Load workups today with new Smith Carbine.

[Maillemaker]

So I bought a like-new 2019-manufacture Pietta Smith off of Gunbroker a few weeks ago.

I ordered up some of the Yore Supply tubes, and some black plastic tubes from S&S firearms. I also purchased some brass grommets from North East Trade Company to install in the black tubes. The Yore tubes come with brass grommets already installed.

I am shooting the Eras Gone Smith bullet. It drops at .518 in pure lead, and I am sizing it to .515 with a Lee custom sizing die, which took about 2 weeks to get.

I made up 5 shots each of 25, 27, 29, 31, and 33 grains of 3F Goex. In the Yore tubes, I put a paper disk on top of the powder, and then put cream of wheat filler on top of that and under the bullet.

With the black tubes, there was not much of an air gap it seemed between the powder and the bullet even at 25 grains, so I did not bother with filler in the black tubes.

I started off with the Yore tube loads, and nothing made a good group. I brushed between every 5 shot group. I did not wipe, until towards the end I noticed when looking down the barrel from the breech end that there was a dark deposit at the muzzle 1/3rd of of the bore. So, I wiped for the last group.

So it's a bit of an apples and oranges workup and comparison. The Yore tubes had filler, the black ones did not. And the best group, the last one, I cleaned before it.

The whole day was depressing until I got to the last group! The gun has a terrible trigger - it has two distinct "creeps" before it goes bang.

The Yore tubes are much more "rubbery" than the hard plastic black tubes. I feel like the black tubes will hold the bullet more rigidly in axial alignment. With the Yore tubes, you can easily get the bullet to sit crooked in the case mouth and you have to be careful to seat it square. The black tubes force this automatically.

In the pictures where there are less than 5 shots on the paper the missing shots went off the paper. I did not bother taking a picture of the cardboard with the Yore tubes since the groups were so terrible.

Yore tubes (only posting links since the forum only allows 4 images per post).
https://i.imgur.com/zZ4wVhL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BxcHuh7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZMxy0yi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/skgPSha.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XqZXZNW.jpg

Black tubes:
https://i.imgur.com/e8trtI4l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/R9llYV6l.jpg

33 grains 3F Goex gave the best group. The shot on the right is actually a flier from the 27 grain target. 33 grains is the max capacity of the black tube with this bullet, which works out great as there is no need for filler or anything. Just dump in the powder and go. I'll have to have another session now to verify the result.

https://i.imgur.com/lbK5jCXl.jpg

Full-size pictures here: https://imgur.com/a/F4BTlhU

[Eggman]

Lube? Very shallow grove Pietta needs lots of lube.

[Kevin Tinny]

Nice to see the results:

Seems promising w 33gr, black tubes and .515".
Did you record loaded OAL and if bullet engraves a bit?
Regardless, for next session use whatever OAL shot well
Verticals can be you, bench, how you hold, extended sighting time.
These need a firm, but consistent hold.
Watch sight picture very carefully and start over if ANY concerns.

Is that nice group from a firelapped barrel? If not, it seems fine since no flyers.
I would leave it alone for now.
Did patches indicate any leading?
Sometimes it is combined with fouling if 1st patch wetted.
I use a dry one for first pass to get a better look.
I rarely see any over 35 - 50 shots with no wiping if groups consistently good.

Suggest testing 32, 33, 34 with same setup. No need to split into .5gr groups yet.
Once charge resolved, shoot 20 to 30 rounds with it in 5-shot groups with CARE and compare 1st and last groups. If ok, you are there in terms of load and barrel.

Trigger next. Parts will need expert work and hardening.
My skilled target shooting buddies always used the gun with the best trigger.
Don't skimp there.

Thanks for sharing.
Kevin Tinny

[Maillemaker]

Lube? Very shallow grove Pietta needs lots of lube.

I dip-lubed them, and I pre-heated the bullets on the same hot plate I melted the lube in. I dipped them, wiped their bottoms, and then set them to cool. Most of the lube ran off, with some being held by capillary action in the groove. I had sized them ahead of time. I believe next time I will not pre-heat the bullets, so that more lube stays, and then re-size them to wipe off the excess. This should leave the lube groove "full to the rim".


Did you record loaded OAL and if bullet engraves a bit?

I did some testing with empty cases with bullets and found that when the action was closed the bullet was seated basically until the top of the top band was pushed flush with the case mouth. So, when I put the bullets in the cases, I leave them so I can see just a bit of top band at the case mouth. On closing the action, this should fully seat the bullet.


Is that nice group from a firelapped barrel? If not, it seems fine since no flyers.

I did no firelapping. Today is the first day I have fired it.


Did patches indicate any leading?

I'm not sure. I can barely get a patch down it. I don't have a .50 cleaning jag yet. The one S&S sent me is too big to fit in the barrel so I sent it back. I've got another jag that fits but barely and tears patches when I put it down the barrel. But, it's all I have right now. I might have a 50 bore mop for cleaning.

Steve

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks on no firelapping, Steve:

As for rod jag tip, try a 45 or whatever diameter fits, even if you must double layer the patch.
I frequently double-over. Seems fine.

Each element may not yet be optimal, but you are ok for now.
Phase one over as long as you can go back and repeat that 33gr group,
which will be established when you do 32, 33, 34.

Testing with a grain less and more should amount to fine tuning. .515" is close enough.
This isn't benchrest stuff. You might get 1- inchers at 50, but 1.5's are great. Trying to achieve 1" takes way more work and seems difficult to do consistently.
Leave that for after you can do 1.75 at 50 all day from the bench.
Then test at 100 for eye openers.

Trigger work ......

The absence of tipped/oval holes in target is a reasonable sign your diameter is close enough.
I have shot groove OD, .001" and .0015" over groove and see little difference.
In my Smith a bit of temper helps rather than pure. Not too hard.

Tippers are usually a sign of gas cutting from undersize bullets if twist and OD fit are ok.

If you had a major lube issue, you would not have had a decent group so your lube is good enough for now. Make sure the lube groove is full. VERY lightly lube w fingers and then size. Then dip and wipe base to get full coating. When pushing over-lubed bullet into black plastic case, the excess forms a ring on case shoulder. I twist it into that angle and leave it.

Once you resolve the fine tune powder charge for group, then test it at 100, finally lubes.

Please keep the pictures coming. Cabin fever. Thanks

Kevin

[Maillemaker]

This isn't benchrest stuff. You might get 1- inchers at 50, but 1.5's are great. Trying to achieve 1" takes way more work and seems difficult to do consistently.

I agree. My metric for N-SSA accuracy is off a bench at 50 you should be able to make single ragged hole in the paper. If it does that, it shoots better than me. If this 33 grain load is repeatable, then this gun will do that.


If you had a major lube issue, you would not have had a decent group so your lube is good enough for now. Make sure the lube groove is full. VERY lightly lube w fingers and then size. Then dip and wipe base to get full coating. When pushing over-lubed bullet into black plastic case, the excess forms a ring on case shoulder. I twist it into that angle and leave it.

I think what I will do is re-dip them and sacrifice one of the tubes and cut the base off. Then I will push my lubed bullets through it to smear off the excess.

Steve

[Eggman]

I think what I will do is re-dip them and sacrifice one of the tubes and cut the base off. Then I will push my lubed bullets through it to smear off the excess.
Steve
End result after 6-7 shots barrel will cake up - accuracy out the window. You need more lube at work to keep fouling soft. Read Kevin again. Why run thru a cut ctg case at all -- load bullet covered with lots of lube (not dipped;layered on) in case, shape excess that pushes out around exposed bullet. What lube do you use? Is it Len's Lube? You need a lube that not only scrapes off as it progresses down the bore but also melts.

[Maillemaker]

Turns out it was simple to just push them through the sizer again. But, lube builds up on the base of the nose, so it may be just as easy to push them into the cases and then wipe the noses with a rag.

But, now I have "filled to the rim" lubed bullets.
https://i.imgur.com/geIomZfl.jpg

I use 50/50 beeswax/Crisco for lube.

Steve

[Eggman]

Well that sure looks good. Proof of the pudding, will it hold tight at least 10 or 12 shots, typical 50 yd event. My view is you just can't glob too much on.

[Michael Bodner]

Turns out it was simple to just push them through the sizer again. But, lube builds up on the base of the nose, so it may be just as easy to push them into the cases and then wipe the noses with a rag.

But, now I have "filled to the rim" lubed bullets.
https://i.imgur.com/geIomZfl.jpg

I use 50/50 beeswax/Crisco for lube.

Steve


Steve,

Your bullets are the same as mine. Mine shoot great. I personally lube before I size. They go through the sizer much easier with lube than without. Also, I keep the excess lube on the nose of the bullet (after passing nose-first through the sizer). Once I seat the bullet into the plastic case, I smear the lube down with my finger to make a fillet between the bullet and the edge of the case. This small amount of extra lube allows me to get to the end of the pigeon board without fouling out...

-Mike

[Maillemaker]

Sounds good, Mike! Might help protect the case mouth a bit, too.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

I did another load workup today with the Pietta Smith. Since the first load workup I have gotten this back from Larry Flees who cut the chamber a bit deeper and put in a new lead.

This time I did 10 shots each of 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, and 34 grains 3F Goex. I shot 5 shots on 2 targets for each charge group.

The cartridges used the black tubes, with brass grommets installed in the touch holes. I put a .5" cardboard wad over the powder, and cream of wheat filler between the wad and the bullet. The bullet is the Eras Gone Smith, cast in pure lead. Bullets were weighed and anything outside of one standard deviation was discarded. Lube is 50/50 beeswax/Crisco.

Full-size pictures here: https://imgur.com/a/MKVTmme

Here is how the data turned out:

https://i.imgur.com/5kZsonr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/O933tdU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/V4CxuP3.jpg

Based on the data, it looks like 32 grains 3F Goex gives the best group.

[Maillemaker]

https://i.imgur.com/AZcxnHPl.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/CFdwtsEl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/I3ffAJdl.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/7ubnHYjl.jpg

[Maillemaker]

https://i.imgur.com/vEecLbPl.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/8R4hvjjl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Fj7spKYl.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/alwIapbl.jpg

[Maillemaker]

https://i.imgur.com/KdJFb4tl.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/yvRokA3l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2V5OWHRl.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/vfTb5uNl.jpg

[Maillemaker]

https://i.imgur.com/BxX3fqbl.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/BTrzEaal.jpg

[Hal]

Steve,

I must not be understanding what you mean by mean group size. Some of the numbers (Like .467" for 32 grains) are smaller than a bullet and the pics of the targets (Assuming the black is roughly 4") look more like 2" groups to me (Which is pretty good in my book). Are those scoring rings the same as or similar to regular N-SSA targets? Are we talking average distance from group center or ......? I'm confused.

[Maillemaker]

Good question, Hal,

I'll have to go re-check the data now.

The way the software works is, you draw a line on the target and tell it how long it is. This gives it a sense of scale of the target. So I draw a line across the black, which is 4" in diameter.

Then, as you input bullet holes, it calculates the mean group diameter. It's hard to see in these pictures, but if you go look at the full-size pictures, you can see the mean circle.

But, looking at it now in relation to the 10-ring, which is 2" in diameter, I believe what the software is reporting as Mean is the radius of the circle! Which means the number for group sizes should all be doubled.

Good catch. I'm going to confirm with the author of the software.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Hey Hal, you are right!

The Mean given is the Mean Radius!

https://i.imgur.com/STyCi1N.png

Here is the corrected (doubled) data:

https://i.imgur.com/WLNzeoz.png
https://i.imgur.com/qbAGMhI.png

Steve

[Sven205]

Steve,

Are you using the "on target" software or something different for your scoring and measurements?

[Maillemaker]

Yup this is the PC OnTarget software.

Steve

[Hal]

Thanks Steve.