Gallagher cases

[gemmer]

This might be old news, but I haven't seen anything posted about it so here goes. I apologize in advance if it's redundant. I been shooting my Hoyt relined Erma for about four years with excellent results.I know the have a reputation for poor ignition. In the last two or three shooting sessions I started to get an increasing number of misfires. The last one was a total bust. Although I had always been serious about cleaning it, I assumed it was a flash channel issue. I stripped the carbine down, gave it a heavy duty cleaning, soaked the receiver in straight Ballistol, then gave it a bath in acetone. I put a cotton ball in the chamber and fired off a cap. Black residue. Loaded up a blank with 10 grains of 3F powder and a wad, no bang. I drilled out the touch hole on one case and loaded another blank. Now I could see powder at the hole. Boom. But it occurred to me, why all of a sudden would I have to drill out the cases? Long story short, the cases, at least mine, have a concave powder chamber at the base. Cleaning them with a flat faced brush like I do for BPCR wasn't reaching the crud, at the bottom even though they were soaked first. The crud built up in the little chamber and even though the touch hole was clear, the powder charge was much further away from the hole. The crud was baked on and it it took a lot of time to see brass at the bottom of the chambers. I didn't try a blank yet, but I'm pretty sure I found the problem. From now on the fired cases go into a jug of water after firing instead of dealing with them a couple of hours later.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Wet tumbling with soap and media should solve that

[John Zebelean]

Wet tumbling with soap and media should solve that

Lou Lou, tell us more. What kind of soap? Mr Clean, Dawn liquid? How much should I use?

[gemmer]

Still no luck. I can't figure it out. I know the flash channel is clear. I've tried winged RWS and Schuetzen caps. No difference and they've worked before. I know the flash is reaching the touch hole. The only thing that works is a drilled out hole that allows 3F to run through it and a piece of tissue paper on the the back to keep it in the case. The flash burns through and sets off the charge, at least with light blanks in my basement. I know the back of the case is up against the back of the chamber because it will push the bullet into the rifling when the action is closed.

[gemmer]

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[CAGerringer]

Any suggestions would be appreciated.


Have you changed out the nipple before, or since, the problem started?

Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[gemmer]

Yes. The only other spare musket nipples I have are older style with a bigger bottom hole, but I tried it. No change.

[CAGerringer]

Is that the type (big hole) you had in before the problem started?
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[gemmer]

Is that the type (big hole) you had in before the problem started?
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

No. It's the pin hole type. I'm going to take one out of one of my muskets and try it in the Gallagher.

[clowdis]

My Gallagher tubes are drilled 7/64. When loading I cover the flash hole with paper dots (adhesive price dots that you can buy at an office supply store) and go ahead and load. I've never had an issue with ignition and the caps blow right through the paper dots. To clean I use a rotary tumbler with stainless steel pins.

[gemmer]

My Gallagher tubes are drilled 7/64. When loading I cover the flash hole with paper dots (adhesive price dots that you can buy at an office supply store) and go ahead and load. I've never had an issue with ignition and the caps blow right through the paper dots. To clean I use a rotary tumbler with stainless steel pins.
Tried different nipple no change. I've never seen anything like this before. I Put 10 gr of 3F in the case with a wad and the cap blows out the wad and some powder but it doesn't ignite. What I can't figure out is why all of a sudden is this going on? I'm back to thinking it's perhaps a partial blockage in the flash channel.

[clowdis]

If you're getting that much "blow" through the case I doubt you have too much of a restriction in the flash channel. Perhaps another brand of cap may be helpful. Here's why I think the paster on the back of the tube works with the large flash hole. The larger hole allows the powder to leak through and be retained in the case recess by the paster. This is almost like a small priming charge that helps the main charge ignite. All the cap has to do is blow through the paper paster and away you go. Theory at least. Anyway, I don't ever recall having any issues with ignition on my Gallagher.

[gemmer]

If you're getting that much "blow" through the case I doubt you have too much of a restriction in the flash channel. Perhaps another brand of cap may be helpful. Here's why I think the paster on the back of the tube works with the large flash hole. The larger hole allows the powder to leak through and be retained in the case recess by the paster. This is almost like a small priming charge that helps the main charge ignite. All the cap has to do is blow through the paper paster and away you go. Theory at least. Anyway, I don't ever recall having any issues with ignition on my Gallagher.
That's what I've done with a few cases and it seems to work as long as the powder is compressed with a wad. I use Charlie's tubes in my Sharps with curler paper ends, too. I drilled them out with a #41 drill which is a bit smaller than 7/64. I've tried Schuetzen and winged RWS caps and there's no difference. They both used to work fine. That's what irks me. I've had a few misfires here and there, especially on my last few outings, but now, NONE of the cases with the original touch hole will fire.

[clowdis]

One last thought, have you tried increasing the size of the hole in the nipple?

[gemmer]

One last thought, have you tried increasing the size of the hole in the nipple?
It's worth a try. Thanks for all your feed back.

[gemmer]

Drilled out the nipple. No help. I ordered a few new cases and I"ll be interested to see if there's any difference.

[CAGerringer]

I find it strange that you get enough power from your caps to blow out the powder, but not ignite it. Are you sure your powder hasn't been degraded in some way?
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[gemmer]

Me too. I tried Swiss 3F and GOEX 3F. No difference.

[gemmer]

Me too. I tried Swiss 3F and Goex 3F. No difference.

[John Holland]

Gemmer - You said "...the cap blows out the wad and some powder but it doesn't ignite...". The power of the cap exploding pushes a blast of air ahead of the flame. The column of air is pushing the powder and wad out ahead of the flame. It would appear that the flame of the cap is getting diminished somewhere. I would suggest that you remove the clean-out screw and insert a wire into the clean-out hole as far as it will reach. Then mark the depth of the wire, remove it, and lay it across the face of the breech and see if it reaches past the exit hole in the face of the breech where the end of the cartridge fits into the breech. There is a possibility that the interior has eroded past where the flame of the cap is supposed to come out to ignite the cartridge. If that is true, then that's where the flame is being trapped past the exit hole and thereby not able to get out and into the hole in the base of the cartridge.

[gemmer]

Gemmer - You said "...the cap blows out the wad and some powder but it doesn't ignite...". The power of the cap exploding pushes a blast of air ahead of the flame. The column of air is pushing the powder and wad out ahead of the flame. It would appear that the flame of the cap is getting diminished somewhere. I would suggest that you remove the clean-out screw and insert a wire into the clean-out hole as far as it will reach. Then mark the depth of the wire, remove it, and lay it across the face of the breech and see if it reaches past the exit hole in the face of the breech where the end of the cartridge fits into the breech. There is a possibility that the interior has eroded past where the flame of the cap is supposed to come out to ignite the cartridge. If that is true, then that's where the flame is being trapped past the exit hole and thereby not able to get out and into the hole in the base of the cartridge.


OK John. Here's what I came up with. My method differs a bit from yours because you have to allow for the thickness of the bolster when you insert the wire. The width of the breech including the bolster is 1.467. The breech itself is 1.265. So the bolster projects .202 from the side of the breech. The wire measured .859. Deduct .202. for the bolster and you get .659 to the FAR SIDE of the exit hole. The dimension from the outside of the breech to the CENTER LINE of the exit hole is .6325 (the width of the breech without the bolster divided by 2). That would suggest that the clean out hole extends past the exit by .0255 BUT that's not really the case because the wire went to the far side of the rather to the center of it. To sum up, I don't think there's run out of the clean out hole. And, when I shine a light on the exit hole, I can see the end of the wire hit the side of the exit channel. Granted, I'm not the best guy with a dial caliper, but I think I'm close.

Thanks for your suggestion. I actually thought that I was going to find the problem.

Regards,

Duane Spyer

[CAGerringer]

I like this train of thought. If the flame is not being trapped in the channel, then where? I had a problem with my Smith where the chamber under the nipple eroded. I had to have the area built up so the flame could make it over to the flame channel instead of down below it. I've never seen an Erma Gallager, so I don't know what the inside of the bolster looks like. Could your flame be going too low in the bolster to make it into the flame channel?
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[Lou Lou Lou]

FWIW
some repro smiths have hollow bolsters. Thus no ignition until hollow fills with carbon and direct flame out. Had to have a threaded rod , drilled and inserted to get teammates gun shooting

[gemmer]

I like this train of thought. If the flame is not being trapped in the channel, then where? I had a problem with my Smith where the chamber under the nipple eroded. I had to have the area built up so the flame could make it over to the flame channel instead of down below it. I've never seen an Erma Gallager, so I don't know what the inside of the bolster looks like. Could your flame be going too low in the bolster to make it into the flame channel?
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

The thing is, I drilled out the touch holes on several case with a #41 drill which is what Spence Wolfe suggested to do to .45-70 cases for Trapdoors. I figured it might work. The hole is big enough for the 3F powder to leak out. I covered the base of the case with a piece of curler paper like I do with Charlie Hahn's tubes. As long as the powder was compressed to keep it in place, the carbine fired. It's the only way it does so, but the flame is reaching the case. The only thing I can think of at this point is that perhaps there's erosion at the face of the flash channel hole making it too wide for the flame to hit the tiny touch hole on the case. Making the hold bigger allows more of the wider flame to hit the powder. That's just a guess and I have not idea how to determine if that's what's happening. I've had the carbine for four years and up until around six months ago, I never had an ignition problem. I had a few here and there since then. If I picked the touch hole like for a flintlock, it would fire on the next try. Last week I could not get ANY of them to fire. Whether it's the carbine or the cases, I'm at a loss to know how this happened all of a sudden. I'm going to compare the exit hole size on my Sharps to the one on the Gallagher.

Thanks for your feedback.

Duane Spyer

[Toddj]

I had the same problem when a bought an Erma Gallagher last year. Kept getting misfires to the point that it only shot about 1 out of 4 times. I talked to a lot of people and some modified the clean out screw, rounded the end of it so the fire would have less resistance going through. I'm not that smart or that good to do it to mine. What I did do is try about every cap made. Still had the same problem UNTIL a team member loaned me caps that they don't make anymore, the vorderlader-zundhutchen No. 1081 FL wingless caps. I used those for an entire shoot and not a single misfire. So I bought all I could find. I have not had a misfire since. I don't think any of the new caps are as hot as what they use to make. They seem to be made for more modern blackpowder weapons.

[gemmer]

I had the same problem when a bought an Erma Gallagher last year. Kept getting misfires to the point that it only shot about 1 out of 4 times. I talked to a lot of people and some modified the clean out screw, rounded the end of it so the fire would have less resistance going through. I'm not that smart or that good to do it to mine. What I did do is try about every cap made. Still had the same problem UNTIL a team member loaned me caps that they don't make anymore, the vorderlader-zundhutchen No. 1081 FL wingless caps. I used those for an entire shoot and not a single misfire. So I bought all I could find. I have not had a misfire since. I don't think any of the new caps are as hot as what they use to make. They seem to be made for more modern blackpowder weapons.

I used those caps for years for all my muskets and my Sharps. I still had some left when I got the Gallagher. Up until recently, the Schuetzen and winged RWS caps worked pretty well. I'll take a look at the clean out screw.

Thanks,

Duane Spyer.

[gemmer]

I compared the exit hole on my Sharps to the Gallagher and the Gallagher's is bigger. But in retrospect , I don't see that as an issue because the flared exit hole fits into the concave base of the case right up against the touch hole. I know that because when I close the action, the bullet is pushed into the rifling. Another of my theories busted.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Does the flash hole in the case line up With the guns flashhole?

[gemmer]

Does the flash hole in the case line up With the guns flashhole?
Yes. I put some inletting transfer around the hole in the case and it showed up around the exit hole in the breech.

[noonanda]

FWIW
some repro smiths have hollow bolsters. Thus no ignition until hollow fills with carbon and direct flame out. Had to have a threaded rod , drilled and inserted to get teammates gun shooting

lou do you know who does this work? I have a Smith that has this exact problem

[george7542]

Have had bob gorsky with the 8th Virginia do two of my Smith's does very nice work.

[John Holland]

That would be the "8th VA" for Bob G.

[bobanderson]

Larry Flees can also rework the Smith ignition system.

Ljflees@hotmail.com

231-342-0821

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

I played around with a Gallager (correct spelling) years ago. I started with an Erma with the machine gun rifling and eventually had Hoyt reline it with a better twist where it would use a .516" bullet that was not heeled. I used the brass cases. I found that my ignition problems, particularly with the first round were due to gas leakage at the base of the case. I put a little grease down in the base of the chamber around the flash hole and the first shot would go off. It was clearly leaking gas when everything was squeaky clean. I still put a little grease on the flange of the first round when I shoot my Maynard for the same reason. I don't know whether this will help you or not but it worked with the Gallager that I shot.

[Bob Gorsky 10483]

Some Erma's do burn out on the inside just like Smith's which cause all kinds of ignition problems. Repairs need to be done by a qualified machinist weather it's me or someone else.
Thanks,
Bob

[Lou Lou Lou]

As noted elsewhere: Bob Gorski,Larry Flees and Hahn all do great work

[clowdis]

I would think that if something mechanical went suddenly bad (like your carbine did in this case) that it would be obviously apparent what has failed. To me it seems like you have gone through just about everything that can be checked in relation to the flame channel and brass cases and you haven't found anything any different than when the carbine was shooting fine a year or two ago. That leaves only two things that could be wrong, caps and powder. If you can find some different caps from somebody else, maybe some older more powerful ones, I would give a tin of those a try. Seems like I was using German caps and CCI caps (wingless) when I was using the carbine. But I do remember there being a difference in brand of caps and how they worked.

[gemmer]

I would think that if something mechanical went suddenly bad (like your carbine did in this case) that it would be obviously apparent what has failed. To me it seems like you have gone through just about everything that can be checked in relation to the flame channel and brass cases and you haven't found anything any different than when the carbine was shooting fine a year or two ago. That leaves only two things that could be wrong, caps and powder. If you can find some different caps from somebody else, maybe some older more powerful ones, I would give a tin of those a try. Seems like I was using German caps and CCI caps (wingless) when I was using the carbine. But I do remember there being a difference in brand of caps and how they worked.

I've tried Swiss 3F and GOEX 3F. Same results. I'm using the same I was using when I had to issues. I think it's time to send it out to a pro.

[clowdis]

Well be sure to post the cure!

[gemmer]

Well be sure to post the cure!

Count on it!!

[gemmer]

Some Erma's do burn out on the inside just like Smith's which cause all kinds of ignition problems. Repairs need to be done by a qualified machinist weather it's me or someone else.
Thanks,
Bob

PM has been sent.

[Steve Weems]

I found the old CCI 0300 caps worked well in getting the Gallager to fire- especially on that first shot. I have serious sellers regret to this day. I believe the 0300 cap is the one CCI quit producing due to that lawsuit. I am holding on to a few thousand in case I get lucky and come across another.