bore I stuck a magnet to it and sure enough it stuck. Hopefully I have not ruined the barrel.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Here is a video of before scrubbing and after with a borescope:


https://youtu.be/sqDAu-u6Ls0

[Maillemaker]

This barrel is a Whitacre P53 barrel that I bought new about 10 years ago. It probably has over 6,000 rounds through it.

Steve

[Muley Gil]

Brownells sells bronze wool.

Don't worry, you haven't hurt the bore.

[Don Dixon]

Oh was the poor musket leaded. The things one can learn using a bore scope. Look at the layers of lead and fouling on the edges of the lands. After your normal cleaning routine - which will hopefully remove the black powder fouling - hit the bore periodically with J-B non-embedding bore cleaning compound used in accordance with the instructions on the container. It will keep the lead fouling knocked back [the cleaning patches come out positively black] and is not as aggressive as bronze wool or a scrubby. Whatever you do, don't use one of the steel wire brushes. Based on observation with my Hawkeye bore scope they really scratch the bore, no matter what the manufacturer's propaganda says.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[clowdis]

The soapy water is cleaning the patch while you're sloshing it up and down the barrel. It won't get any dirtier than the water it's in. Afterwards you can get more carbon and fouling out by using just a patch and your cleaner and it looks dirtier because you aren't sloshing it around in water. You can get some mild abrasive bore cleaners to help with the carbon. A borescope can be your friend here, but it can also lead to buying new barrels for no reason. A gunsmith's best friend :-)

[Maillemaker]

Oh was the poor musket leaded. The things one can learn using a bore scope. Look at the layers of lead and fouling on the edges of the lands. After your normal cleaning routine - which will hopefully remove the black powder fouling - hit the bore periodically with J-B non-embedding bore cleaning compound used in accordance with the instructions on the container. It will keep the lead fouling knocked back [the cleaning patches come out positively black] and is not as aggressive as bronze wool or a scrubby. Whatever you do, don't use one of the steel wire brushes. Based on observation with my Hawkeye bore scope they really scratch the bore, no matter what the manufacturer's propaganda says.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

Thanks Don. I've gone back and looked at my videos and while I can see some dark splotches that might be lead I'm really not sure what I'm looking at. This is also a cheap-o low-res borescope.

I have ordered some of the J-B compound from Brownells. I have also ordered some pure copper Chore Boy scrubbie pads.

Steve

[Joseph Plakis Jr, 00302V]

Many years ago I also used hot water to clean my musket. A fellow team member asked me to run a dry patch down it the next day after I cleaned the bore. to my amazement I had a dirty patch. He then told me the next time I shot the gun to clean my bore with "cold" water. I uses cold soapy water. The next day I ran a patch down & it came up clean. My team mate told me when you use hot water it causes the pores in the metal to trap dirt. When the barrel cools dirt is squeezed out. Now I use cold soapy water check the next day with a patch & it is clean. Right or wrong for over 50 years it works for me.
Joe Plakis Jr
Hampton Legion
00302V

[Don Dixon]

I've gone back and looked at my videos and while I can see some dark splotches that might be lead I'm really not sure what I'm looking at.

Look at the grey lines at the edges of the grooves just before and after about one minute into your video. That's lead fouling which is particularly evident at that point in the video. As you can see, it gets worse as you get closer to the muzzle. Out of curiosity, what are you using for lube?

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

Don may be right about the leading issue which can be addressed by the application of JB compound. There is probably a rust issue as well. Even if the active rust is removed, pitting will remain and trap fouling, contributing to more dirty patches. Joe's use of cold water is interesting. I normally pump hot water (with a little Lestoil & ammonia mixed in) through my barrels. The wet patch is followed by several dry patches which always come out clean and can be reused. After the bore is dry, I run a WD-40 soaked patch down the bore (mitigates any residual moisture) and follow that with a patch soaked with regular gun oil. The gun is put away until the next skirmish. Before shooting again I always run a dry patch down the bore to remove the oil. That patch may come out a bit oily but it is otherwise clean. If you clean your guns religiously as I do and don't let any rust/pitting get started, the temperature of the water should not matter.

Jim Burgess, 15th CVI

[Carolina Reb]

I use the same procedure as Jim and it has worked well. A couple shots of Windex or similar cleaner along with the water really helps. It's essentially detergent with some ammonia mixed in. Shooters Choice Lead Remover works great and it's not abrasive. If patches come out black, you have lead in there. When they come out honey/cinnamon colored, your bore is clean.

[Maillemaker]

Look at the grey lines at the edges of the grooves just before and after about one minute into your video. That's lead fouling which is particularly evident at that point in the video. As you can see, it gets worse as you get closer to the muzzle. Out of curiosity, what are you using for lube?

Thanks, Don. This is a Whitacre barrel so I believe it has progressive-depth rifling that gets shallower towards the muzzle, also.

I am using homemade lube of 50/50 Beeswax/Crisco, plus a little vegetable oil.


Don may be right about the leading issue which can be addressed by the application of JB compound. There is probably a rust issue as well. Even if the active rust is removed, pitting will remain and trap fouling, contributing to more dirty patches. Joe's use of cold water is interesting. I normally pump hot water (with a little Lestoil & ammonia mixed in) through my barrels. The wet patch is followed by several dry patches which always come out clean and can be reused. After the bore is dry, I run a WD-40 soaked patch down the bore (mitigates any residual moisture) and follow that with a patch soaked with regular gun oil. The gun is put away until the next skirmish. Before shooting again I always run a dry patch down the bore to remove the oil. That patch may come out a bit oily but it is otherwise clean. If you clean your guns religiously as I do and don't let any rust/pitting get started, the temperature of the water should not matter.

I always thought I was pretty meticulous about cleaning. I usually unship my barrels and put them breech-first in a utility sink full of water, and I go at them with a brass bristle brush, breech face scraper, and patches until the patches come out clean.

Today I took down my smoothbore musket (brand new, less than 100 rounds through it so no pitting) that I had cleaned yesterday, ran a dry patch down it today, and it came out dirty again. I usually finish oil the bore with Ballistol. I had cleaned this gun with hot water yesterday.

Steve

[Joseph Plakis Jr, 00302V]

Many years ago I also used hot water to clean my musket. A fellow team member asked me to run a dry patch down it the next day after I cleaned the bore. to my amazement I had a dirty patch. He then told me the next time I shot the gun to clean my bore with "cold" water. I uses cold soapy water. The next day I ran a patch down & it came up clean. My team mate told me when you use hot water it causes the pores in the metal to trap dirt. When the barrel cools dirt is squeezed out. Now I use cold soapy water check the next day with a patch & it is clean. Right or wrong for over 50 years it works for me.

The two things I forgot to mentions about my team mates suggestion was he bet me a case of beer that I would find a clean patch if I used soapy "cold water", and if someone suggests something and when you hear it you don't laugh and double up try it - IF IT DOES NOT WORK NEVER DO IT AGAIN! And yes it cost me a case of beer.

As for someone saying use Windex - A chemist that I gave fowling to, said straight ammonia would be the best, but the smell might be bad, I tried Windex it works, but I still use cold soapy water. By the way IF you use Windex I'll bet you use it COLD!!!!! Here is a question for you reinactors & history buffs - back in the civil war did they use hot water or cold water to clean their guns?????? I bet it was cold water!

When I am done shooting my musket, I take a rubber stopper & put it on the nipple. Then I put cold soapy water in the barrel, put a rubber cork in the muzzle. When I get home, I dump the dirty black soapy water & clean with cold soapy water. Like I said before, for over 50 years it works for me!

I used to use Blue Ointment to get out the leading. It worked great BUT you can not get that any more at the drugstore. I made my own with mercury and Vaseline. Don't get it on gold or the gold is trash. I wear rubber gloves when I use it.

Joe Plakis Jr
Hampton Legion
00302V

[Maillemaker]

I'm skeptical of the whole "porosity" thing with rifle barrels.

My suspicion is a hot barrel just rusts faster. I used to work a lot with "chainmail" armour. After washing them I would hang them on a rod and blow dry them with a leaf blower. Worked great. Once I was taking a contract job and was staying in a rental place. I had washed a maille shirt and decided to try and dry it in the oven. It came out bright orange with rust.

Heat accelerates most chemical reactions and iron oxidation is no exception.

I am surprised though to see this the next day after the barrel had been wiped with oil, which should prevent any oxidation.

Next time I shoot, I'm going to experiment with cleaning with cold water, and see if it makes a difference.

I'm also going to go pull my smoothbore and run a patch today on day 3 and see what I get.

[Carolina Reb]

"Management and Cleaning of the Rifle Musket, Model 1863" states "...pour a gill of water (warm if it can be had) into the muzzle..." I too would be willing to bet that in most cases they used cold water.

[Hal]

I suspect the heat helps rust form as well. I sandblasted a car fender in a humid south Georgia summer and it would rust almost as fast as I could get the paint blasted off of it. Other bare metal did not rust instantaneously, but that fender hot from the sand impact sure did.

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

I would agree that cold water was more often used to clean muskets during the Civil War. I've used cold water on occasion when hot was unavailable. The only advantage to hot water is it heats the metal and it takes fewer patches to dry the bore. My immediate application of WD-40 afterwards probably prevents the rust that others have encountered. One thing you definitely don't want to use is hydrogen peroxide. It cleans fouling very nicely but it will also rust metal instantly.

I never use a brush in a muzzleloader as the bristles will not reach the bottom of the bore. Bullets with adequate lube on them should negate the need to brush between relays during a match. Even if a scraper is used to clean the face of the breech screw, there's a good chance fouling can be missed around the sides of the breech. A good fitting patch on a cleaning rod jag is still the best tool to clean the breech area.

Jim Burgess, 15th CVI

[Bob Lintner]

Hot water leads to flash rusting. Try it for yourself and see. Sweets 7.62 is a good cleaner, follow directions and don't leave it in the barrel too long and don't use it a lot! I use water from the tap and don't have any problems. A squirt of Ivory dish soap in a bucket of cold water works good too. I use an air hose to dry metal parts, you can use canned air from Staples or some other office supply shop to get in the nooks and cranies followed by a rust preventer. I use Ballistol for short term storage and a gun oil for long term storage. Wash all traces of the gun oil out before shooting black powder. It works for me.

[Eggman]

I have I guess a somewhat different view of this cleaning patch phenomenon. Way way WAY back I was taught, or I formed the view, that part of the residue left over from black powder shooting is a salt compound. This is the highly corrosive residue that must be "got out." You do this with water,
So you give the barrel a good soaking/scrubbing. This eliminates the salt thing. So what you've got now is some iron with some carbon residue, or lead residue, or whatever still on it. This stuff is what is showing up on your cleaning patch. This stuff without the salt is "so what?????"
The iron still wants to rust. Put the new WD-40 gel on it - seal the metal off from the air. The gel will still be there three months from now - without any rust under it.

[Maillemaker]

I ran a patch down the smoothbore today (day 3) and nothing came out but Ballistol residue, so that is nice.

Right now my leading thought is flash rusting. Next time I shoot I'm going to try cleaning with cold water and see if it makes a difference.

Steve

[Muley Gil]

I clean with 50/50 Ballistol/water. When the bore is clean, I lube with Bore Butter. When I get ready to shoot, I run a dry patch down the barrel and then pop a few caps. No rust. I brush between relays at skirmishes, holding the musket upside down.

[Maillemaker]

So I cleaned my Armisport M1842 last week with cold water only.

With the breech end submerged in my utility sink full of cold water, I scrubbed it with a soapy brass bristle brush, and then followed pumping action with a patch and also used my breech face scraper. The patch was clean in the water. This was my usual cleaning routine.

Then I ran 2 patches down to dry the barrel.

The 2 patches on the left are from drying:
https://i.imgur.com/7qXKpXel.jpg

Then I ran a Ballistol patch down. That is the patch on the right above.

Next I used a pure-copper Chore Boy scrubber over my cleaning rod jag with a patch between the jag and the copper mesh.

I then ran another Ballistol patch down twice. This is what that patch looked like after scrubbing with the Chore Boy:

https://i.imgur.com/8OfpTn1l.jpg

So, I don't think the issue is heat-related.

My ammo is an RCBS .678 round ball roughed up and double-dipped in Lee Alox.

All I can think here is leading. I did not think that our velocities were high enough to get appreciable leading.

I've got a couple of other muskets I don't shoot much hanging on the wall. I'm going to go clean their barrels the same way and see if I get similar dirty patches after "cleaning" the barrel.

Steve

[Don Dixon]

All I can think here is leading. I did not think that our velocities were high enough to get appreciable leading.

Black powder ignites at 392 F (200 C) and burns at 801 F (427 C) according to GOEX's data sheets. Lead melts at 621 F (327 C). So, you are going to have some vaporization of the lead in the bullet from the heat of the burning powder. Some of he vaporized lead will deposit on the cooler surface of the barrel. Lead from vaporization and from primers is largely why one has a lead "dust" problem in indoor ranges. The higher teperatures of smokeless powder only makes it worse.

Then you have the roughness of the barrel. Even the smoothest barrel will have tool marks which will catch lead from the passing bullet. The more roughness, pitting, or fouling that you have in the bore the worse the leading.

A simple solution is to use greased paper cartridge wrappers as the British and Continental armies did. That materially reduces leading. But, the N-SSA quite stupidly won't let us use those original cartridge designs.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[bobanderson]

"My ammo is an RCBS .678 round ball roughed up and double-dipped in Lee Alox."

I stopped using alox 3 years ago. It seemed like it didn't help with accuracy and greatly added to the fouling. I rough my balls a specific number of "passes" between two Farrier's files and pass each ball down a 6" length of barrel as a gauge before I load it in the tube. I concluded that the fouling was the fault of the alox and the powder I used at the time, Goex 3f and then Swiss 3f. Once I switched to Goex Express, now Olde Eynsford, the fouling almost stopped completely. I remember my on first test, I fired 24 consecutive shots in my H&P without brushing or wiping.

I've told this tale here in the past. Not sure if anyone really believed me but I've demonstrated it here in the NWT and I've got some converts.

[Maillemaker]

I'm using 70 grains 3F Goex.

I can tell that fouling is an issue and you can feel a ring in the barrel where it hits.

But, I get fantastic accuracy, so I can live with the fouling. Who knows when Goex products will be readily available again. Hopefully when I run out of what I have they will be back in action again and maybe they will sell Goex Express.

Steve

[Sven205]

https://i.imgur.com/8OfpTn1l.jpg

So, I don't think the issue is heat-related.

My ammo is an RCBS .678 round ball roughed up and double-dipped in Lee Alox.

All I can think here is leading. I did not think that our velocities were high enough to get appreciable leading.

I've got a couple of other muskets I don't shoot much hanging on the wall. I'm going to go clean their barrels the same way and see if I get similar dirty patches after "cleaning" the barrel.

Steve

I have been using cold soapy water for cleaning lately (soap used is "Awesome" all-purpose cleaner) and haven't had an issue with flash rusting since. Plain water seems to work ok too. Only had flash rust issues when using HOT water, and also with the cleaner below.

I received this stuff pictured free with an online order from Midway, i'm not necessarily recommending it! I cleaned two rifles and a smooth-bore with it and it seemed to work fine. Patches were clean on the rifled bores after a reasonable number of passes. Took a few extra on the SB. Went to lunch for about 30 minutes and came back to run Ballistol through them. All three had red rust on the patches, my error for letting them sit I guess. This was worse than the hot water flash rusting i've had in the past. Much faster, I think.

It seems this "MZL" bore cleaner is alcohol based by the smell, so im guessing it evaporates quickly after stripping the crud out. Lesson learned here for me, oil immediately after drying no matter the method!

Since this was your smooth bore, I'm curious what your results will be with cold water on rifled bores. It does look like some leading... could it be the Alox causing issues?

11922

[MR. GADGET]

I don't even clean my guns and never seen a patch that bad...... LOL.
:grin:

I will say this. I only use distilled water. No tap,.no well water.

I have seen the metal,.iron and other minerals along with chemicals react and cause problems and rust in barrels.

I do a mix of 50/50 Ballistol and distilled water. It works great.

[hawkeye2]

When I lived in Winchester I cleaned in a bucket of hot tap water and Dawn and got flash rusting and a discoloration on the polished exterior of the barrel which cleaned off with WD-40. Since I live here in the woods I still clean the same way except I use hot well water. No more flash rust or discoloration.

If you grew up in the 50s you would know that fluoridation is a Commie plot to bring America to its knees. :)

[Hal]

It's working.......

[Maillemaker]

So...cleaning after last weekend's skirmish and seeing the same type of results on the patches after cleaning 2 smoothbores. They seem clean in the sink, but the dry patches come out filthy. I do more Ballistol patches then the Chore Boy, and then more Ballistol patches that are again dirty.

Now this is anecdotal, and probably meaningless, but I felt like I was getting my good-old accuracy with my Enfield on Saturday during individuals. Good enough for 1st place 50 yard, 100 yard, and Musket Agg.

Sunday I couldn't hit squat again. But, I was pretty tired.

I'm thinking it takes much more aggressive cleaning than I have been doing over the years.

Steve

[daloy]

Were you ever able to solve this problem?

[Maillemaker]

Not really.

I also noticed last weekend at a skirmish that on the musket pigeon board I went like 1 for 10. Shot a group so close all around it it looked like I was trying to cut it out of the cardboard.

Went back to the bench and cleaned with brass brush.

Did awesome the rest of the courses of fire.

Now, I also told myself to "trust the sights" after the first relay, instead of second guessing where I was hitting.

https://i.imgur.com/SbCOlPjl.jpg

Did the scrubbing help? Or was it all a mind game?

Ah, the mysteries of black powder.

I am thinking that leading is more of an issue than I used to think possible for guns in our velocity range.

Steve

[Muley Gil]

Ah Steve, you were suffering from "poltergeist pigeon" syndrome. When you fire, the pigeons on the board shift slightly, then go back to their original position. I've suffered from "PP" all of my skirmishing career, so don't feel alone in this.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it! :D

[Maillemaker]

Darn moving pigeons! :)

Steve

[daloy]

thanks for the reply

[Hal]

I'm convinced that some pigeons and tiles are just defective and will not break.

[DaveCVG]

We all should thank Mr. Plakis for sharing his hot water versus cold water experience ... cold wins. And here's why. (1) The combustion product in our barrels are basically Potassium Sulfide (K2S). (2) When you clean the barrel with cold water, you wash-out the Potassium Sulfide. (3) When you attempt to clean with hot water, you cause a chemical reaction ... Potassium Sulfide + Hot Water yields Potassium Hydroxide (a solid, KOH) + Potassium Sulfate (a solid, KSH). I cleaned my first barrel in 1973 using cold water advice from several CVG members, and it always worked.

Hot water is better for "ionic dissolution" ... you know, putting table salt in water yields Sodium Ions (Na+) and Chlorine Ions (Cl-) ... and hot water is faster-working than cold water in such reactions. But, bore cleaning in hot water is not "ionic" ... it is a "chemical process" that creates two new (and dirty) compounds.

Oh ... to finish, super-tiny metal flaws do not trap dirt one day and pucker-out dirt the next.

Respectfully/ Good and Safe Shooting at the National'
DaveCVG