Conical revolver rounds

[PapaRob]

Been thinking about playing around with this to try and help my pistol accuracy (can't possibly hurt it). I have Piettas for the most part and a .454 ball leaves a decent lead ring, so what size/type of 45 mold would all suggest?

Thanks

[John Holland]

PapaRob - One of the things I found out about our revolver shooting was that the chambers in the cylinder weren't necessarily the right size for the bore. Even though your round ball may leave a nice ring of lead shaved off the ball, the ball may very well be undersize to the bore! You really need to slug the barrel to see what diameter ball you need to fill the groove depth in the barrel. Many shooters have had to ream the chambers to accept a larger diameter ball (projectile) in order to fill the groove depth and achieve the accuracy desired.

Just some of my personal experience for whatever it is worth!

[Don Dixon]

Bob,

If it's the revolver I sold to you it won't work any better with conicals. I gave you an accurate load for the revolver. Trust me, and practice. :)

Regards,
Don

[PapaRob]

No Don this is for the other ones that have stuck to me recently



Bob,

If it's the revolver I sold to you it won't work any better with conicals. I gave you an accurate load for the revolver. Trust me, and practice. :)

Regards,
Don

[Don Dixon]

Bob,

You've got two problems:

1.The twist rates in the barrels in Tom Ball's and Tri-L's guns are oriented toward round balls. Tom was pretty sophisticated about this stuff and after serious testing made his own conclusions about what worked.

2. If you a using the manufacturer's standard barrels, the second problem is loading the conical bullet. In 1854-5, when the U.S. Army was developing the Model 1855 rifle and rifle musket, it discovered that if the windage between the bullet and the bore as more than .005 inches, accuracy went progressively to hell as the windage increased. The reason was that the bullet was cocked in the bore in loading, and the amount of the angle it was cocked was unpredictable. If the bullet started off at an angle at the breech, it came out at an angle at the muzzle.....

So, how do you load a conical bullet in a muzzle loading revolver so that there is no angular displacement? I've never been able to figure that out. Some years ago, Preston Hewitt [Distinguished Skirmisher and Distinguished Revolver Shooter] and I played with it extensively and never solved the problem. Some of the best 50 yard scores I ever shot with any handgun [modern or black powder] - mid-90s - were shot with conical bullets in a .45 Colt cartridge cylinder in the 1858 Remington i sold you. But, when I tried loading the same bullets in the muzzle loading cylinder it didn't work. The problem was, I believe, in large part the angular displacement in the loading process. Ignoring the issue of .45 long Colt cartridge case vice muzzle loading cylinder, everything else was essentially the same.

John's comment about cylinder bore diameter is well taken, and in a number of Italian reproduction guns that haven't been modified by a competent gunsmith all six chambers in the cylinder do not necessarily align with the bore. The unmodified Italian guns sold here are for re-enactors, not shooters.

Have fun playing.

Regards,
Don

Distinguished Skirmisher Badge
Distinguished Revolver Shooter Badge (Silver)
Distinguished Beech Loader Shooter Badge
Distinguished Carbine Shooter Badge

[PapaRob]

Don,

oh I know the quality and precision or lack thereof in the italian repros. Like I said this is just tinking more or less. The Ball revolver I have is dead on so when I use it if there?s missing going on I am well aware of where the fault rests in that regard...lol.

As far as using conicals goes though I have seen some guys use them with pretty good results in plain stock italian guns so am considering using them for all the other revolvers I have ended up with over time if theres any benefit to be had. The people I have seen using them didn?t seem to be having issues with the misalignment of the rounds when loading. Loading lever shortened perhaps? But if you?re going to do that why not just get the whole bloody pistol tuned would be my next question. Right now I am not nearly as dedicated a revolver shooter as you are so this is all just ?playing?.

Your points have however sparked me to order a set of precision pin guages to be able to measure the bores at both ends to check them when I end up these pistols that seem to fall into my lap though. When you buy muskets for newbies to be starters in our thing, leathers, uniforms and other pieces of iron tend to end up as part of the package ya know?...lol

Thanks,

Rob

PS Sorry to hear about Gil. He was a good guy and a good skirmisher and will be missed.





Bob,

You've got two problems:

1.The twist rates in the barrels in Tom Ball's and Tri-L's guns are oriented toward round balls. Tom was pretty sophisticated about this stuff and after serious testing made his own conclusions about what worked.

2. If you a using the manufacturer's standard barrels, the second problem is loading the conical bullet. In 1854-5, when the U.S. Army was developing the Model 1855 rifle and rifle musket, it discovered that if the windage between the bullet and the bore as more than .005 inches, accuracy went progressively to hell as the windage increased. The reason was that the bullet was cocked in the bore in loading, and the amount of the angle it was cocked was unpredictable. If the bullet started off at an angle at the breech, it came out at an angle at the muzzle.....

So, how do you load a conical bullet in a muzzle loading revolver so that there is no angular displacement? I've never been able to figure that out. Some years ago, Preston Hewitt [Distinguished Skirmisher and Distinguished Revolver Shooter] and I played with it extensively and never solved the problem. Some of the best 50 yard scores I ever shot with any handgun [modern or black powder] - mid-90s - were shot with conical bullets in a .45 Colt cartridge cylinder in the 1858 Remington i sold you. But, when I tried loading the same bullets in the muzzle loading cylinder it didn't work. The problem was, I believe, in large part the angular displacement in the loading process. Ignoring the issue of .45 long Colt cartridge case vice muzzle loading cylinder, everything else was essentially the same.

John's comment about cylinder bore diameter is well taken, and in a number of Italian reproduction guns that haven't been modified by a competent gunsmith all six chambers in the cylinder do not necessarily align with the bore. The unmodified Italian guns sold here are for re-enactors, not shooters.

Have fun playing.

Regards,
Don

Distinguished Skirmisher Badge
Distinguished Revolver Shooter Badge (Silver)
Distinguished Beech Loader Shooter Badge
Distinguished Carbine Shooter Badge

[ChrisWBR]

[QUOTE=PapaRob;80228]Don,

oh I know the quality and precision or lack thereof in the italian repros. Like I said this is just tinking more or less. The Ball revolver I have is dead on so when I use it if there?s missing going on I am well aware of where the fault rests in that regard...lol.

As far as using conicals goes though I have seen some guys use them with pretty good results in plain stock italian guns so am considering using them for all the other revolvers I have ended up with over time if theres any benefit to be had. The people I have seen using them didn?t seem to be having issues with the misalignment of the rounds when loading. Loading lever shortened perhaps? But if you?re going to do that why not just get the whole bloody pistol tuned would be my next question. Right now I am not nearly as dedicated a revolver shooter as you are so this is all just ?playing?.

Your points have however sparked me to order a set of precision pin guages to be able to measure the bores at both ends to check them when I end up these pistols that seem to fall into my lap though. When you buy muskets for newbies to be starters in our thing, leathers, uniforms and other pieces of iron tend to end up as part of the package ya know?...lol

Thanks,

Rob



Rob, I've been shooting a conical in my Shooters Model Pietta for years with excellent results. Many of the people on my team also shoot conicals in their revolvers. Much quicker to load and we don't need to hassle with filler and lube (most of us use a lubrisizer on the bullets). I have found that a short Colt bullet seems to work pretty well in the Shooters Model, it does take some experimentation to find the right size bullet as many of the moulds throw one that's a bit small. I find that a .457 works well in my revolvers.
Chris

DSSA
DSCA Revolver

[P.Altland]

FYI, you still need to cap off each chamber with lube when using a conical.


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[ChrisWBR]

FYI, you still need to cap off each chamber with lube when using a conical.


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No, not if you lube the bullets first. I have not lubed my chambers in years. The lube on the bullets suffice. There was a discussion around this in the past as regards the rules. You can either lube your conicals or lube the chamber after loading if you load a dry bullet. Either works.

[P.Altland]

No, not if you lube the bullets first. I have not lubed my chambers in years. The lube on the bullets suffice. There was a discussion around this in the past as regards the rules. You can either lube your conicals or lube the chamber after loading if you load a dry bullet. Either works.

Sorry to disagree, but you?re incorrect. There is nothing in the rules that creates an exception for conical rounds.


20.6 (b) Filler or wads may be used in the chambers, and all chambers must be greased.


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[lmcmahon]

I've deleted most of this thread due to actions of a few users. N-SSA Rule 20.6 is the approved method. Until this section is rewritten, that's the rule. If you don't agree with this, take it up the chain of command to have it changed.