Smoothbore with rear sight?

[JimW]

I was told that there are smoothbores with rear sights that are N-SSA legal. I skulked the line this past Cockade skirmish and honestly did not see one. One of the old salts on my team said " Yo want a Potsdam -good luck findin one" . Are there any reproduction or original (O-rig-inal) smoothbores with rear sites that are N-SSA legal?

Thanks

[Muley Gil]

Look at these threads about H&P muskets:

Search Results - North-South Skirmish Association (n-ssa.net) (https://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/search.php?searchid=865424)

[JimW]

Thank you.

[apriestley]

There are a few original condition Potsdams on GB right now.

[Don Dixon]

The when the System Augustin smoothbore tubelock Muster 1842 muskets and Muster 1844 Extra Corps carbines were manufactured by the Austrian Army they had a fixed rear sight on the tang of the breech screw. Significant numbers of them were sold to the Federal Army and probably to the Confederate Army. If you can find one that didn't have the sight removed and wasn't rifled when it was transformed to caplock it would be a rear sighted gun which was legal for the N-SSA smoothbore matches

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[Ben Nevlezer]

FWIW...
The way I read and understand the N-SSA rules, ANY smoothbore with a rear sight, must be inspected by the SAC and issued a SAC approval card to be legal for use in N-SSA competition. I believe that would include the Potsdam. Just saying, I've heard many times that "my H&P is all original so I don't need a card for it" , not true!

[dougmichigan]

I was told that there are smoothbores with rear sights that are N-SSA legal. I skulked the line this past Cockade skirmish and honestly did not see one. On of the old salts on my team said " Yo want a Potsdam -good luck findin one" . Are there any reproduction or original (O-rig-inal) smoothbores with rear sites that are N-SSA legal?

Thanks

I have a sighted and NSSA SAC card H&P for sale.

[Harry Gaul]

H and P are very popular but you have to be careful. The position of the rear sight is key to finding a legal NSSA sighted smoothbore. If the H and P has a rear sight pointing in the usual direction, and there is no clean out screw, and there is a "shark fin" front sight on the front barrel band, and unaltered as to length and other specs., you most likely to have a legal, SAC passing, H and P in its unaltered state. If the H and P has the sight pointing in the reverse direction, and there is clean out screw, mostly likely you a H and P made for the State of New Jersey and is rifled. You can still use it in the NSSA but not in Smoothbore competition. There are members who shoot a rifled 69 cal musket in musket competition. It is personal preference for them. Most of us use the standard 54 or 58 cal musket from 55 to 64 type II or Enfield or whatever.

There is even a short version of the Potsdam floating around the gun show circuit. Do you want to destroy a Civil War Potsdam by relining it and now it is a "Skirmish" smoothbore firearm? Decisions? Decisions?


I defer to members of the SAC committee for clarification. After 42 years in the organization, this has been my experience.

Harry in Pa.
03626v

[JimW]

Apparently I was not "careful" in my latest purchase.....

[Maillemaker]

It is said that this research is now somewhat obsolete but it is still an interesting read about H&P conversions:

https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/1976-B33-The-Hewes-And-Phillips-Story.pdf

What Harry said is correct. Basically, if it's got a cleanout screw in the bolster, it's probably not a smoothbore.

Steve

[Muley Gil]

H and P are very popular but you have to be careful. The position of the rear sight is key to finding a legal NSSA sighted smoothbore. If the H and P has a rear sight pointing in the usual direction, and there is no clean out screw, and there is a "shark fin" front sight on the front barrel band, and unaltered as to length and other specs., you most likely to have a legal, SAC passing, H and P in its unaltered state. If the H and P has the sight pointing in the reverse direction, and there is clean out screw, mostly likely you a H and P made for the State of New Jersey and is rifled. You can still use it in the NSSA but not in Smoothbore competition. There are members who shoot a rifled 69 cal musket in musket competition. It is personal preference for them. Most of us use the standard 54 or 58 cal musket from 55 to 64 type II or Enfield or whatever.

There is even a short version of the Potsdam floating around the gun show circuit. Do you want to destroy a Civil War Potsdam by relining it and now it is a "Skirmish" smoothbore firearm? Decisions? Decisions?


I defer to members of the SAC committee for clarification. After 42 years in the organization, this has been my experience.

Harry in Pa.
03626v

Back when I started in the N-SSA (1970) the .69 muskets were popular for the stake event. I saw some awesome .69 full wadcutter bullets being used. :)

[JimW]

Can it be legally (N-ssa use) be converted to a Smoothbore?

[Maillemaker]

Can it be legally (N-ssa use) be converted to a Smoothbore?

I think it is legal to build "put-together" guns from original parts, but it would be difficult to convert a NJ rifled conversion to look like an H&P conversion.

First of all, you would need a new barrel and breech. I'm working on reproduction H&P breeches right now and should have a fully machined prototype in a couple of weeks.

Next, you would probably need a new lock plate so that you could shape the flash pan notch to match the shape of the belly of the H&P bolster, as it probably won't match the shape of the notch put in for the NJ bolster.

Depending on the year model you might need a different hammer also.

I know the N-SSA frowns on destroying old guns for parts but I believe you could do it but it would be a lot of work. You probably could build an H&P conversion musket out of parts if you had an H&P barrel.

I hope to have this problem solved with a reproduction H&P by the end of the year.

Steve

[John Holland]

The wholesale destruction of original Civil War arms to create another arm to skirmish with was dealt with at a National Board meeting when it was discovered that over 100 original M-1816 Cone-in-Barrel muskets had been destroyed to fabricate replicas of H&P smoothbore muskets. Those muskets, which were the backbone of both the Union and the Confederacy in the early days of the Civil War, have been irreparably lost to history forever. It was decided by the Board that the N-SSA that the Small Arms Committee would no longer issue Individual Approval Cards for an arm that was fabricated by destroying an original Civil War arm. The very tenets of the N-SSA are the preservation of Civil War arms, accouterments, and memorabilia.

[Maillemaker]

Could you get a card for one built from parts?

Steve

[Harry Gaul]

SAC,

Since these altered 1816's to H and P"s with SAC card are around and used, are they grandfathered in for competition?
I am asking just in case one of these smoothies comes on the market.

Harry in Pa.
03626v

[John Holland]

Steve - Yes, but be prepared to prove it was from an assortment of odd parts. Photos of the parts and process to completion would be best to support your case for not having destroyed an original arm.

Harry, yes they are "Grandfathered in and must have either the original or a copy of the SAC card with them whenever used on an N-SSA official firing line. I strongly suggest keeping a copy of the original card in a safe place.

[Brian]

An easy solution would be to just buy my original Potsdam.
750$ and it will be at the Allegheny regional

[JimW]

I wont destroy the original that I bought. The only question is , am I going to keep it or pass it on. Is there an SAC build sheet for the Potsdam and H & P Smoothbores?

Thank you