My First Burnside - Percussion Cap/Powder Selection

[Duigiud]

Hello, I?m a first time owner of a Burnside Carbine, or will be this December after I finish paying it out of lay-away, (my Xmas present to myself). I found it on Gun Broker. It?s a 5th model, serial number 8733. The weapon is in outstanding condition. The seller listed it as a possible ?Unissued? weapon with the bore in mint condition. I can?t copy and post the pics from GB. I?ve been doing research to learn as much about this weapon as I can. I?ve bought Edward Hull?s books and seen YTube videos. I have two questions that I hope someone can help me with, the first is what size percussion caps will I need to use and second is it possible to use substitute black powder? Any recommendations as to percussion caps and black powder substitutes would be much appreciated.

[Eggman]

Hi Dui,
Go to Lodgewood Mfg. You not only need .562 bullets and musket caps (any brand will do), you also need some cartridge cases. Lodgewood has some nylon ones cheap.
I don't use black powder substitutes. It seems contrary to nature. But if you insist, you'll probably find a modern gun store with the stuff. There's a ton of information on Burnsides on this site if you use the search up above. Good luck! By the way, use LOTS of lube on your bullets. Crisco will do.

[Carolina Reb]

Burnsides take standard musket size caps. Past that, you will get A LOT of different load suggestions. I like the Accurate Molds 56-390A. It's about as close to the original bullet as you will find in a modern mold. 29-33 grains of Swiss FFF should get you pretty close to a good shooting load. I have never tried the black powder substitutes. Fill the extra space in the cartridge case with a cotton ball fluff. An unrolled cotton ball will do a dozen or so cartridges. Lube bullets with SPG to get started. You can mix up a good lube by melting beeswax (the real thing, not craft store substitute) with some olive oil. 2 ounces of wax to a tablespoon of oil works well but the ratio is not at all critical.

Have fun with your new carbine!

[Duigiud]

Hi Dui,
Go to Lodgewood Mfg. You not only need .562 bullets and musket caps (any brand will do), you also need some cartridge cases. Lodgewood has some nylon ones cheap.
I don't use black powder substitutes. It seems contrary to nature. But if you insist, you'll probably find a modern gun store with the stuff. There's a ton of information on Burnsides on this site if you use the search up above. Good luck! By the way, use LOTS of lube on your bullets. Crisco will do.

Thanks Eggman! I?ve ordered some brass cartridges and burnside bullets from LW. I?m still trying to figure out what caps to buy that will fit. The Cap sizes are confusing to me. I don?t know if #10 or #11 will fit. Then there?s a 209 cap and Musket Caps. The 209 and Musket caps don?t seem to have size numbers, (one size fits all?).

[EPPS1919]

A 209 is a shot gun primer. There used for inline guns you need Musket caps they are much bigger than #10 or #11 caps RWS makes very good caps


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[Carolina Reb]

The cap number is 1081, but everybody just calls them Musket Caps. There are probably some oddballs out there, but musket caps fit pretty much all military muskets, rifles and carbines that take caps.

By your serial number you are probably getting a "Model of 1864". Burnside switched over to Spencer carbine production late in the war, but the switch took way longer than expected, so they restarted the single shot carbine line. They made some minor changes with the restart, such as a longer trigger plate to reinforce the stock wrist, and reset serial numbers to 1. A lot of the '64 carbines were never issued.

[Eggman]

Hi again Dui,
Well you're getting a fast sample of that old adage, "Opinions are like____________, everybody's got one." Now those brass cases, once you fire them you need to clean them -- in the case of BP, you need to wash them (BP residue is salt). By the way, did I mention that you need to anneal those brass cases before you fire them. You take your torch, heat them until they're just turning red, and then quench in water. This gets rid of that brassian brittleness. We in the N-SSA all shoot light loads - that's the reason the fellow recommended filler. You'll notice the mouth of your cases curl in after firing. You'll have to straighten the rim back out to reload. I'd recommend 35 grains BP for a load (or an equal load by volume of the sub).
You need to join the N-SSA and try the thing out in team competition. It's organiastic.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, Duigiud:

There are some very good reasons to avoid certain traditional black powder substitutes in fine originals. There is a lot of less than correct info on the Web and in some shrewdly worded advertising.

If you wish to know why most of us avoid "substitutes", and how to properly clean after shooting traditional BP, please PM me with a way to contact you. Will be happy to share.
You sure do not want to learn the hard way on a pristine Burnside!

Very Respectfully,
Kevin Tinny

[Eggman]

Hello, Duigiud:

There are some very good reasons to avoid certain traditional black powder substitutes in fine originals. There is a lot of less than correct info on the Web and in some shrewdly worded advertising.

If you wish to know why most of us avoid "substitutes", and how to properly clean after shooting traditional BP, please PM me with a way to contact you. Will be happy to share.
You sure do not want to learn the hard way on a pristine Burnside!

Very Respectfully,
Kevin Tinny
With all due respect, why not put it on here for the whole world to look at?

[Duigiud]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies! But stand by, cause I?m gonna be asking ya more. Just be patient with this newbie. I?m a retired Federal Special Agent and was a firearms instructor/range officer throughout my entire 33 plus year career. However, I have ZERO knowledge of black powder weapons, loading them, casting bullets for them and cleaning them. In short no knowledge of their Manual of Arms. Someone ought to start a new thread entitled, ?Burnside Carbine for Dummies? and stock it chuck full from A to Z with info a sort of one stop shop for the newbie. It would save everyone allot of time. Again, I wish to thank those who have responded and those who haven?t read my thread yet.

[Mike McDaniel]

I've heard of people getting very good accuracy out of a Burnside with round balls. The rate of twist isn't that high.

[Eggman]

Absolutely. Best consistency by far. Use the glob of lube lube system. Also round balls loadable into the curled in case mouth.

[Duigiud]

Absolutely. Best consistency by far. Use the glob of lube lube system. Also round balls loadable into the curled in case mouth.

Eggman, what is the caliber of round balls for the Burnside?

[Eggman]

As I recall I used .559 which was large enough to grab the rifling. Lee version is sprueless. No longer shoot Burnside -- traded it for Maynard and Nirvana.

[EPPS1919]

.562 round ball is what most people shoot


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[Eggman]

Yeah I used that size too. Can't remember any significant improvement. I believe I still have both (Lee and Lyman). Holler if interested in a used.

[Carolina Reb]

I've shot those too. For some reason, my 4th model decides once in a while to throw one completely wild. I'll get a 1" group going at 50 yards, then one will go completely out of the scoring rings. Never figured out why, and it doesn't do it with regular bullets. Well, each one of these is an individual for sure.

[noonanda]

Accurate makes a couple good Burnside bullet molds, Ive got the 56-50 throwing a .563 bullet. Ive been using the plastic cases and just got a sizing die to bring my bullet down from ,563 to .561 . I am working up a couple loads using GOEX. You can use regular 4 wing caps.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=25

[rcbloom2]

Hi Dui,
Go to Lodgewood Mfg. You not only need .562 bullets and musket caps (any brand will do), you also need some cartridge cases. Lodgewood has some nylon ones cheap.
I don't use black powder substitutes. It seems contrary to nature. But if you insist, you'll probably find a modern gun store with the stuff. There's a ton of information on Burnsides on this site if you use the search up above. Good luck! By the way, use LOTS of lube on your bullets. Crisco will do.

Says bullet should be .562. Do you have issues seating these bullets in the nylon and brass cases? Too large?

[Carolina Reb]

My Accurate 56-390A drops at 0.560". With the brass cases I have to neck expand some cases to get them to seat. If you go with 0.562" you may have to size down a bit.

[Duigiud]

Hello everyone! Well just got my n?w/old Burnside and it?s in excellent condition. I went to chamber a cartridge case and it won?t allow me to close the breach completely. I even tried seating a bullet in the case to see if that made any difference, it didn?t. The breach block pivots up in place but won?t close or lock. It looks like it?s no more than 1/8th to 1/16th of an inch from closing and locking. That block where the nipple is in that slides was locked tight and would not move. This is the block that aids in the extraction of a fired case. I sprayed some WD-40 and Break Free on it and was finally able to get it to function. Everything else looks pristine. Could it be the cartridge cases? Are they too long? The cartridge cases were from Lockwood. I just ordered 4 from Dixie to see if that makes any difference.

[mgmradio]

I?ve been using the plastic cases for min as I ran into the same problem with the brass cases. The seal aria radius is wrong for the 5th model carbines.

[Duigiud]

I?ve been using the plastic cases for min as I ran into the same problem with the brass cases. The seal aria radius is wrong for the 5th model carbines.

When you say the seal radius do you mean the turtleneck looking bulge at the wide end of the cartridge?

Where do I get the plastic cartridges?

[Carolina Reb]

Another thing that can cause this problem is corrosion on the breechblock chamber walls. The way the tapered chamber is designed, it doesn't take much. If the chamber is a little rusty and you do get it to close and fire, cases will get stuck in the breechblock. The plastic cases are more forgiving if you have this problem.

[mgmradio]

Yes I mean the bulge. The brass ones I got (can?t remember from whom, maybe S&S) had the proper indent in the base, but the bulge was to big to allow the breach to close. A friend gave me some earlier mad brass with the flat base and they did fit fine.
I got my nylon cases from lodgewood. They are easy to load and last quite a long time.


When you say the seal radius do you mean the turtleneck looking bulge at the wide end of the cartridge?

Where do I get the plastic cartridges?

[Harry Gaul]

For me, 562 bullet leaves me cautious. I am a believer in use small, aim small, miss small. An unissued Burnside should have a tight bore unlike most of the well used Carbines in use in the organization. If I were you, I would start with the good old 535 round ball used in most 54 cal m/l. Make a plan and go to the range and shoot a few. You have the brass cases, bullets or round ball, real black powder and musket caps. Evaluate? If you do not like the result, evaluate, plan, modify and repeat until you are happy with result. If you live east of the Mississippi, post here and someone from the organization should respond. On site help is better than I do this and he does that and I am confused.

Harry in Pa.
03626v


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[Hal]

I could be wrong. Happens all the time. Just ask my wife. BUT......I'm thinking that without a sabot or other form of retention, a .535 round ball will have significant windage inside the case mouth and will likely roll out the bore.....

Just sayin'