Burnside 5th

[Lee Willy]

Have a nice Burnside out of my collection and would like to shoot it.
Need advice on what i need to get this done?
My bore is .0542 and would like to know what roundball i should buy?
I was told buy f f black powder? I have purchased some of the nylon cartridges
for carbine to see if it will shoot them. My Burnside is in excellent condition and
have complete confidence it is safe to fire.
I am in Winchester, Va. Looking for help

[John.Hayes]

Try a .562 round ball and 40 grs FF to start. Then play around with adding grits and reducing powder to see what your results are. Keep every group you fire, with copious notes as to load, projectile, grits, distance, etc., in a file folder for that gun. This helps you not make the same mistake twice. Good luck, they are fun to shoot. jh

[Lee Willy]

Try a .562 round ball and 40 grs FF to start. Then play around with adding grits and reducing powder to see what your results are. Keep every group you fire, with copious notes as to load, projectile, grits, distance, etc., in a file folder for that gun. This helps you not make the same mistake twice. Good luck, they are fun to shoot. jh

Hello John,
Thanks for the help, but what is the thing about grits? On you tube the person shows just loading powder
in the casing and placing ball on top with wax and chambering it and them firing?
If my bore is 0542 then wouldn't a .562 be too big?

[Old Hickory]

Grits/Cream of Wheat, used as a neutral filler between the powder and ball/bullet to simply take up space to insure some compression of the powder, (you want NO air space between powder and projectile when using black powder).

[Lee Willy]

Grits/Cream of Wheat, used as a neutral filler between the powder and ball/bullet to simply take up space to insure some compression of the powder, (you want NO air space between powder and projectile when using black powder).

They do not show that on youtube. They load their nylon cartridge with powder and set ball on top with their butter then chamber it and cap
and fire. How was this loaded during the war?

[Old Hickory]

They do not show that on youtube. They load their nylon cartridge with powder and set ball on top with their butter then chamber it and cap
and fire. How was this loaded during the war?

It wasn't. John Hayes was simply telling you to use a filler when loading reduced loads. You don't want any air space in your cartridges due to the nature of black powder, it should be compressed with no air space. Same with a muzzle loading rifle or musket, ram the projectile down firmly on the powder charge, allow for no air space.

Burnside, Smith, Maynard, Sharps, etc. The ammunition came preloaded in cartridges for issue, no air space. What the prescribed load was, unless a card or some other filler was used, the powder was slightly compressed by the bullet. This same rule stands for rim fire and center fire cartridges loaded with black powder, and any reduced loads contained a filler of some sort. If not, you risk bulging the barrel or worse. It essentially becomes a pipe bomb. John Hayes gave you good solid advice.

[John.Hayes]

Sorry, I should have given a fuller response. Some guns like FFFg powder also, so try every combination at hand before giving up. Burnsides are finicky at times. I have also rolled my .562 round balls between two files and dipped them in melted lube. I sit them down on an old washcloth to soak up the excess from the bottom and put that side (sprue up or down) toward the grits and have had good results. As to diameter, I have had success with round balls of that diameter and have been playing with an Accurate Moulds .562 bullet lately and have had no trouble, except loading the base of the bullets into the nylon case. I have slightly beveled the heel and now they go in much more easily. I ruined 3 cases before I figured out that obvious solution. The Burnside is an ingenious design. Have fun and good luck with yours! jh

[Lou Lou Lou]

Lee
Why not visit us a Ft. Shenandoah on Rte 522. The Saturday carbine match at Nationals will have many Burnsides competing. Jut a thought

[Carolina Reb]

And many of those skirmishers shooting Burnsides will be happy to bend your ear about their loading tricks and techniques.

[Lee Willy]

Lee
Why not visit us a Ft. Shenandoah on Rte 522. The Saturday carbine match at Nationals will have many Burnsides competing. Jut a thought

I was planning on being there. Is that next weekend? May be i can get someone to load and shoot my Burnside if deemed safe?
Thank you for the help and would like to see how the load is done.

[Lou Lou Lou]

look at the Skirmish calendar in the header. There are two skirmishes there before Nationals. You are in the neighbor hood. I strongly advise visiting

[noonanda]

Ive been working with my burnsides, I am using an Accurate .562 bullet its the 56-350B. I use Swiss 3F powder, IIRC my load is 28 grains. I also had trouble getting the bullets into the casings but found something to expand the plastic neck. What sidelined my load development was my locking latch broke. Just got a replacement so I will be trying again to get it comp ready

[John.Hayes]

What did you use to expand the neck? I used a .69 Minie and it wouldn't expand enough for the same bullet you are using in my nylon cases. jh

[noonanda]

What did you use to expand the neck? I used a .69 Minie and it wouldn't expand enough for the same bullet you are using in my nylon cases. jh

I use a hollow punch and use my single stage reloading press to push a punch down into the neck. I then pour powder and filler in through the punch hole remove it and insert the bullet. It makes the process simple and quick.

This is the set I use
https://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-hollow-punch-set-67030.html

11294

[Lee Willy]

Ive been working with my burnsides, I am using an Accurate .562 bullet its the 56-350B. I use Swiss 3F powder, IIRC my load is 28 grains. I also had trouble getting the bullets into the casings but found something to expand the plastic neck. What sidelined my load development was my locking latch broke. Just got a replacement so I will be trying again to get it comp ready

Thanks for the information. What is your bore size? I am having trouble, for some reason, do not know
how my bore is .542 that i can shoot a .562 round ball? Is that not bigger?
I will be at the Gator shoot and be looking for information and even have someone shoot my Burnside
if they would like to.That way i can follow you through the steps of loading and firing.
Thank you again,
Lee in Va.

[Harry Gaul]

I shot a Burnsides. I had two barrels, one good and one junk. I had Bob Hoyt reline the junk barrel to 550 and used a Rapine Burnside mold. It shot very well but I tired of the nylon cartridge issues and sold it. As luck would have it, my Burnside and new owner appeared in a book by Joe Bilby. That could have been me!

Harry in Pa.
03626v

[Hal]

Lee,

BORE diameter has little to do with bullet diameter unless you are using a bullet with a bore riding portion in the front which is not too common in CW era guns. GROOVE diameter is what determines bullet diameter. Most people (All but 1 that I know of) knowledgeable on the subject recommend a bullet diameter .001" to .002" larger than GROOVE diameter for breech loading guns. Don't worry about it being a tad larger. Lead is soft and will form itself to the inside dimensions of the barrel. Any small amount of excess diameter just turns itself into an even smaller excess of length upon firing. What you are looking for is for the bullet to COMPLETELY fill the cross sectional area of the barrel. If it doesn't, leading and poor accuracy can result.

As for round balls, they can be even slightly larger than that, as only the very middle portion of them will be engaging your rifling. If they are a little larger, it just translates into more bearing area when it gets sized down by the barrel. You say your bore is .542". Just for arguments sake, let's say your rifling grooves are .008" deep. That's an additional .016" of diameter, bringing your GROOVE diameter to .558". A .560" diameter bullet should do nicely, and I would not be afraid to fire a .562" round ball down it either. Of course, you need to find out what your GROOVE diameter REALLY is. The dimensions I was referencing were just hypothetical.

[noonanda]

Thanks for the information. What is your bore size? I am having trouble, for some reason, do not know
how my bore is .542 that i can shoot a .562 round ball? Is that not bigger?
I will be at the Gator shoot and be looking for information and even have someone shoot my Burnside
if they would like to.That way i can follow you through the steps of loading and firing.
Thank you again,
Lee in Va.

Lee how did you measure your bore? while they were "Listed" as being a .54 caliber arm, everything I have read is that they are normally .560+. Did you slug it?

I wasnt planning on going to the Gator as my team isnt competing. I might be at the Potomac, but will definately be at the Nationals

[Carolina Reb]

To amplify on that a little, the 54 bore is essentially the size of the reamer that was used to bore the barrel blank, 0.540". Once the blank was finish bored, rifling groves were cut. So, although the bore is 0.54" the grooves are deeper. Burnside grooves are typically 0.01" deep, so the the bullet size required to fill the rifling grooves is actually 0.560". The grooves were individually cut, so each groove can be a couple thousandth more or less than 0.01". That's why you need to push a lead ball down the barrel and measure the actual groove diameter. Your bullets should be one or two thousandths over groove diameter. If it is too small, gas will leak past the bullet as it travels down the barrel and literally cut trenches in the sides of the bullet, which has a terrible affect on accuracy.

[Maillemaker]

Burnside, Smith, Maynard, Sharps, etc. The ammunition came preloaded in cartridges for issue, no air space.

Just want to point out that with the Sharps, it is not possible to not have an air space in the chamber, no matter how full your cartridge is. The breech block has a cavity in it that will never be filled with powder.

But even so, I routinely shoot my Pedersoli 1859 with reduced charges and no filler. Charlie Hahn does not recommend filler with his tubes. I believe the Sharps' massive receiver and barrel, backed up with the extremely strong falling block means it will not suffer any ill effects. This is my opinion.

Steve

[Lee Willy]

Lee how did you measure your bore? while they were "Listed" as being a .54 caliber arm, everything I have read is that they are normally .560+. Did you slug it?

I wasnt planning on going to the Gator as my team isnt competing. I might be at the Potomac, but will definately be at the Nationals

I measured with digital gauge. Will there be a person or place at FT Shenandoah that can double check that and make sure my carbine is in shoot able condition and fit me with a bullet?

[Lou Lou Lou]

Lee Willy
your best bet is for someone to step up here to meet you. I don?t know of a formal place to take your Burnside to get what you want done. Any Burnside folks available to help?

[Eggman]

Lee Willy
your best bet is for someone to step up here to meet you. I don?t know of a formal place to take your Burnside to get what you want done. Any Burnside folks available to help?
A most worthwhile thought. The problem is - there is generally a shortage of Burnside advisors because at most times many are tied up getting psychiatric help.

[noonanda]

Lee Willy
your best bet is for someone to step up here to meet you. I don?t know of a formal place to take your Burnside to get what you want done. Any Burnside folks available to help?

Lee where are you located at?

[Lou Lou Lou]

He said he lives in Winchester

[Lee Willy]

Lee how did you measure your bore? while they were "Listed" as being a .54 caliber arm, everything I have read is that they are normally .560+. Did you slug it?

I wasnt planning on going to the Gator as my team isnt competing. I might be at the Potomac, but will definately be at the Nationals


Is there a place at Ft. Shenandoah that i can purchase what i need? Will someone there be able to make sure my Burnside is in working order to fire?

[Lou Lou Lou]

Did you go to the fort this weekend? Today was Carbine team

[Lee Willy]

Did you go to the fort this weekend? Today was Carbine team

Could not make it today and will go in the morning to look around and get some bearings of
where i need to go on the next shoot at the Regional. I will stay on this page and again thank
you for your help.
I am to meet Linwood McMahon at the Nationals but hope i get squared away by then.
Always something taken my time to get things done.

[Lee Willy]

Could not make it today and will go in the morning to look around and get some bearings of
where i need to go on the next shoot at the Regional. I will stay on this page and again thank
you for your help.
I am to meet Linwood McMahon at the Nationals but hope i get squared away by then.
Always something taken my time to get things done.

Does Sutlers Row only open at big events? Been there 2 times and have not seen it open.

[Lee Willy]

Just want to point out that with the Sharps, it is not possible to not have an air space in the chamber, no matter how full your cartridge is. The breech block has a cavity in it that will never be filled with powder.

But even so, I routinely shoot my Pedersoli 1859 with reduced charges and no filler. Charlie Hahn does not recommend filler with his tubes. I believe the Sharps' massive receiver and barrel, backed up with the extremely strong falling block means it will not suffer any ill effects. This is my opinion.

Steve

I read your reply. May be that is why firing the Burnside on You Tube shows them filling the nylon cartridge with powder and then setting ball on top with butter chamber it and them cap it and fire with no problems? The Burnside nylon cartridge has a gas ring at top for expansion and is sealed when chambered?

[Hal]

Lee,

Most, if not all, cartridges and most chambers of combustible cartridge guns were designed to be filled up. However, since all we need to do is punch paper and break fragile targets, most have found that best accuracy is not achieved at the maximum charge.

The second part of the equation is that most people believe you run a serious chance of damaging a gun if you shoot black powder with an air space in the cartridge or in the chamber of combustible cartridge guns. Not everyone believes this and the argument for that side is usually the Sharps, which indeed has a fairly significant opening in the breech block that powder does not get into (Part of its breech sealing mechanism), or if it does, then that volume of powder is no longer in the chamber, so there is most definitely an air space in a Sharps, even if you put a paper cartridge in that completely fills the chamber. And they work.....safely.......and no damage to the gun.

Now, if one were to force a bullet into the muzzle of a Sharps and put it in only an inch or two, then put a full charge in the chamber, I suspect you would do some serious damage to the gun and probably serious injury to themselves and/or others. The other extreme is a compressed charge of black powder, which is the norm with black powder cartridge shooters. But even with a compressed charge, there is still SOME air. So what I believe is that some air is OK, but not a lot. How much is too much? I don't know that anyone knows. And to err on the side of caution, the common wisdom is to fill the cartridge full and even compress the charge. Some combustible cartridge guns are capable of compressing the charge. Jenks, Merrill, and Gwyn and Campbells can. Others, such as the Sharps and Starr do not. So there is evidence to suggest a compressed charge is not necessary to fire safely. And with people shooting the Sharps with cardboard tube cartridges, some use a card wad inside to keep the powder against the back end and leave a small air space between the powder and bullet.

[Muley Gil]

Does Sutlers Row only open at big events? Been there 2 times and have not seen it open.

Occasionally, one or two sutlers will be open for the smaller skirmishes. The Nationals draw the most sutlers.

[Lee Willy]

Occasionally, one or two sutlers will be open for the smaller skirmishes. The Nationals draw the most sutlers.

Are the sutlers at the regional? So there are different dealers in each building on Sutlers row?

[Lee Willy]

Lee,

Most, if not all, cartridges and most chambers of combustible cartridge guns were designed to be filled up. However, since all we need to do is punch paper and break fragile targets, most have found that best accuracy is not achieved at the maximum charge.

The second part of the equation is that most people believe you run a serious chance of damaging a gun if you shoot black powder with an air space in the cartridge or in the chamber of combustible cartridge guns. Not everyone believes this and the argument for that side is usually the Sharps, which indeed has a fairly significant opening in the breech block that powder does not get into (Part of its breech sealing mechanism), or if it does, then that volume of powder is no longer in the chamber, so there is most definitely an air space in a Sharps, even if you put a paper cartridge in that completely fills the chamber. And they work.....safely.......and no damage to the gun.

Now, if one were to force a bullet into the muzzle of a Sharps and put it in only an inch or two, then put a full charge in the chamber, I suspect you would do some serious damage to the gun and probably serious injury to themselves and/or others. The other extreme is a compressed charge of black powder, which is the norm with black powder cartridge shooters. But even with a compressed charge, there is still SOME air. So what I believe is that some air is OK, but not a lot. How much is too much? I don't know that anyone knows. And to err on the side of caution, the common wisdom is to fill the cartridge full and even compress the charge. Some combustible cartridge guns are capable of compressing the charge. Jenks, Merrill, and Gwyn and Campbells can. Others, such as the Sharps and Starr do not. So there is evidence to suggest a compressed charge is not necessary to fire safely. And with people shooting the Sharps with cardboard tube cartridges, some use a card wad inside to keep the powder against the back end and leave a small air space between the powder and bullet.

If you get a chance look at You Tube, Burnside carbine TEASER and you will see what i am talking about. i think he is saying he used 36 gr of powder and the round ball in the nylon cartridge. No fillers.

[Muley Gil]

Are the sutlers at the regional? So there are different dealers in each building on Sutlers row?

Each sutler has his/her own building. In the past, there have been one or two sutlers that show up for each shoot. I haven't been able to attend any skirmishes at the Fort for several years, so I'm not sure who will be there.

[Hal]

Lee,

There is nothing wrong with the load you mention, but it is certainly not the ONLY load. The Burnside is a very finicky gun. It is my understanding that it can be very accurate once you find what your particular gun likes, as they are all different. I've yet to find what mine likes, but I think I am close. I just need to find time to do more load development on it (And others). Different brand powders, different granulations of powders, different amounts of different granulations of different brand powders, different bullets, different caps.......... all will have an effect on accuracy.

[B-Davis]

Having read all of the postings about the Burnside, I figured I would throw my info. into the pool. I also had a major addiction to the Burnside at one point, I have owned 4 of them. One, I never shot, the other three, I did shoot and all three wanted a different load. I will give you the loads, but not sure if they will help. BUT there was one universal thing, they ALL wanted a generous amount of lube!

1. Brass casing,32 grains of 2F Goex with a hollow based minie that was I believe, a very old Lyman mold. I would put in the power to the casing, use Cream of Whet to fill the casing upto the round swell(which is actually a gas seal), place the minie on top and then dip the head into a crisco/bees wax solution two times. The lube was a little fragile in some weather, but man, shot like a champ. I once went 16 for 18 on a clay board with it!

2. Brass casing, 36 grains 2F Goex, a .556 round ball, and twice dipped in the same lube. No Cream of Wheat. It shot like gang busters, but had to be cleaned after every event, or would be too fouled up. It also fouled up the sliding gas seal block constantly. I would have to clean after every event. That , by the way is critical. That small block combined with the gas seal on the case is what seals all the gas in, and helps maintain consistencey.

3. This carbine was an oddball. It liked nylon cases, 3F of Swiss. It shot 28 grains of powder with Cream of Wheat. It liked a solid based minie at.56 cal. It also wanted lube, but only one coat. I could never get the group smaller than three inches across, but the sight pattern was the same at 50 yds and 100 yds, so I did not argue. I used it twice for deer hunting and took two deer (2015 and 2018).

So what it boils down to is experiment, try diffrent loads and ideas. Burnsides are very finicky beasts, but once you find the magic load, it is your best friend!