Scheutzen Powder

[Jim Leinicke 7368V]

With the demise of Goex, we are looking about for alternative loads for skirmish guns. Swiss clearly works, and I am getting as good or better using Swiss behind my .575 wadcutter minies. But what about Scheutzen? I routinely use that stuff in my round ball rifles and it is as good or better than anything else. But in a minie rifle I have had no luck at all with it. Does anyone have any advice on the use of Scheutzen in their rifle-musket? I am using a Hoyt barrel and a Rapine wadcutter minie and can't get on the paper.
Jim Leinicke, 7369V
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[Maillemaker]

Hi Jim,

A lot of folks swear by Schuetzen, especially for BP cartridges.

Some years ago I purchased the Moose Wilkinson bullet and was trying to do load workups for it. Back Creek was out of Goex at the time, as I recall, so I bought Schuetzen powder instead.

I almost gave up on the Moose Wilkinson bullet because after about 3 shots the loading got very crunchy due to fouling. The Moose Wilkinson has very limited lube carrying capability.

Then I got more Goex. Suddenly I could shoot the Moose Wilkinson pretty much indefinitely.

So, my limited use of Schuetzen lead me to believe it was a dirtier powder than Goex.

Steve

[Jim Leinicke 7368V]

I find Scheutzen to be excellent in any application where there is relatively high breech pressure. This includes most blackpowder cartridges and patched round ball rifles. In our experience, it is tops in patched ball guns, producing tight groups and soft fouling. But trying it in my skirmish rifle it was worthless and wouldn't put a bullet on paper. When I switch to Swiss the rifle shoots great. I have yet to find anyone who likes Scheutzen in a smoothbore or minie rifle, both firearms with low breech pressures.

[Hal]

What Steve said...

"So, my limited use of Schuetzen lead me to believe it was a dirtier powder than Goex."

[PoorJack]

Well, Schuetzen supports our work with youth in muzzleloading. We've done load development that conforms to the policy of the youth organizations we work with and here's the groups we're getting with 3f Schuetzen. Group was shot offhand at 50yd with a total of 10 shots. Each grid square is 1in so other than the flyer on the right, offhand group size is a tad over 2in offhand. If you aren't getting good groups, you might want to experiment a bit. Load was RCBS Hogdon sized 580, 45g 3f Schuetzen, beeswax/lard lube, Schuetzen caps. Gun was a Zoli Zouave.

11630

[Eggman]

I'm firmly in the camp of lotsa lotsa lube ALL THE TIME in our black powder guns. ALL black powder residue is "crunchy." You must have lube to keep it soft and keep firing. In my view firing any type of bullet without lube is a walk down the primrose path; and advising folks to use a bullet (from a very expensive mold) you cannot lube to me is asking a person to take an incredible leap of faith.

[John Westenberger]

From what I've read, it's definitely more picky on lube than Goex. Especially the 2f, the 3f seems to be very comparable to Goex 3f. The older reviews (pre 2011 or so, yes, that's old to me!) are very critical, and say it's very, very dirty. The newer reviews are generally more positive. I know a lot of people LOVE it in smoothies, but there isn't much out there on Muskets or Carbines, since we've always had Goex. However...

I've used it quite a bit, both in testing, practice, and skirmish. My Smith doesn't notice the difference between Goex and Schuetzen, at all. My Zouave also doesn't mind it. It still groups about the same, and uses the same powder loads (They're almost identical power-wise). I use 2f in both my Smith (Moose Smith-Maynard, its like 400ish grains?), and my Zouave (Moose Wad, it's 315 grains). I will say, the Zouave is a little dirtier, not enough to notice in a single event, but through the course of several, you'll want to brush it out, it does get tight. But even with Goex, I was never a "Just set the rammer on the bullet and let it drop!" guy. It was always tight.

As with all powders, your results may vary. It seems Schuetzen, it's especially true.

[Maillemaker]

and advising folks to use a bullet (from a very expensive mold) you cannot lube to me is asking a person to take an incredible leap of faith.

It's true that a lot of lube can make up for a lot of sins. Hence the RCBS Hodgdon bullet that can carry a pound of lube per shot! :)

But the benefits of the Moose Wilkinson are undeniable for me. It's a double-cavity mold, so you can double your production rate while casting. It also pours easily and extremely consistently with a bottom-pour pot. I have given up on trying bottom pour for any hollow-cavity bullet and believe you pretty much have to ladle-pour them to get consistent weights out of your batch. I hate ladle-pouring because it's slow, messy, and you churn the melt so much you generate a ton of dross which is wasted lead since I don't try and reclaim it*. Then, of course, the bullet shoots wonderfully in my Whitcare P53 barrel and my Hoyt Richmond Carbine barrel. So, for me, the Moose Wilkinson is the best muzzle loading bullet I have yet to come across.

Steve


*You can reclaim dross by heating it at very high temperatures - high enough to break the lead/oxygen bonds, in the presence of charcoal (carbon), which more readily bonds to the free oxygen creating CO and CO2 and leaving behind the lead. This is more hassle to me than it's worth.

[Jim Leinicke 7368V]

Gentlemen, I really appreciate your responses on this. It would appear that I need to take out the old Mississippi Rifle and give Scheutzen 3fg another go, perhaps with a heavier charge. The advice on lube is also very helpful.
Jim Leinicke, 7368v

[Hal]

Steve,

I just 'flux' my pot with a small piece of beeswax and stir vigorously, and the vast majority of the 'dross' mixes (Maybe "Reduces" is the correct word?) back in. I have tried the heavy layer of charcoal (Burnt sawdust) on top of my smelting pot to try to get powdered lead from my bullet trap to melt back but had little success. I believe the powdered lead from my trap is likely lead oxide and not just lead. I do use the sawdust as a flux when smelting and it works for dross but not for what I believe is lead oxide powder.

[Maillemaker]

Hi Hal,

It is my opinion that fluxing pure lead achieves no real purpose. When lead is exposed to the air, it, like most metals, oxidizes due to binding with the oxygen in the air. Heat accelerates this process. So molten lead will readily oxidize with the exposed surface of the melt being exposed to air.

Placing a barrier on top of the melt (a layer of charcoal, or sawdust (which quickly turns into charcoal), or anything else which prevents the lead from being exposed to the air, will help reduce oxidation. I've actually been meaning to make a little "lid" to set on top of my Lee-420 melt surface (steel will float on the lead) with a notch to clear the valve stem. Obviously this will not work if ladle pouring. Even "fluxing" with beeswax will leave an oily film for some seconds which can appear to leave a nice shiny melt surface. But this burns away in a minute or so and now in addition to lead oxide you have burned organic material floating on top of your melt.

I believe it is in the US Ordnance manuals where they describe how to reclaim dross. Basically you heat it in a furnace with charcoal to very high temperatures (probably glowing - way higher than casting temperatures). When heated to this temperature, the oxygen/lead bond is broken and the oxygen is free to fly away. By having carbon in the mix, the free oxygen would rather bond with the carbon than the lead, making CO and CO2, leaving pure lead behind.

I don't think the chemical reaction to reduce lead oxide back to lead can be achieved at melting temperatures.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

OK Hal, I'm going to have to eat some crow.

Tonight, I had a good pile of dross on top of my pot, so I fluxed in some beeswax. Did it three times. Put 3 good-sized chunks in each time (about half the size of my thumb). In fact, the amount of dross seems to have been reduced by 2/3rds afterwards.

Steve

[Hal]

Glad it worked for you. I don't have to use very much, but I do stir the everloving heck out out of it until there is actually a whirlpool going. That seems to reduce most of the dross back into the melt pretty well for me. There is usually still a little stuff to scoop off the surface, but it is usually just fine dust, not stuff that looks like silver oatmeal.

[rchristopher]

With the demise of Goex, we are looking about for alternative loads for skirmish guns. Swiss clearly works, and I am getting as good or better using Swiss behind my .575 wadcutter minies. But what about Scheutzen? I routinely use that stuff in my round ball rifles and it is as good or better than anything else. But in a minie rifle I have had no luck at all with it. Does anyone have any advice on the use of Scheutzen in their rifle-musket? I am using a Hoyt barrel and a Rapine wadcutter minie and can't get on the paper.
Jim Leinicke, 7369V
.

You're not alone. I too, was forced into using Schuetzen with GOEX out of production and the difference was very noticeable. I was getting tight groups with 40g FFF GOEX with my Whitacre barrel on my '63 Springfield. I took it to the range yesterday using Schuetzen for the time (40g FFF) and could barely hit the paper! Flyers all over the place! I wont be using it again in my '63. Too erratic. I'm going to give Swiss a try next.

[rchristopher]

Well, Schuetzen supports our work with youth in muzzleloading. We've done load development that conforms to the policy of the youth organizations we work with and here's the groups we're getting with 3f Schuetzen. Group was shot offhand at 50yd with a total of 10 shots. Each grid square is 1in so other than the flyer on the right, offhand group size is a tad over 2in offhand. If you aren't getting good groups, you might want to experiment a bit. Load was RCBS Hogdon sized 580, 45g 3f Schuetzen, beeswax/lard lube, Schuetzen caps. Gun was a Zoli Zouave.

11630 That's a great group. And experimenting is worth a try. I have a Whitacre barrel on my '63 and I think the Zouave's have a faster rate of twist (also something to consider). I was shooting a RCBS Hodgdon 1.5 /1000 under with 45g and it was so erratic after 10 shots I quit trying. Made the paper 3 times. Like I was saying before, My GOEX yielded tight groups with same mini? and grains. I'll tweak my charges and mini? style and see if that helps.

[tackdriver]

What Steve said...

"So, my limited use of Schuetzen lead me to believe it was a dirtier powder than Goex."

Yup. I have the same experience. Even my ramroad becomes dirtier than it did with Goex.... I guess it's the type of wood the use to make the charcoal??

[Maillemaker]

Type of wood makes a difference in the end product, but I suspect the cooking mechanism also makes a difference. While you can make charcoal with rather crude setups, I suspect that good, consistent powder is made with a fairly controlled cook in terms of temperature and time.

Steve