Italian Enfields

[Bob Hatfield]

Do the Italian Enfields made by Armi-Sport and Euroarms have the same dimension weight problems as the Italian Springfields?
I often read that the Springfields made by these two manufacturers are heavier and clunkier than a Miroku or an original and am curious if the Enfields are better matched?
One other question. If one had a Italian Enfield, but didnt like the straighter stock, could he move the rear sight to the upper most levelon the ramp (just before folding the leaf up) and install a higher front sight and be able to handle it more like a Springfield as far as bearing down on the stock with his cheek?

Thank you, Bob

[Muley Gil]

Question # 1: Yes, the Italian Enfields are heavier than the originals.

Question # 2: I don't think so.

[Blair]

Bob,

Yes the repro's are heavier.
Much of this excess weight is in the pudgy oversized stocks most all repro's have on them.

The straighter stocks on the Enfield type firearms give some people problems. They have trouble getting their face down on the stock far enough to line up the sights.
Re shaping and re contouring the stocks on the repro's (to being more like the stocks on the originals) will help reduce quite a bit of that weight.
This re contouring will also slim down the butt stock area as well. Giving the shooter a bit more room to get their face down on the stock. Closer to being in alignment with the natural sight picture of the straighter Enfield stocks.
Blair

[Southron Sr.]

I am wondering if all the complaints about the streight stocks of Enfields are just "much ado about very little" because I have been shooting both types of arms for 40 plus years and have never had any trouble with either.

Yes, if for some reason someone couldn't shoot an Enfield's "streight" stock, one could install a higher front sight and then elevate the rear sight on the steps to, in effect, give the Enfield more "drop" in the stock.

One of the reasons there are complaints about the Enfield's "streight" stocks is that ALL of the repro Enfields on the market are the "Short Butt" models. In 1859-60 British Ordnance officials decreed that the stock of the Enfield would be shortened by 1 inch.

The government armory at Enfield lock immediately complied but many contractors continued to make the "Long Butt" models of the Enfields. Of course, the "Long Butt" Enfields have more "drop" in the stock.

I guess that one could always have a "Long Butt" custom Enfield made up and get it approved by the SAC. MY vote would go for a repro of the "Windsor Enfield" which was a 2nd Model Enfield ("Long Butt" model) made in Windsor, Vermont in the 1850's.

While many were made and delivered to the British government under contract, the firm that made them went bankrupt. When the "Whar" broke out, agents for the State of Georgia purchased several hundred Windsor Enfields on the surplus market and attempted to ship them down to Savannah from New York City.

The New York Police siezed the Enfields and consequently, Georgia and New York almost WENT TO WAR (before the rest of the North and South could start fighting) because the Governor of Georgia seized several ships in Savannah harbor that were owned by New York citizens and literally "held the ships hostage" to get Georgia's Windsor Enfields released!

When they arrived in Georgia, the Windsor Enfields were issued to Georgia troops.

Anyway, have you tried shooting a repro Enfield? I find that the Enfield's stock allows me to do a perfect "Cheek Weld" which imporves my marksmanship.

GOOD LUCK!

[Bob Hatfield]

Thank you for the replies..................I'll have to shoulder one the first chance I'm around one..................I do have a Enfield Musketoon that while it had fixed sights there was no way you could cheek down on them unless you stood perpendicular to the weapon and pull your cheek way back toward the butt end..............Very unnatural for a hillbilly like me..............................Bob

[clowdis]

Some of the problems with the drop in the stock can be overcome by starting with the rear sight on a higher notch. Make your 50 yard elevation the 100 or even the 150 yard notch on the rear sight. This forces you to raise your head position a little and helps with the drop in the stock. "Drop" is all relevant to the sight line. It still won't feel like a Springfield but it sure will feel better!

[John Holland]

Southron, Sr. -

In regards to the Long Stock vs Short Stock English Rifles & Rifle Muskets, I beg to differ with your findings. I, too, have collected untold amounts of dimensional data as a small arms enthusiast, not unlike yourself. But I seem to have a different opinion of the reproduction arms. You are correct about the English stocks being shortened by 1.0" at a certain time in history. The original British "Long Stock" has a trigger pull length of 14.0", and the "Short Stock" has a trigger pull length of 13.0". The original London arms are quite consistent, as opposed to the Birmingham arms, which will vary a bit, but that's another story.

Here is what I've recorded for some of the reproduction arms:

Parker Hale P-58 Naval Rifle - Trigger Pull - 14.0" the same as the original long stock.
Parker Hale P-61 Artillery Musketoon - Trigger Pull - 14.0" the same as the original long stock.
ArmiSport P-58 Naval Rifle - Trigger Pull - 14.0" the same as the original long stock.
Euroarms P-58 Naval Rifle - Trigger Pull - 14.0" the same as the original long stock.
Euroarms P-53 Rifle Musket - Trigger Pull - 14.0" the same as the original long stock.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not being argumentive. I just wanted to share my findings that show the reproductions to be quite faithful to the original early issue long trigger pull arms. Personally, I like the short trigger pull types with a pull of 13.0", which is a full 1/2" shorter than the U.S. arms of the period.

John Holland
Arms Student

[Southron Sr.]

THANKS for your information John!

I am always glad to learn something new. I had assumed (wrongly) that since Parker Hale claimed to have copied the "sealed pattern" 4th Model Enfield that they had copied the one with the "Short Butt." This was because Enfield armory had switched to the production of Short Butt Enfields a few years before the 4th Model went into production.

Now, it appears that Parker-Hale fudged matters a little and produced a "Long Butt" repro Enfield.

I had never put a tape measure to Enfield stocks and I am glad that you did!

THANKS AGAIN! HAVE A GREAT DAY!

[Mike w/ 34th]

You aren't meant to "get your face down" on an Enfield stock. The British drill manual says to raise the right elbow parallel to the ground, and the gun will come up to your eye. Shoot the gun the way it was meant to be shot, and Enfields will perform well.

Cheers,

Michael