A Question Regarding 1858 Chambers

[hobbler]

Got a question for competing revolver shooters.
Looking at a Pietta .44 target model cylinder that somebody hosed up by doing a really icky job on the chambers trying to ream them.
And, while pondering what I wanted to do* a thought wizzed beneath my forehead and I think this might be just the place to discuss it. So, here goes.

When using reduced loads for greater accuracy it isn't uncommon for people to use a filler to take up the space and keep the ball from having to jump further to the rifling. The result of that in my experience is to have variations in the degree of compression and the ball to barrel distance. Not huge but there none the less. And there's always the unfortunate facts of Mediterranean machining in that oval chambers and variations in diameters push one to true up the chambers by reaming. So if you're going to go through the experience of reaming the chambers why not start with a .36 cylinder, ream it just deep enough to seat the .45X" diameter ball and have a positive stop in each chamber that precisely controls the seating depth for 100% shot to shot consistency?

So thank you for your time and any insightful commentary. And here's hoping I helped relieve the boredom of hiding from the bat bug.


*Had a new in the box spare cylinder and stuck it in. Now its factory fresh. :)

[Mike McDaniel]

I think that was Tom Ball's approach. Buy a .36 Remington, rebarrel it in .44, and bore out the chambers. Correcting the chamber alignment in the process.

[hobbler]

Ah ha.
Have any idea about whether he used a positive position stop, to create a precise seating depth on each chamber?

[Chris Sweeney]

No he did not. they were straight walled chambers. If you are talking about a step upon which the ball would rest, this would indeed make fore consistent seating depth, but the amount of compression is still dependent on how much powder and filler is under the step.Probably even more difficult to control than with straight chambers

[hobbler]

I was thinking about it from the stand loading the powder and any filler and not compressing it.
In other words, fill the space. Reckon would have to use cream of wheat rather than cornmeal.
Any how, the more info and thoughts the merrier.
A step is certainly not something I'd care to deal with in the field. For scores on paper though, eh, it might work out.

[bobanderson]

I love to tinker and I have some machine tools. Makes for a strange combination sometime.

I had the idea several years ago of boring a 36 caliber cylinder to seat 44 balls to the correct depth, leaving a powder only space under the ball. Being short of funds to buy and then scrap a new cylinder, I got a bad 44 cylinder and sliced it to see/measure the chambers and their profiles. Using that, I machined an insert that took up the excess space and seated the ball just at the end of the cylinder. Took me quite a bit of time to turn down, bore out and fit to the cylinder. (I'm a hobbyist, not a machinist) There were some issues with the design of an 1858 cylinder that I had to work through, such as nipples not directly on top of the bore.

Anyway, when I decided it was time to test it, I fired a rested first shot at a target, missed completely and launched my insert off into the woods never to be seen again. Took me so long to make it, I just dropped the project.

I'm a lousy pistol shot anyways.

If I ever get an extra 36 cylinder that fits my Tom Ball Pietta, I might try it again.

[Maillemaker]

Anyway, when I decided it was time to test it, I fired a rested first shot at a target, missed completely and launched my insert off into the woods never to be seen again. Took me so long to make it, I just dropped the project.

LOL! Great story!

I think when they do barrel relines they use some form of "super" Loctite to permanently glue the barrel in place. I wonder if that would work with a chamber sleeve?

As far as spare cylinders, EMF had a sale last Christmas where you could get a 1858 Remington with spare cylinder for like $234. I thought that was a pretty good deal. Maybe they'd have some 36s that way.

Steve

[Chris Sweeney]

OK you mean a positive stop on the loader plunger, not in the cylinder? Many ( but not all) of the loading tools available have some sort of a lip that doesn't allow seating past a certain depth. You can get the seating depth consistent, but not always the depth you want. Last 2 I had, 1 was seating too deep, the other not deep enough.

[bobanderson]

OK you mean a positive stop on the loader plunger, not in the cylinder? Many ( but not all) of the loading tools available have some sort of a lip that doesn't allow seating past a certain depth. You can get the seating depth consistent, but not always the depth you want. Last 2 I had, 1 was seating too deep, the other not deep enough.

The loader with a stop is designed to seat the ball to the same distance from the forcing cone, giving a consistent jump into the rifling. The use of filler between the ball and powder doesn't guarantee the same seating depth due to the compressibility of both. Most black powder shooters hold to the theory that any air gap is 1) dangerous and 2) inaccurate. I don't believe either but an air gap could affect start pressure which leads to accuracy issues.

[hobbler]

A positive stop inside of each chamber, something about like a .04" x 45 degree ledge, avoiding a flat bottom counterbore.

[hobbler]

Oh, something else the messed up cylinder made me think about...
Instead of trying to enlarge the chambers to match the barrel, why not put a smaller barrel on the Piettas to match the chamber?
That way you could have the rifling you want as well as the right diameter.

[bobanderson]

Instead of trying to enlarge the chambers to match the barrel, why not put a smaller barrel on the Piettas to match the chamber?

The ramblings of an enthusiast here...

I think the size difference between the cylinder bore and the groove diameter is intentional. All bullets obturate, that is bump up to the largest space available during firing. For the 44 caliber revolver, the accurized ones start with a .457 ball that leaves a small lead ring when seated into a cylinder. Say that ball fires from the cylinder into the forcing cone at .455 and then gets swaged down to about .452 to fully engage the rifling until it exits the muzzle. I have a 36 caliber Uberti that is marked Lyman that wouldn't group worth beans until I went to .380 round balls. I think that is the same situation.
I got that gun about 25 years ago at a gun show so don't know if it had been fiddled with before I got it.