What model Enfield is this?

[GDU]

Hi all,

First post.
I hope you can help with a few questions on my latest purchase.
I have been after a good Enfield for a while, but it?s pretty hard to find one with a decent bore.
Anyhow, this one came along that ticks all the boxes, a two bander made by F T Baker London.
I am not sure however where this rifle fits in the scheme of things, I?m picking it?s a model 56 in volunteer pattern (33 inch barrel)?
I cannot seem to find a web site anywhere that lists the various models in some sort of order with distinguishing features.
This one has five groove rifling (I assume 1/48 but have not as yet checked) which the P56 should not have.
It also has a hooked breech which I have not seen on an Enfield before, the breech plug and Tang are normally one piece.
Attached are various photos, anyone pick the lock maker? looks like turner.
Barrel maker is John Clive ,it also has W.S. but any info on the other markings would be appreciated along with confirmation of which model it is.
I have attached a repro sling from a P53,would this still be correct on this rifle?

Thanks,

GDU

http://i.imgur.com/5Goyn1kl.jpg (https://imgur.com/5Goyn1k)


http://i.imgur.com/ZEMMVdbl.jpg (https://imgur.com/ZEMMVdb)



http://i.imgur.com/05O4W4Jl.jpg (https://imgur.com/05O4W4J)​http://i.imgur.com/Smx3iqpl.jpg (https://imgur.com/Smx3iqp)

[geezmo]

Try these sites:


https://longrangerifles.wordpress.com/reference/militaryrifle/

https://www.researchpress.co.uk

https://www.tapatal.com/groups/britishmilitariforums

[geezmo]

I just tried going into the sites above, from this forum. The long range site opened but the other two didn't. ??? I'm too technically challenged to understand why.
Anyway, if you bing or google researchpress.co.uk and britsh militaria forum you can enter from there. Check them out.

[MarkTK36thIL]

Have you gotten your hands on a copy of, The British Soldier's Firearms; from Smoothbore to Smallbore 1850 through 1864, by Dr. C.H. Roads? He may be able to provide measurements that match up to yours.

Would it be possible to post full length pictures to compare?

[Rob FreemanWBR]

I?ve seen a similar Enfield, they were literally trophies awarded to winners of 19th Century muzzle loader matches in England.

Your Rifle MAY be worth a GREAT deal, as these trophy rifles were TRICKED OUT Enfields given to skilled shooters.

The sterling silver plate shows the name of the recipient, and if so moved, YOU can do some research on the individual, thus enhancing the value of the subject piece even more!

Congrats on a VERY nice rifle! Typically these Enfields were in .45 vice .577, if memory serves right.

If you want more insight, let me know and I can try to act as an intermediary with my friend who knows quite a bit about these wonderful rifles.

[Dan Mastin]

Check your pm's

[GDU]

Thanks for the replies.
Yes the plate is worthy of future research for sure.
I've attached full length pic as well.
One thing I have noticed, it's tighter for the first three or four inches at the muzzle than the rest of the bore.
I have made up some minies 1 thou or so under bore size, looking forward to shooting them.

http://i.imgur.com/lGi2IFXl.jpg (https://imgur.com/lGi2IFX)

[John Holland]

A very nice presentation rifle! One would wonder why it was given to their Sgt.? Perhaps one of the researchers in England would be able to assist you, such as David Minshall, who runs "Research Press", as mentioned above. It is one of the very good internet sites. It is also interesting to see that this has been a current International Match Rifle, too. To bad you didn't get any of the shooting information with it. I would suggest shooting it with the projectile for which it was intended, the paper patched Pritchett bullet with base plug. Just my thoughts on it!

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Prize rifles such as this rifle were given as prizes in the lower county or district level meets (matches) which held competitions with Long Enfields, short rifles, even carbines such as the Royal Artillery musketoons. Many of the regimental prize rifles were awarded to the winners of local matches because it was a way for men without the means to afford to buy a good rifle could acquire one above their station in life. This afforded the winners with a rifle they could then use in the annual meeting at Wimbledon. The Musketry School at Hythe was the leading advocate for the adoption of the faster 5-groove 1:48 spiral rifling, and many Volunteer rifles like the one you have carried that rifling versus the regulation pattern per say for the Pattern 1856. It was not uncommon for some prize winners to win more than one rifle over their career, like one shooter who attended Hythe in 1862 won three Whitworth prize rifles in the Wimbledon matches in 1862, 1863 and 1864. The last prize rifle was one of the short Whitworth rifles used in the Queen's match in 1864 and was marked "2nd Quality". The young winner much protested his prize because it was not of the "1st quality" of his previous two prize rifles.

You might find mention of that particular match in the London Illustrated Times which carried the news of the Volunteer Rifle movement in virtually every issue.

[GDU]

Interesting info, thanks.
Is this a prize rifle however?
There's no mention on the plaque as to having won anything, rather given to a sergeant from his men.
However I'm not familiar with how these things worked back then, perhaps this was normal.

It was indeed a recent (relatively) international MLIAC rifle, now deceased estate so unfortunately no load data.
I do have the shooters name, I wonder if its possible to find out if he won anything with it.

It may well be worth researching Sargent Deaves, not sure where to start on that one.

[geezmo]

Here's a place to start: http://shropshireregimentalmuseum.co.uk/regimental-history/volunteers-territorial-and-militia/the-shropshire-rifle-volunteers-outline-history/

[Smosin]

It looks to me to be a commercially made "Volunteer" pattern .577 short rifle, possibly a copy of the P60 Army rifle with the 1:48 rifling.
I recommend posting these photos on the British Militaria Forum, as you'd probably get some very precise and complete answers regarding this rifle.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/british-flint-and-percussion-arms-f4/

[dbm]

...a two bander made by F T Baker London.

I am not sure however where this rifle fits in the scheme of things, I'm picking it's a model 56 in volunteer pattern (33 inch barrel)?
I cannot seem to find a web site anywhere that lists the various models in some sort of order with distinguishing features.
This one has five groove rifling (I assume 1/48 but have not as yet checked) which the P56 should not have.
It also has a hooked breech which I have not seen on an Enfield before, the breech plug and Tang are normally one piece.



This is a presentation rifle, not as some have stated a prize rifle (ie. won at competition). It was presented by members of the fourth squad of the First Shropshire Rifle Volunteers to Sergeant Deaves as a mark of esteem and respect. Funds to cover its purchase were raised by donations. It was based on the naval rifle, but with the refinements including patent breech and checkering it is not a Pattern Enfield. The maker, F.T. Baker was armourer to the First Surrey Rifles. When presented it also had a sword-bayonet.

Volunteer rifles had to accept Government ammunition and musket caps. The Short Rifles appealed, being used by the Rifle Brigade. The so called 'Volunteer rifles' were short lived... from the early 1860s the Volunteers were re-armed with Government (P.53) Enfields. Officers still had the option of selecting their own arms.

David

[GDU]

Thanks all,

David I have sent you an email.

Cheers,

GDU.

[dbm]

The presentation rifle discussed in this thread is featured in the new edition of my free to download web site magazine.

Research Press Journal, Issue 8, Winter 2019/20. Free download pdf magazine (40 pages)



Priming: News, Events, People & Places (Bisley / Forthcoming Events / Thomas Wilson / Book News
A Volunteer Enfield Rifle
The Training of a Volunteer
The Remington Rolling Block
British Official Mid 19th Century Musketry Manuals
Demise of the Black Powder Target Rifle
The St. George's Challenge Vase


Link to Download (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/category/5-journal) - external site. Browse the link, there are back issues available.

Thanks for your interest.

David

[Jack C., 69th NY]

While researching a relative in the Irish Constabulary in the 1850's and 1860's I took a little detour and entered Sergeant James Deaves into a United Kingdom newspaper database. The Shrewsbury Chronicle from October 28, 1860 had a detailed, front page story about Sergeant Deaves, his rifle and the dinner when the rifle was presented. It is an interesting read. I will attempt to display the first 3 paragraphs of the story. The entire story is too large to display on the board. I can email to interested individuals.

[dbm]

.... Sergeant James Deaves into a United Kingdom newspaper database. The Shrewsbury Chronicle from October 28, 1860 had a detailed, front page story about Sergeant Deaves, his rifle and the dinner when the rifle was presented. It is an interesting read.
Yes that's one of the papers I referred to when writing my article in the above Journal.

David

[GDU]

Much appreciated David,
amazing what is still available after all these years.
Jack, if I PM my email address would you mind sending me a copy of that paper?
Thanks,
Greg.

[Jack C., 69th NY]

Much appreciated David,
amazing what is still available after all these years.
Jack, if I PM my email address would you mind sending me a copy of that paper?
Thanks,
Greg.


Greg, email has been sent.