Smokeless Powder Load for Uberti 1860 Henry???

[Ronald Vecchioni]

Does anyone know of a smokeless powder load for the 1860 Henry rifle chambered in 44-40 WCF, using a combination of a 200 grain cast lead bullet and Bullseye smokeless powder? One can of Bullseye pistol powder is all I have left on the shelf here at home and want to use it up.
Thanks!

[Sven205]

I haven't used Bullseye in this cartridge, but M.D. Smiths pages has a recommended start and max load. Looks like these velocities are out of a pistol barrel:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6vdupqxvmr3in03/Screenshot%202020-12-02%20080203.jpg?dl=0

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

Since your question involves SAFETY, may I please share some lessons:

I have been down that road and will not use ANY smokeless in a firearm designed for traditional black; even if made of modern materials.

While some do and recite satisfactory VELOCITY results, they do not have or share PRESSURE results.

Please understand that Winchester did extensive testing when transitioning shotshells and other ammunition from black to semi-smokeless to smokeless. It learned that FOR THE SAME VELOCITY AND BULLET WEIGHT, smokeless that produced the same velocity DOUBLED the pressure! That was from Ed Lowery, PhD, Win's Chief Ballistician in the 1980's. He gave me the lab report, but I no longer have it.

I have tested duplex loads with as little as 10% 4759 and other SLOW BURNING smokeless powders in place of 10% black and still found nasty pressure signs.

The toggle linkage in a Henry is not designed for smokeless pressures.
Red Dot is a nitro based powder and can detonate. Black will not.
And, an accidental double charge of Red Dot will do dangerous things even to modern guns.
I try hard not to practice something that I can only do wrong, ONCE.

Humbly and respectcully submitted.

Kevin Tinny

P
Edited for a typo. Tx.

[Eggman]

Thanks Kevin. Dangerous ground for the N-SSA Forum to be treading.

[Maillemaker]

Just wanted to say that when I got into reloading modern ammo 10+ years ago I discovered Mr. Smith's reloading page. Turns out we live in the same town and he invited me over to show me the basics of reloading. Great guy.

Steve

[Ben Nevlezer]

Thanks Kevin. Dangerous ground for the N-SSA Forum to be treading.
I agree 110%. Although there're many very good loads for the Henry using modern powders, the slightest mistake can be VERY DANGEROUS due to extreme pressures in an action originally designed for black powder.
As for the N-SSA aspect....... You can't hide the difference between black and smokeless powder firing on the line. Most IG's (myself included) do carry a bullet puller. If the need so happens to arise.........

[Ronald Vecchioni]

Kevin Tinny is absolutely correct. Those brass Henry receivers look paper thin to me and the internal toggle system is not set up to take any kind of abuse at all.

I acknowledge that with most pistol powders like Bullseye that care must be taken not to "double charge' the powder in the cartridge or bad things are going to happen. But I adhere to a rigid quality control of visually inspecting all my charged cases before performing the bullet seating stage.

This visual inspection is facilitated by the use of thin cardboard wads on top of the powder charge. This serves multiple purposes but primarily to make it easy to visually spot a double charged case.

Still I appreciate the words of caution, because it is easy to hurt ourselves or others around us if we do not exercise due diligence.

[John Holland]

Ronald Vecchioni - The reproduction 1860 Rifle made by Uberti does not say "Black Powder Only" and even has Italian smokeless powder proofs. However, as Mr. Tinny noted the linkage is n to a robust design. You seem to be very well versed in smokeless powder loading, so there is no ned for me to add additional comments about that.

As Ben Nevlezer pointed out, smokeless powder is not allowed for use in the N-SSA's matches. Additionally, for our newer members, smokeless powder is not allowed to be fired on the National Range, aka Ft. Shenandoah at any time, even if you are just practicing by yourself.

[Ronald Vecchioni]

Gentlemen,
Since we haven't had any NSSA skirmishes this year, I've had to get my "shooting fix" at other venues.
One event is a 200 yard steel silhouette match held monthly at a nearby range.

I've got an abundance of empty Black Hills and Winchester 44-40 WCF brass and want to put it and my Henry to some other use.
Simply want to shoot smokeless powder at those other matches to ease cleaning the rifle and as a courtesy the guys standing downwind.

Even though it is a black powder cartridge match, very few shooters are actually using black powder. As they say "When in Rome... do as the Romans do!"

[MR. GADGET]

Thanks Kevin. Dangerous ground for the N-SSA Forum to be treading.

Not really at all.

I feel sure it is not an orginal and the repops were made to handle modern ammo.

Have shot my Henry with factory load ammo and also reloaded with unique smokless.

I see nothing wrong with it. OP just look up Lee load manual or some of the others and get data from them.
I will not give data but if I can will take a picture or scan my load book for you to see and us as you like.

[MR. GADGET]

I agree 110%. Although there're many very good loads for the Henry using modern powders, the slightest mistake can be VERY DANGEROUS due to extreme pressures in an action originally designed for black powder.
As for the N-SSA aspect....... You can't hide the difference between black and smokeless powder firing on the line. Most IG's (myself included) do carry a bullet puller. If the need so happens to arise.........


Dang guys, he is just looking to burn powder he has in hand because we are not shoot matches.
I see nothing wrong with that.

The uberti Repo was not desigened for BP only.
It was made to use modern ammo in 44-40 and 45 LC


Please prove me wrong if I am!

"due to extreme pressures in an action originally designed for black powder. "
Find something on the Uberti site to prove this!

[Eggman]

Placing a great deal of faith in our readers' discernment and memory and good common sense. N-SSA is a black powder bunch -- black powder has much more forgiveness than smokeless. Like for example, you could never "blow up" a modern M-16 or M-14 with a blank could you?? Well at Fort Leonard in the Woods Missouri in '67 - '68 we had a steady stream of blown up rifles come through our shop. The rifles were blown up by blanks. The troopers came up with the great idea that filling up a blank to the top with powder from other cartridges would give them a really neat loud bang. That extra powder in a BLANK blew the rifles to smitherines. Some of the troopers faces were not all that pretty afterwards either. I don't like discussion of smokeless powder in any context on this site.

[Muley Gil]

Winchester built their 1873 lever action, which was another toggle action, black powder era rifle, from 1873 until 1923. Lugers are also toggle action and the 9mm Parabellum cartridge operates at much higher pressures than the .44-40.

As noted above, Uberti proofs their cartridge guns with smokeless powder. Any safe handload, suitable for the older actions (NOT the Winchester 1892 and it's clones, nor the Marlins) will be fine in a Uberti.

[MR. GADGET]

Placing a great deal of faith in our readers' discernment and memory and good common sense. N-SSA is a black powder bunch -- black powder has much more forgiveness than smokeless. Like for example, you could never "blow up" a modern M-16 or M-14 with a blank could you?? Well at Fort Leonard in the Woods Missouri in '67 - '68 we had a steady stream of blown up rifles come through our shop. The rifles were blown up by blanks. The troopers came up with the great idea that filling up a blank to the top with powder from other cartridges would give them a really neat loud bang. That extra powder in a BLANK blew the rifles to smitherines. Some of the troopers faces were not all that pretty afterwards either. I don't like discussion of smokeless powder in any context on this site.

You can't fix stupid!
You again are getting lost.

That has nothing to do with the statements about the design of the Uberti Henry being made for smokless.
Cut and dry.

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

I have shot my Henry rifle with smokeless loads (NOT in N-SSA competition) with no adverse effects. Spent primers show no evidence of excessive pressure. Extra caution using light charges of smokeless is necessary to prevent double charging as others have pointed out. Trail Boss powder is good but my favorite load is a 200 grain RCBS cast bullet over 5.7 grains of Winchester 231 powder. It is important to firmly crimp the bullet to prevent it from being pushed into the case. Less volume in the case will definitely generate dangerously higher pressures. That is not an issue with my BP skirmish load (230 grain bullet over 24.0 grains FFFg & cream of wheat filler) which is a compressed load.

Putting a cardboard or any other wad over the powder in a case that is not completely filled risks ringing the chamber and/or barrel. The bullet acts as a bore obstruction. Be careful!

Jim Burgess, 15th CVI

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

I've had success with Trail Boss. Look up the load data it's available online.

[efritz]

Look up Trail Boss load data. Follow directions as with any powder load data. I use for some local cowboy action for added trigger time and shoots one on top of the other.

[John Holland]

Winchester used the toggle link up through the M-1876 Rifle, then redesigned everything for the M-1886 Rifle which is much more robust.
However interesting this thread is, the fellow who initiated this post was only looking to use up a can of Bullseye Powder, and not for solutions on how to use an assortment of powders.