Powder maker conversion

[PapaRob]

Found myself with an abundance of swiss 3f and need to change over some goex 3f loads to swiss 3f...is there a reliable formula that works in conversion?

For instance if I use 35 gr of goex 3f for a smith round, how much would that work out to using swiss 3f?... I have heard it's an -11% conversion but can't verify it anywhere. Using that conversion it would be right at 31.15 gr of swiss...that sound right?

Before I test it I want to make sure I am at least in the same zip code as the accepted formula.

Thanks All

[PapaRob]

According to a field test on muzzleloadingforum.com using standard identical loads, 2f GOEX has 88% of 2f Swiss power; 3f GOEX has 95% of 3f Swiss power.

wow that is a difference in what I understood...thanks for the info. This gives me a decent starting point.

[Eggman]

Remember when you buy that expensive Swiss powder you're only buying a 5% bump.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

This might be old info, but:

While the strength differences between brands are, I guess, normal, the UNIFORMITY of the grains is not in some brands.

It has been known for years that Swiss is the "cleanest" and most uniform in grain SIZE.

Other brands have presented as much as 10% sub-sized particles in a can.
We learned to remove sub-sized with CARE, using brass sifting screens in small amounts -outdoors!

Leaving "fines" in a powder measure resevoir will unevenly distribute them within a set volume much like a in load of gravel settling in a moving truck.

Removal of the "fines" reduced our weighed charges shot to shot muzzle velocity RANGE in HALF, everything else the same. A good chrono, properly used resolves lots.

Doubled velocity range can create misses at 100.

I used SIFTED GOEX for years with great results. Before that we had (more) odd shots. .

Just sharing, if it helps, please. Thanks.

Kevin Tinny

[CAGerringer]

Kevin,
How do you sift 3F Goex?
Is there a tool or accessory we can buy?
I've thought about the need to do this for years, but just didn't have a clue how to go about it.
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[Eggman]

I'm with you Charlie. This looks like a perfect way to obtain 4f priming powder without having to buy a separate can.

[Kurt Lacko 7862]

Kevin, as others have asked, what # mesh screen are you using on Goex 3F.

Thanks, Kurt

[Kevin Tinny]

Ok, sorry, been sidetracked:

There are black powder screen opening spec's but I have lost them.
Mine came from DuPont's Moosic PA plant. 1970's stuff.
No need for them or a lab setup because any mesh that removes fines will be ok.

Pour a sample onto white paper and inspect for sub-sized "fines". But they could be in another area of the container. Maybe your lot is cleaner than another and if fines minimal, consider not sifting.

Mine are 8" pans #30, but smaller size in #30 would be ok. Stainless won't oxidize from sulfur.
W. S. TYLER Co. 8570 Tyler Blvd. MENTOR, OH 44060
I suggest a call and to get one screen. No need to fuss with micron sizes.
If you must ... try a No 30, but an "aperture" of between .185" and .022" is practical.

That "aperture" will stop 3F and pass fines and dust.
That's sufficient to improve granulation consistency.

I started with simple nylon outdoor screen stapled to a wooden box frame because my big guns used 2Fg. A large screen mesh kitchen sieve, not tea strainer, might do for starters.

Regards, Kevin

[CAGerringer]

Thanks, Kevin. Now, one more question... "an aperture of between .185" and .022" is practical."

Do you, or anyone else, know of anywhere that sells screening by aperture size?

Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[Eggman]

Well at the risk of becoming my natural obnoxious self - that .02" hole ain't gonna let much thru. I think your parameters are a bit too wide. The only thing going thru there would be dust. I guess I need some remedial instruction.

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, Charley and Eggman:

The "aperture" term is used by W. S. Tyler on its website.

I ran Swiss 3F through my Tyler No 40 with an aperture of .0165".
No fines and ALL the 3F SWISS stayed on the screen.

I think GOEX 3Fg has a slightly larger particle size, hence my slightly larger aperture suggestion.

The simplest way is to grab mom's sifter and see. Otherwise buy three aperture sizes.

More:
Doggy Mama (Robin) home and has "sifter" with screen and crank for baking.
Ask around and see if that gets you started. Afr. Arf.

Many yesrs ago I had lab sifting pans made by F. P. Smith Wire Cloth Co. but now their 'site seems more about heavy screening. Could call and ask.

Try Tyler for "wire cloth" or Google "wire cloth".

Kevin

[Maillemaker]

There is a huge, 100+ page long thread on the CastBoolits forum under the Muzzleloading sub-forum about making your own black powder, and they talk about the size screens you need to sort out by grain size.

Can't remember what they were or what page so you'll have to go dig. :)

Steve

[Eggman]

More:Doggy Mama (Robin) home and has "sifter" with screen and crank for baking.
Ask around and see if that gets you started. Afr. Arf.


This best approximates my comprehension level. Sifter it is!

[Muley Gil]

This best approximates my comprehension level. Sifter it is!


Just make sure and clean it real good. Goex in yore cake batter might make Mama a mite testy. :D

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

With some hesitation, here is raw info from page 22 of a Pouderie D'Aubonne S.A. (Aubonne Powder Factory, on Lake Geneva) paper. I think someone here, perhaos Bob Anderson, copied me with it years ago. This paper is 36 pages long and contains a wealth of comparative data.

If wished, please PM me your email address and I will try to send it to you.
I have searched for the paper and found only pieces of it on other Forums under "sifting black powder". The US distributor that made it available has another entity name and its website has only a redone one pager showing some of the above.

"The Swiss black powder plant using (sic) a grain sizing system that is not used in the U.S. This different grain sizing system has caused a considerable amount of confusion with American black powder shooters who try and relate the Swiss grain sizes to those commonly used in the U.S. for well over 100 years. The following data gives a comparison of the Swiss grain sizes to those more commonly seen in the U.S.

U.S. Swiss Screen openings in mm. Rough conversion to U.S. screen sizes

4Fg #1. .226 - .508 mm. 32 mesh - 60 mesh

3Fg. #2. .508 - .870 mm. 18 mesh - 32 mesh

2Fg. #3. .670 - 1.36 mm. 12 mesh - 24 mesh

1.5Fg. #4. .900 - 1.36 mm. 12 mesh - 18 mesh

1Fg. #5. 1.20 - 1.60 mm. 10 mesh - 14 mesh

Compared to U.S. screen sizes.
3Fg. 20 mesh - 50 mesh
2Fg 16 mesh - 30 mesh
1Fg 12 mesh - 16 mesh

The Swiss 1Fg is slightly larger than U.S. 1Fg.
The Swiss 1 & 1/2 Fg (1.5) Fg is very close to a U.S. 1Fg.
The Swiss 2Fg is slightly larger than a U.S. 2Fg.
The Swiss 3Fg is larger in size compared to a U.S. 3Fg.
The Swiss 4Fg is not nearly as fine as a U.S. 4Fg..

With the sporting powder burn rate and ballistic strength in the Swiss powder it
becomes necessary to deviate from our 3 grain sizes used in propelling charges to give a
greater degree of flexibility in dealing with various bore sizes and projectile weights.

It should be pointed out that prior to 1890, C& H used 9 different grain sizes to cover the total range of our present 4 U.S. grain sizes.

In the U.S. grain sizing system: the average size of 3Fg is half the average size of
2Fg, while the average size of 2Fg is half the average size of 1Fg. In effect, 3Fg is half
the size of 2Fg while 2Fg is half the size of 1Fg."

The 36 pages are full of this sort of info and strength comparion firing and chrono tests.

My kitchen table summary is:
For sifting fines, not lab work, the apertures/mm sizes above convert into:
US. Swiss. MM grain size. Inch grain size
3F #2 .508 - .870 .O2O - .034
2F #3 .670 - 1.36. .264 - .054

So, my original estimated aperture size of between .185" and .022" seems ok for sifting US 3F to remove fines. Asking a wire cloth vendor for that " aperture range" should be enough.

Now I have to put a copy on my wife's sifter!

Kevin Tinny

[Maillemaker]

Thanks for the info!

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Willie's contention is that black powder strength has nothing to do with grain size.

One could very easily confirm or disprove this by shooting through a chronometer an equal weight of 2F and 3F powder.

Steve