Lubricatiing Wilkinson bullets?

[fullertc]

I plugged in "Lubricating Wilkinson bullets" in the Search field but only found a discussion on quality of Union and Confederate gun powder. I see Don Dixon had an article on it but could not locate. Thank you.

[Maillemaker]

For the Moose Wilkinson, I dip the bottom flange of the bullet in lube.

You do not want to pack the big groove full of grease because, being a compression bullet, that is where the lead compresses to, and if it's full of lube it can't compress.

Steve

[fullertc]

For the Moose Wilkinson, I dip the bottom flange of the bullet in lube.

You do not want to pack the big groove full of grease because, being a compression bullet, that is where the lead compresses to, and if it's full of lube it can't compress.

Steve
That's what I recall reading the threads years ago when I bought the mould. Right now I can fire 3x and then the barrel cokes up having to pound the bullet down with the ramrod. A good group opens up. I will switch to some fresh lube and keep working on it. Thank you.

[Eggman]

For the Moose Wilkinson, I dip the bottom flange of the bullet in lube.

You do not want to pack the big groove full of grease because, being a compression bullet, that is where the lead compresses to, and if it's full of lube it can't compress.

Steve
Really got the synapsis snapping with this one Steve. Can't believe the lube wont ooze out into the rifling while transiting the bore -- that the seal seals that thoroughly. Lube and more lube is essential to the multiple shot shooting we do.
In another thread I mentioned "reefers." There are no such thing as "reefers" anymore. Now it's "doobies."

[Maillemaker]

What powder are you using?

When I first got my Moose Wilkinson mold, I had, coincidentally, just bought a bunch of Schuetzen powder because I could not get Goex. I almost gave up on the Wilkinson bullet because I could only get off about 3 shots before it got crunchy in the bore on loading.

Switched back to Goex, and now I can shoot the Wilkinson 12-14 shots no problem in a 5 minute course of fire. I could probably shoot longer than that.

I'm shooting them in a Euroarms P53 with Whitacre barrel and a JRA Richmond Carbine with Hoyt barrel, though the Richmond still seems to do best with the RCBS Hodgdon. I don't shoot it much anymore as I now shoot a Sharps in carbine.

I shoot the Moose Wilkinson in my P53 with 50 grains 3F Goex.

Here is an "old" bullet that has been lubed a couple of months:
https://i.imgur.com/a4eq1FWl.jpg

Whatever I don't shoot in the last skirmish I just save until the next. Seem to do OK.

Steve

[Don Dixon]

fullertc,

The forum's search engine is somewhat problematic. Go to a thread entitled "Minie Ball Thoughts" started by Poor Jack on 12/14/2017. I think that my posts on that thread will give you the information you need on shooting System Lorenz compression bullets. A synopsis:

Sizing: .001 - .002 inches under bore diameter. .001 is better. Measure the bore with machinist's plug gauges, not with a caliper. Lorenz's design is quite good, but it is very sensitive to fit of bullet to bore.

Lubrication is critical: Very soft lube. I like MCM. Lubricate very lightly. One quick swish of the base of the bullet through melted lube. DON'T USE A LUBRICIZER. IF YOU FILL THE COMPRESSION GROOVE(S), THE BULLET CANNOT COMPRESS AND WILL SHOOT INACCURATELY, as in the bullets will go into the target sideways. There is not enough depth in the rifling in the barrel to take the lubrication if you overfill the compression grooves with lubricant. With this bullet too much lube will result in failure.

Powder: Use enough to compress the bullet under all weather conditions. A minimum of 45 grs of Swiss FFFg is my load in my guns, or at least 50 grs of GOEX FFFg. Swiss is MUCH cleaner and performs better. You my need more with your gun(s). its unlikely you will need less.

Loading: Push the bullet firmly down on the powder. Rely on the explosion of the powder to compress the bullet. Maybe one light tap of the ramrod. You don't need to beat on it with the ramrod like one sees some shooters do with their Minies. All that does is deform the bullet.

If your rifle has a good bore and you do the above, you can shoot all day without having to brush the bore, since the Lorenz bullet is very effective at scrapping fouling out of the bore. Think of the Williams cleaner bullet, which in many respects is a comparable design. I've shot well over a hundred rounds in practice without having to brush or clean my barrel.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[ms3635v]

I have been shooting the Moose Wilkinson for ten years now. I size mine to .5765 and lube just the bottom base with MCM lube. I use 40 grains of GOEX 3F. I can fire at least ten shots before I swab the barrel. Also, I found that you have carefully check the bases after casting. If the base does not completely fill out there is a chance that you may get flyers.

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

I have learned that about the bases. If they aren't fully formed with the mold block you get blow by before full expansion into the grooves. When I'm casting them I check that as soon as the sprue is cut. Any tiny gap between bullet base and mold and it goes back in the pot. I load them in the tubes then dip the base just to the tiny grease groove leaving the lube on the base of the bullet and sit them on a piece of wax paper to dry. For lube I using beeswax, Crisco and a touch of olive oil to keep it pliable. 35 grs of 3F Swiss and I only do a breech scrape and brushing, with the butt up, between relays. It'll run all day.

[Tom Magno, 9269V]

Tom, I've been shooting the Eddington Wilkinson in my .54 Mississippi for almost 20 years now. I was one of the original beta testers for that bullet. It is a single wedge design with a "fletching groove" around the base ring. I think the Moose version is very similar. Here's what I've learned from my first season using it that has carried me well ever since. First, and this is probably redundant and common knowledge - pure lead only. No alloys. Size the bullet through a push-sizer from the base to .001-.002 under bore size. Sizing them in a lube sizer base down pushing from the nose deforms them and starts compressing the 'wedge' resulting in a poor shooting bullet. In my case I size them to .539 for a .540 bore. They drop from my mould at right at .5395 so it doesn't take much off but it does make the bullet perfectly concentric. Load your powder into your tubes and press the bullet in nose first same as a minnie, keeping the wedge exposed. I then dip in melted MCM - lube past the wedge to the tube (to seal out weather), but do not fill the wedge. A single dip and it's done. When loading to shoot, it drops down the barrel fairly easily - and the first couple drop on their own. Subsequent rounds drop from the weight of the ramrod alone. Push down to seat on the powder but to not slam it down. A tap or two (lightly) is all that's need to ensure the powder is compressed and bullet is seated. If you pop the rammer on it, similar to how some do with their minnies, it will (1) deform the nose, (2) pre-compress the bullet and (3) possibly tilt it in the bore - any one of these 3 things will cause it to shoot terribly and you will think you have a bad bullet/gun combo. Not true - it shoots very, very well in my .54 using the techniques above - my barrel is an original, Hoyt lined 7-groove barrel at .540. I shoot it accurately (even in the wind!) to 100 yards with 41.5 grains of 3F Goex. It flies faster than the 58's with the same load so it scoots downrange pretty fast - I've never chronographed it however, so I don't know what FPS it shoots. The wind rarely affects it much more than an inch or two, and only if the wind is howling. Supported from a bench it truly shoots one ragged hole at 50 yards. My gun is fully glass bedded... Offhand it shoots exactly where its pointed - to my downfall usually....Ask your teammate Dan about it - he's seen me shoot it. Can't comment on how they shoot in a .58 or other than a 7-groove barrel, only relaying my experience.. Should carry over to any caliber/barrel combination in my estimation.
Good luck and feel free to PM me with any questions.
Tom Magno
R.Preston Chew's Battery

[FirinFlatTop]

anyone have a .54 wilkinson mould they would like to get rid of?

[Maillemaker]

Sizing them in a lube sizer base down pushing from the nose deforms them and starts compressing the 'wedge' resulting in a poor shooting bullet.

This is a good point. I size mine with a luberisizer and if the bullet is even the slightest offset from the sizing die it will scrape or even bend that side of the flange. I tend to pre-drop the plunger so that the base of the bullet kind of self-centers in the sizing die before plunging it down.

I think a nose-first sizer would be better, but I don't have one in .576 (what I shoot).

Steve

[Don Dixon]

To repeat. Don't use a lubrisizer on "Wilkinson" bullets. It pre-compresses the bullets and defeats Ritter von Lorenz's design, purely aside from the fact that it puts grease in the compression groove(s) where you really don't want it and which further compromises compression.

[Eggman]

I plugged in "Lubricating Wilkinson bullets" in the Search field but only found a discussion on quality of Union and Confederate gun powder. I see Don Dixon had an article on it but could not locate. Thank you.
I believe the original title was, "Treading the Winding Road to Insanity: Shooting the Wilkinson Bullet." It came out about the same time as its companion article, "Treading the Winding Road to Insanity [Part 2]; Shooting the Percussion Sharps Carbine." One of the better known quotes as to the latter from posterity was by one Rufus Griswold, describing long time Sharps shooters who "walked the streets, in madness or melancholy, with lips moving in indistinct curses."

[Maillemaker]

To repeat. Don't use a lubrisizer on "Wilkinson" bullets. It pre-compresses the bullets and defeats Ritter von Lorenz's design, purely aside from the fact that it puts grease in the compression groove(s) where you really don't want it and which further compromises compression.

I don't use mine for lubing, just sizing.

I'm not sure how you can avoid compressing the bullet somewhat when you drive it through a sizing die either nose-first or tail first. Though I could see that driving it nose-first would require less force. I agree a nose-first sizer is the way to go.

Steve

[Eggman]

I know there have been numerous sizing discussions on this forum. Whether one compensates with variations in lubrication, or sublimates with sizing projections, it is a difficult issue to get a grip on. Often group discussions a beneficial.