Buffalo Arms .520 Spencer bullet

[gemmer]

Have any Spencer shooters used this bullet and had issues with the narrow lube grooves? I bought a box of these to try in my .50-70 roller which has an oversize groove depth and I wanted to try them before springing for a mould.

[mgmradio]

I use them for my Spencer?s and they are very accurate. I normally shoot smokeless loads using Unique, but have used black powder loads with no real problems, though probably not enough lube for rifle length barrel. Be aware that the loose bullets you can buy from Buffalo arms are different from the ones from the moulds they sell.

[Eggman]

Using "Unique" smokeless powder in a Spencer, a BLACK POWDER gun. Hmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

I've used light charges of Unique (12 grains or less) in my .50-70 Sharps and .45-70 trapdoors with no problem. You have to be very careful to avoid double charges in the larger cartridges. I haven't tried it yet in my original .56-56 Spencer but a lighter charge (7 grains+/-) in the shorter case should be safe. Trail Boss is another good powder for reduced loads.

Jim Burgess, 15th CVI

[Lou Lou Lou]

In the North East Battle Troop skirmishes, folks normally used around 10 grains of Unique in the Trapdoors.
back on Walt Taylor?s farm in PA

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

I agree with Jim and Lou. Loads like that came right out of the Lyman manual of my youth in the 60's before everybody went lawyer proof.

[Eggman]

Follow along for the Ho Chi Minh trail of powder discussion.

[noonanda]

Using "Unique" smokeless powder in a Spencer, a BLACK POWDER gun. Hmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!

Is it a reproduction Spencer? These are not listed as "Black Powder only" firearms. So they could use smokeless powder loads. Now if we are discussing an original spencer I cannot speak to that.

[gemmer]

I didn't mean to start a smokeless thread. All I want to know is if anyone has had issues with the narrow grease grooves using BLACK POWDER.

[mgmradio]

To answer noonanda, yes I use Unique in all my original Spencer?s. 8.5gr in my 56-56 rifles and 56-50 carbines. I use 9gr?s in my heavy barreled 56-50. Muzzle velocity is around 1050fps in the riffles and 970fps in the carbines. I have shot hundreds of rounds through all of them with no problems. Cases show no signs of over pressure.

[Eggman]

I agree with Jim and Lou. Loads like that came right out of the Lyman manual of my youth in the 60's before everybody went lawyer proof.
Yeah I think back with nostalgia to those days when muzzle loaders were the latest hot item and a guy named John Baird formed an organization called the National Association of Primitive Riflemen partly to insure proper use so that folks would stop blowing their hands off or their fingers off. "BLACK POWDER ONLY started being stamped on most of these guns for some unknown reason --- I'm not sure why -- must be something to do with lawyers. Anyway, now we have folks dedicated to scraping that useless information off.
Anyway we have lots of interesting information here. Remember GOEX is gone so we can't readily get BP anymore, so what to do next might become a big issue. I'm not sure what Snuffy reading this right now will remember down the line --- perhaps something to the affect about some guys on that CW website out of Virginia said substituting smokeless is just fine. I can't remember which exact guns they sited, but I know there were several. We'll try some different charges to see which one groups best.
Eventually when someone hands you their head this thread will take on new meaning.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, Gemmer:

As to your lube groove capacity question:

Yes, there have been problems with the lube capacity of some 50 Spencer bullets using black powder in longer barrels.

The CAS/SSS Forum includes Spencer Shooting Society ("SSS"). Within it is a section, Spencer Oft Requested Information ("SORI"). SORI posts include lube adequacy issues unless ther lube groove is wide and deep, as are some from Accurate Bullet Molds, Larry Romano, Mike Owsiak and Rapine's 350T bullet. Lyman's with multiple narrow grooves have been tested and found to run out of accuracy after five to seven shots because of inadequate lube capacity in 30" Spencer barrels. This was also reported in a 2021 article, "Spencer Found In A Cave", in Blackpowder Cartridge News Magazine when a Lyman 515xxx bullet was tested. The Rapine 350T was developed for and works well in the Armisport Spencer RIFLE length bbl. That mould is not currently produced by MOOSE, but maybe he can do one for you. Otherwise, select one from Accurate or Owsiak. Larry Romano is not currently making or supplying his Spencer bullet moulds Accurate's work is fine and works well for me. Mike Owsiak may still do his great brass Spencer moulds. Search here for his contact info. A couple active skirmishers on our Forum have been deeply into Spencer bullet design. There is an article in The Skirmish Line showing their Spencer accuracy work and results. Herrick, Leineke and Beck come to mind. Search.

I suggest the wide, deep single lube designs with a widely used BP lubes preferred by BPCR shooters. These include SPG, MCM and home-brews such as N-Lube.

By the way, i had a nice chat with the current owner and maker of SPG last week. He assured me that SPG is mostly beeswax with oils, but contain NO TALLOW, so unless abused by poor storage, it won't become rancid. Still, being an avid BPCR competitor, he lubes twp weeks prior to use to avoid any issues with lube shelf life. A prior owner of SPG, Steve Garby, had told shooters that SPG contained sheep tallow. Nope, that was a humorous ruse!
Edited for typo's.

All the best,
Kevin Tinny

[Harry Gaul]

I am jumping in to add my thoughts on the matter that you may consider or reject. When it comes to bullets styles and grooves, size matters. Many on this forum advocate one to two thousands over groove size for accurate shooting, and they have the targets to prove it. From a scientific point of view, two things can not occupy the same space at the same time lube or no lube. One to two thousandths over groove size and accurate should not happen, but it does. Why? When the oversize bullet goes down the barrel, the lead has to go somewhere. I am suggesting that the extra lead goes into the grooves so groove size matters! A quick survey of this forum will suggest that the Wilkerson bullet is or becomes accurate IF one does not lube the single groove in the bullet or some variation there of. Remember, the lead has to go somewhere and even lube will block the movement of lead because two things can not occupy the same space at the same time. I shoot my firearms bullet undersize and let the lube and fouling do the sealing after a few shots. I am not a real good shooter, but I break my share of targets. Practice! Practice! Practice! If shooting bullets with oversizing and groove size works, great, and one can not argue with success. Knowledge is power and ignorance is bliss. Your call.

Harry in Pa.
03626v

[gemmer]

I am jumping in to add my thoughts on the matter that you may consider or reject. When it comes to bullets styles and grooves, size matters. Many on this forum advocate one to two thousands over groove size for accurate shooting, and they have the targets to prove it. From a scientific point of view, two things can not occupy the same space at the same time lube or no lube. One to two thousandths over groove size and accurate should not happen, but it does. Why? When the oversize bullet goes down the barrel, the lead has to go somewhere. I am suggesting that the extra lead goes into the grooves so groove size matters! A quick survey of this forum will suggest that the Wilkerson bullet is or becomes accurate IF one does not lube the single groove in the bullet or some variation there of. Remember, the lead has to go somewhere and even lube will block the movement of lead because two things can not occupy the same space at the same time. I shoot my firearms bullet undersize and let the lube and fouling do the sealing after a few shots. I am not a real good shooter, but I break my share of targets. Practice! Practice! Practice! If shooting bullets with oversizing and groove size works, great, and one can not argue with success. Knowledge is power and ignorance is bliss. Your call.

Harry in Pa.
03626vWell, I was thinking about using a grease cookie. I guess I?ll try that.