Starting pointers for a newbie (Pedersoli P53)

[Smokepole]

Hey there.

I'm not an N-SSA shooter, I live far too north for that kind of thing (Stuck in No-Fun-Allowed Canada. Though it is something I'd love to participate in some day.) and I recently started getting into Black Powder rifle shooting. Was able to put some money aside and purchased myself a brand new Pedersoli P1853 Enfield Three Band. This was right before our winter set in, so I was only able to get three trips out to the range to get some shooting done with the thing. Was a blast for sure, but one thing I noticed is that my minie-balls were going just about everywhere but what I was aiming at. At a hundred yards, I was noticing impacts about ten to fifteen feet to the sides of the target both ways and what sounds like a ricochet as the bullet left the barrel. This was with 60 grains of Goex FFg, 425 grain minies sized to .576 through a pedersoli push-through sizer. (It's listed as .577/.576, though the .577 stage measures out to about .5765)

The Minies were purchased from a lead bullet manufacturer here in Canada. I have very little to no sources for historical rifle shooting supplies up here so they were my only option. I'm not sure if it's the quality of the minie ball, the weight or other factors that might be at play for my groups to be minute of mammoth at such a distance, so I was hoping folks here would have some input on how to get the most out of my new gun.

I've got casting equipment on the way, should hopefully be seeing it in a week from now. I got some Pedersoli Dies recommended for the rifle, but it throws a whopping 650 grain long bullet with a very shallow skirt cavity. Gonna give them a try regardless but I'm curious if there are other molds out there folks have had success with for the Pedersoli P53.

Any input would be a huge help. Thanks!

[Muley Gil]

Welcome!

The first thing to look at is the type of lead used in your Minies. You want pure, soft lead. Hard lead will not open up and grip the rifling. Next, you want the Minie to be .001"-.002" under bore size. You may want to get a machinist to use pin gauges to determine the actual size.

There are a number of options for Minies. The Lyman 575213 is a good one. Lee makes inexpensive Minie moulds. Some folks like the Hodgdon. I would start at 40.0 grains of FFFg real black powder and work my way up 1.0-2.0 grains at a time. I use Goex black powder, although there are others. The N-SSA only allows real BP and I've never had good luck with the substitutes anyway.

Good luck with your shooting and perhaps you will be able to be on the line with us some day. :)

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

Smokepole,

You will likely get a bunch of responses with good advice here. Let me start by saying bullet fit is probably the most important factor in avoiding "minute of mammoth" groups. Using pure lead is the second most important factor. Don't trust your Enfield to be a true .577 caliber. Reproductions can vary considerably in bore size and you need a soft lead bullet that is no more than .002 under bore size if you want any kind or accuracy. Nor should you trust the quality control of commercial cast lead bullets. That "ricochet" sound you heard was likely a blown skirt on a poorly cast Minie. You will need to determine the exact bore size of your Enfield and cast your own bullets to fit.

Most of us who have been in this game awhile have multiple bullet moulds of different diameters and multiple sizing dies of different diameters so we can tailor our ammunition to a specific firearm. It is a simple matter of testing bullets sized in increments of .001" until you find one that just fits snugly inside the muzzle. You can get plug gauges that do the same thing.

Bullet lube can also affect accuracy and that has been a rather hot topic on this bulletin board in the past. Cold weather in your latitude can have an adverse effect on bullet lube. You want to use something relatively soft but not so soft that it might start to melt in a warm barrel.

I weigh my bullets and powder charges for optimum consistency but I'm probably in a minority among N-SSA shooters. Many do quite well without weighing things. I dare say most of us do not use full service charges of black powder. If you have a good fitting bullet of soft lead, a powder charge between 40 and 50 grains of FFFg should be adequate for target work. Once you have found a good fitting bullet you need to experiment with different powder charges to find the optimum load that will cut the best group. If you intend to hunt with your Enfield a service charge of 60 grains FFg may still be in order.

Good luck in finding the right combination!

Jim Burgess
15th Conn. Vol. Inf.

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Well said Jim.

[Maillemaker]

I no longer have my Pedersoli P53 as I traded it for a Pedersoli 1859 Sharps Carbine.

But when I had the Pedersoli, it had a .578 bore. Or rather, .578 bullets were the largest it would accept, so that is what I used.

Agree with what others have said. Pure lead is essential. Many people like to use 3F powder instead of 2F as it provides about the same bang for about 10% less powder. But sometimes you find that 2F just is what the gun likes.

The 575213 bullet is a good traditional minie type bullet. I also had good luck with the RCBS-500M. Mine dropps large enough to be sizeable at .578. You might also consider trying the RCBS-Hodgdon bullet.

Steve

[Harry Gaul]

Smokepole,

Would you be interested in trying a variety of bullets sized in 575 minies shipped. I will sell you 100 bullets of different styles sized in 575 for $40 dollars US shipped. Each bullet style will be identified with bullet manufacturer and style so that in the future you can look for the bullet mold that works for you.

True Blue and Diamond Hard,

Harry

3rd US

03626v

[Smokepole]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I was able to get the barrel checked yesterday and was given the following information:

Small Diameter (Land to Land) : 0.5787
Groove Depth : 0.0045
Large Diameter, groove to groove : 0.5877

So it looks like I've got something a fair bit larger than .577. Would I just round this up to .579 in this case? Not sure how peculiar you have to be with the overall sizing for matching bullets to the land to land diameter.

As for powder. The selection I have here is incredibly limited. I either have Pyrodex and other substitutes, and in rare cases when the Goex FFg powder shows up during black powder season here. Ordering it is a pain due to the costs involved. I was able to get in early and picked up four bottles of the Goex FFg when I had the opportunity, so thats what i'll have to use for the meantime.

As for the lube. What would you folks recommend? Just not sure what ratios/mixtures I should be setting up. Spring and summer here can get a bit on the hot/humid side (70f to 90f is common) if that helps determine anything.

Also, I'd be very interested in trying out those bullets Harry, Would the .575 sized bullets be adequate for the size of my barrel? What other folks have said that might be a bit too small for what I've currently got. I'd be happy to try them regardless. (Edit: Spoke to Harry already. Thanks!)

I have about 200+ of these commercial minie balls. Is there a way I can purify the lead myself or am I stuck with them as is? Still very new to this stuff, and im hoping to have my casting pot within a week or so.

Thanks again everyone.

[Smokepole]

Just a bump post, my last response was held up in the system until today.

[Lou Lou Lou]

You need a finished size of .578 if land to land is .5877.

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

Smokepole,

Your Minie bullet can't be any larger than your musket's land diameter (.578) and not much smaller. When you get your melting pot and a bullet mould of adequate diameter you can always melt down and recycle your supply of commercial bullets into something that better fits your bore. It will still take a lot of experimentation with whatever powder obtainable to find the optimum powder charge.

As for bullet lube, the original formulation was a mixture of beeswax and tallow. Some of us substitute shortening for the tallow or add things like olive oil to soften the beeswax. The proportions of ingredients can be adjusted depending on the season. You don't want it too hard or too soft (prone to melt easily). Commercial bullet lubes designed for black powder (SPG, MCM, etc.) may work well in summer but not so well in winter. Stay away from using any lubes containing Alox as that is intended for cast bullets in modern firearms. The purpose of the lube is to keep the black powder fouling soft. The Minies can scrape out the soft fouling from previous shots so the fouling doesn't build up in the bore. Some of us also put lube in the base cavity of the bullet to help this process but it is not absolutely necessary if you have adequate lube in the outer grease grooves. With adequate bullet lube you should be able to shoot continuously without having to clean or brush the bore.

Jim Burgess, 15th Conn. Vol. Inf.

[Maillemaker]

Small Diameter (Land to Land) : 0.5787
Groove Depth : 0.0045
Large Diameter, groove to groove : 0.5877

So it looks like I've got something a fair bit larger than .577. Would I just round this up to .579 in this case? Not sure how peculiar you have to be with the overall sizing for matching bullets to the land to land diameter.

Bullets are generally sized to the nearest .001". So, if your bore is .5787, a .578 bullet should fit. A .577 or even .576 should also work.

Basically, I size my bullets by .001" until it doesn't fit, and then step down .001". Obviously the bullet must be at least that size as cast - you can only size bullets down, not up. (I'm going to ignore tricks like swaging here).


As for powder. The selection I have here is incredibly limited. I either have Pyrodex and other substitutes, and in rare cases when the Goex FFg powder shows up during black powder season here. Ordering it is a pain due to the costs involved. I was able to get in early and picked up four bottles of the Goex FFg when I had the opportunity, so thats what i'll have to use for the meantime.

Pyrodex will work fine. So will FFG black powder.


As for the lube. What would you folks recommend? Just not sure what ratios/mixtures I should be setting up. Spring and summer here can get a bit on the hot/humid side (70f to 90f is common) if that helps determine anything.

You will get a million answers. 50/50 beeswax/crisco works fine. Or you can buy some commercial lube like SPG.


Also, I'd be very interested in trying out those bullets Harry, Would the .575 sized bullets be adequate for the size of my barrel? What other folks have said that might be a bit too small for what I've currently got. I'd be happy to try them regardless. (Edit: Spoke to Harry already. Thanks!)

.575 bullets will probably work fine. But the closer you get to bore size, the better off you'll be.


I have about 200+ of these commercial minie balls. Is there a way I can purify the lead myself or am I stuck with them as is? Still very new to this stuff, and im hoping to have my casting pot within a week or so.

If the bullets were not made of pure lead (ask the guy who made them), then there is no way to un-alloy the lead in a home setting. You're better off swapping the lead to someone who casts modern ammo in exchange for pure lead.

Steve

[Muley Gil]

Smokepole, can you scratch the bullets with your thumb nail? If so, the bullets should be soft enough to expand.

[Smokepole]

Thanks again for the replies!

The minie balls I have size consistently at .578 so i'll just try them as is. Gonna get stuff together to make the lube and cross my fingers that I'll see some improvements compared to what I have had. Will probably weigh a batch too and see how that goes.

As for scratching the lead. I can scratch the surface but not really dig into it. Can draw lines in it with my fingernails if anything. The seller claims 100% pure soft lead, so i'll just have to go with that.

Gonna try and find a bit of time to hit the range after work this week and see what I can come up with what I currently have. If not, i'll just have to wait 'til my casting stuff is all in order.

[Michael Bodner]

Regarding pure lead verses 'hard'. If you're an able-bodied male with decent hand strength, AND the bullets are hollow based with not too thick a skirt, you should be able to squeeze the bullet at the base and get some deformation. Not guarenteed, but it would be almost impossible with a 'hard' bullet whereas pure lead is possible...

Obviously, not very scientific, but worth a looky-look!

-Boots

[bobanderson]

Other ways to tell how hard your lead is...

If it's in ingots of a pound or more, drop them on a concrete surface from about waist high. A hard alloy will ring like a bell/tuning fork. Soft lead will hit with a dull thud.

When you melt hard lead, you get a bright shiny surface in the pot. Soft lead will have a definite blue tint.

If you cast enough bullets, you will find the eventual need for a lead hardness tester. I'm told the best ones are made by LBT (never tried), Cabintree (a friend has one and it works well) and Lee. I have the Lee, which is cheap and completely repeatable. The Lee is best used to compare different samples against each other. It does come with a chart that allows you to translate your test results against Brinnell numbers, but as long as I can see it is soft by testing, I don't care what number it is.
If you are a home machinist, you could turn out a simple drop point tool to test lead and compare different lots. Again, you would compare samples to work up a scale like with the Lee.

[Rick R]

This may not be possible for you but as you work up your load and get P53 humming, if you can connect with one of us and take a test drive with a skirmish proven musket it can keep you going. I used to hand my back up to new shooters, often while I was working on their muskets and it sure can be a boost to the enthusiasm seeing what waits and the end of the trail. Of course be prepared for a run at being recruited.

Good luck, you have great advice to work with from previous posters.

[Smokepole]

I very much appreciate all the help given here.

I live up north in Manitoba, Canada, and I doubt there is any sort of N-SSA activity north of the border. Though, I really really wish there was! I can't get enough of the video footage of the events that I have watched! Once the craziness dies down with the current world situation I am absolutely planning on making a trip to one of these events even if it's just to spectate. Though for the meantime, I'll just have to do my best to pass on the black powder bug on to my shooting buddies and see where we can go from there.

As for the lead. I only have it in cast bullet form. And having tried squishing it, I haven't had much luck even creating a little bit of deformity. The skirts at the narrowest point is about 0.08 of an inch according to my caliper so i'm not sure if that would be considered thick or thin for a minie ball. it rapidly thickens out up until half the length of the bullet where the cavity ends. The bullet itself is just shy of an inch in length.

Got some news though. I finally got my casting equipment in and plan on starting my first casts this weekend. The weather here took a turn for the worst and dumped a foot of snow on us the other day. Quite a pain in backside since the winters snow had come close to melting away fully. Back to being -30 again, so my plans for a range trip this weekend has been thrown out the window, I'll have to make up for that by cleaning the lead I have and cast what I can for the following weekend.

In terms of casting, The type I have is the Lyman Big Dipper furnace, a non dispensing type. How do you go about cleaning these pots once you are done casting? or is it fine to leave leftover lead and the like after it has cooled down?

Thanks again everyone. You have all been a great help.

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

I gather you have an electric furnace designed for use of a ladle and not a bottom pour pot. Unless you intend to use a different lead alloy for other types of cast bullets, there is no need to clean out the remaining lead in the bottom of the pot. It will all melt again with any new lead you add to the mix the next time you crank it up. I use a ladle and cast iron pot on a propane furnace for all my skirmish bullets and an electric bottom pour furnace for cast bullets of harder alloy used in my 6.5 mm and .30 caliber rifles.

Jim Burgess, 15th Conn. Vol. Inf.

[Hal]

It will actually melt quicker if there's lead left in it.