Plastic Smith tubes with brass rivet

[Bob Lintner]

Who sells the black plastic Smith cartridge tubes with the hollow brass rivet in them.? Thanks.
Bob

[bobanderson]

Who sells the black plastic Smith cartridge tubes with the hollow brass rivet in them.? Thanks.
Bob

I bought 3/32" aluminum rivets from Graingers.

[Bob Lintner]

Thanks for the info! Are these pop rivets that need to be drilled out after installation?
Bob

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

I have a vertical dispersion issue with a mint, perfect bore and unaltered chamber Second Model Smith.
I thought the vertical issue with iron sights was my eyes.

Scoped it to be sure. Scope is rock solid. No holes drilled! Used shotgun barrel clamp rings with hard rubber shims. Leupold 4X28 EER PISTOL scope ahead of forend still gives full field of view!
This can be put on Maynards, etc.

My best METAL case load of 33gr 3Fg SWISS and a widely used pure lead bullet, cast to +/- .5 grains, that engraves 1/16" produces benched, SCOPE sighted groups at 50 of 1" wide by 2.5" - 3" high.
These groups are the same as with irons.

So .... after a long and enlightening chat with Bob Anderson, who has a gift for making things work well:

Just ordered the black plastic Smith cases, part # CC12, from Phil (and Mary Ann) at S and S to see if bullet tension or too much engraving are factors.... because .... some of my carefully seated and test chambered bullets displayed VARYING amounts of rifling contact. I think too much seating tension might also cock the bullet slightly. Hmmm...

Bob said case mouth tension VARIATIONS will be less with the plastic ones.

Phil said that the plastic ones should not swell unless shot in oversized chambers and that they will be ok without the rivet for 3-5 shots.

Use 3F GOEX/Old Eyensford (sp?) powder because Swiss is too hot and creates more velocity than needed.

Grainger rivet will extend case life to upwards of 20+ firings. This was an eye-opener for me!

Per Bob Anderson and Bruce Clark, who I believe pioneered the rivet concept, it is:
Grainger part - FABORY 3/32 x 1/4 blind rivet part number 32MJ64.

Avoid pure lead and harden to approx 30 lead to 1 tin alloy.
Bob said every breech loading bp gun he's tested did better with harder than pure lead.
Size to .001" to .002" over GROOVE diameter.
Bullet should just touch, not engrave, rifling. Again, most enlightening.

Sorry to be perhaps too detailed in this setting, but PM's asked for more info.
I didn't want to keep Bob's selfless sharing and Bruce's years of work to myself.
Edited to add what others requested.

VR and thanks to all,
Kevin Tinny

[Bob Lintner]

Kevin, Bob and Bruce,
Thanks very much!
Bob

[Hal]

Kevin/Bob,

How are you removing the part of the mandrel that is left inside? Do they push/drive out easily with a pin punch or do they have to be drilled?

[Bob Lintner]

Hal,
I'm guessing a pin punch.
Bob

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

I defer to Bob Anderson, but others indicated last evening that some drilled and some pin punched.
I will try punch first. Am ordering rivets today. Should arrive coincident with cases.
Will post vertical testing results. Probably next week.

I cleared excess PM's. Tx for heads-up.

VR/Kevin Tinny

[Hal]

Thanks Guys.

[bobanderson]

Hello:

I have a vertical dispersion issue with a mint, perfect bore and unaltered chamber Second Model Smith.
I thought the vertical issue with iron sights was my eyes.

Scoped it to be sure. Scope is rock solid. No holes drilled! Used shotgun barrel clamp rings with hard rubber shims. Leupold 4X28 EER PISTOL scope ahead of forend still gives full field of view!
This can be put on Maynards, etc.

My best METAL case load of 33gr 3Fg SWISS and a widely used pure lead bullet, cast to +/- .5 grains, that engraves 1/16" produces benched, SCOPE sighted groups at 50 of 1" wide by 2.5" - 3" high.
These groups are the same as with irons.

So .... after a long and enlightening chat with Bob Anderson, who has a gift for making things work well:

Just ordered the black plastic Smith cases, part # CC12, from Phil (and Mary Ann) at S and S to see if bullet tension or too much engraving are factors.... because .... some of my carefully seated and test chambered bullets displayed VARYING amounts of rifling contact. I think too much seating tension might also cock the bullet slightly. Hmmm...

Bob said case mouth tension VARIATIONS will be less with the plastic ones.

Phil said that the plastic ones should not swell unless shot in oversized chambers and that they will be ok without the rivet for 3-5 shots.

Use 3F GOEX/Old Eyensford (sp?) powder because Swiss is too hot and creates more velocity than needed.

Grainger rivet will extend case life to upwards of 20+ firings. This was an eye-opener for me!

Per Bob Anderson and Bruce Clark, who I believe pioneered the rivet concept, it is:
Grainger part - FABORY 3/32 x 1/4 blind rivet part number 32MJ64.

Avoid pure lead and harden to approx 30 lead to 1 tin alloy.
Bob said every breech loading bp gun he's tested did better with harder than pure lead.
Size to .001" to .002" over GROOVE diameter.
Bullet should just touch, not engrave, rifling. Again, most enlightening.

Sorry to be perhaps too detailed in this setting, but PM's asked for more info.
I didn't want to keep Bob's selfless sharing and Bruce's years of work to myself.
Edited to add what others requested.

VR and thanks to all,
Kevin Tinny

Here's the link for the aluminum rivets from Graingers -

https://www.grainger.com/product/FABORY-Blind-Rivet-32MJ64. They cost about $8 for a bag of 500.

The "nails" or whatever they are called will push right out of the body of the rivet.

As far as pressing them into the cases, I used an appropriately sized drill bit and drilled the tubes. Once you do that, they press in easily enough. In use, the flanged head of the rivet will eventually press flush with the back of the case, but that doesn't seem to make any difference.

[Bob Lintner]

Bob & Kevin,
Is the pop rivet SET with a tool or just pushed into the hole in the plastic tube and the "nail" removed. Thanks
Bob L

[bobanderson]

Bob & Kevin,
Is the pop rivet SET with a tool or just pushed into the hole in the plastic tube and the "nail" removed. Thanks
Bob L

In my experience, the vent hole on new Smith tubes is too tight to thumb seat the rivets. Having access to a Number/Letter and Fractional drill index allowed me to pick out a correct bit and drill each tube so I could easily start them with thumb pressure and then seat them by pressing them down against the surface of the bench. The nails are usually a slip fit and so were easily removed before seating.
Like I said in an earlier post, the more you shoot the tube, the flanged head of the rivet will be driven into the base of the tube so that they appear to be set flush. Done in this way, they will last almost forever. Life of the tubes will then only be limited by the case mouths burning out. The mouths can easily be resized if you wish by making a neck reforming tool (a friend made them for a while) where you heat the mouth with a flame (he used a lighter) and then pressed the tube into the die. I avoided this step because at $30 per hundred it wasn't worth the bother.

[Hal]

Bob are you saying you removed the nail/mandrel before even installing the rivet and therefore did not use a pop rivet tool to cinch the rivet in the case? It is only a friction fit?

[bobanderson]

Bob are you saying you removed the nail/mandrel before even installing the rivet and therefore did not use a pop rivet tool to cinch the rivet in the case? It is only a friction fit?

Sure. With the rivet head seated into the case from the OUTSIDE, there's no place it can go. Using the rivet tool is gilding the lilly and would make getting those nails out a PITA.

[Bob Lintner]

Bob,
Thank you very much. I did one by hand using only a small awl to slightly enlarge the hole and pushed the nail out. I thought it would be OK but wasn't sure. You have cleared it up. Thank you! I sure do appreciate it!
Bob

[Hal]

Yes, thanks for the clarification.

[CAGerringer]

You guys do realize that John at Northeast Traders carries brass bushing inserts for Smith tubes that have no nail/mandrel, fit the holes in the Smith tubes, and can be inserted without drilling or special prep.
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

https://dqzrr9k4bjpzk.cloudfront.net/images/9344108/881495453.jpg

[Bob Lintner]

I didn't know that! Thanks for the info.

[CAGerringer]

You're welcome, Bob. I think they're only about $5 per 100...something like that.
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[marv762]

yore supply sells a rubber tube with the brass inserts in them. not really expensive and they come right out without needing pliers if you over use them. my brother has orange and the ones i just got are red. and you dont need to trim up the front edge.

[Maillemaker]

Here is the link to the Northeast Trading Company rivets:

https://www.northeasttradeco.com/online-store/Brass-Bushings-for-Smith-Tubes-p77824544

Steve

[Maillemaker]

When you push the rivet bodies into the case hole, does a lot protrude into the cartridge cavity? Is it necessary to trim them in any way? Or do you just let it stick through freely into the cartridge?

Thanks,
Steve

[P.Altland]

When you push the rivet bodies into the case hole, does a lot protrude into the cartridge cavity? Is it necessary to trim them in any way? Or do you just let it stick through freely into the cartridge?

Thanks,
Steve

You peen the inside of the rivet flat to hold it in the flash hole.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

More than one approach, perhaps.

I have not peened and none have ever backed out in 25 shots from the same case and rivet in a test.
All rivets performed fine in team matches with the same black plastic cases from S&S and accuracy was fine.
The cases are quite easy to use and fired cases have not stuck in my original Smith chamber.
Lube on the shoulder of a LOADED, CHAMBERED case can pull bullets out of the case if trying to clear on the line. If line called, I just get Safety Officer ok to shoot into bank.

One thing:
I place a minute amount of bullet lube in the outside face of the rivet to keep small amounts of powder from dribbling onto my simple arbor press base when seating bullets. I USED to leave the lube plug in the rivet until hang/miss fires last Fall. I now use a pick to clear the rivet hole just before placing rounds in my ctg box. No issues since then. Thanks, Glenn for that tip.

Very respectfully,
Kevin Tinny

[Maillemaker]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the info.

Why do you use a press to seat the bullets? Can you not just use your fingers to stuff them in?

Steve

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, Steve:

Sorry, I should have included that the loaded overall length ("OAL") mattered during my scope sighted bench accuracy testing.

With internally shoulderless plastic cases, it was easiest to achieve that and prevent bullet tilt (slightly chamfered mouth ID's) with light arbor pressure so the handle reached the same arc position.
I do finger start the bullets and watch for straight line seating.
The square press tip contact with the bullet's flat tip helps, too.

Used a vernier caliper to measure. Just about any lube has been fine. SPG, MDM, N-LUBE, etc.

Please test OAL and the presence or not of bullet contact with the rear of the rifling for yourself.
Original Smiths and Maynards, per John Bly, had a dlight leade "leade" into the rifling so the bullet either sits off of or contacts the leade depending on OAL.

27APR20 UPDATE:
John Bly sent me a photo of a blown chamber original Maynard 50 cal and the slight leade is visible. I recall handling that blown barrel in Bruce Cobb's booth, but didn't notice the leade. I just looked at my original Smith 10574 and it also has a slight leade. So, originals DID have leades. Thanks John and Bruce. Kevin

I know some simply finger seat so the bullet base sits ON the shoulder in METALLIC cases, but there is no such shoulder, only a slight taper that amounts to a constriction, in the plastics.

I am aware that some seat the bullet short of contact and some prefer contact.

As Bly shared with me, most Civil War era carbines, including Smiths and Maynards are individually different in terms of what works for best accuracy. Some do best with pure lead and others with alloy bullets.

My Smith tests favor the Bly shortened Lyman 515141, with DISTINCT driving band in 30 lead to 1 tin.alloy, NO lube on base, and seated NOT to contact the shoulder at the end of the chamber.
Caution, Lyman "cherries" VARY in shape and some lack and some have a driving band for the SAME bullet number!

I found that if the OAL creates bullet contact, extra closing force is needed to COMPLETE action closing.
This can lead to erratic closing during our events and the need to reclose at times.
A little clearance is peace of mind if accuracy ok. And the action is stressed less.
As a Brit shotgun guru told me: Do you slam you car door closed? H'mmm.

Dreaming of the next Nationals. I appreciate our Shoots and our leadership MORE.
Everything is a test ...
"Cool heads will prevail." Pat Brady, CMOH.

Very respectfully,
Kevin Tinny

Edited for typo's.

[Maillemaker]

Interesting. I was planning on leaving the bullets proud so they would be pushed into the rifling when the action is closed. I have tried this using the Yore tubes and it does not seem to require any great force to push the bullets into the tubes, either by hand or when closing the action.

Steve

[Kevin Tinny]

Yes, Steve, on seating into the rifling with plastics:

Yipes on range time to resolve the variables.

Short version: Try different things. I found many things that did and did NOT matter.

The closing resistance was greater with the internal shoulder in the METALLICS when an ALLOY bullet was used that did project against the square chamber end and slightly into the rifling.

John Bly cannot see a benefit from a slight "leade", but imparts them in his Maynards for peace of mind.
Larry Romano uses a leade in all of his breech loader chambers and says it helps.
It requires a special piloted, not "chucking" reamer, TO impart the leade uniformly.
Shiloh Sharps does, also. Why would THEY impart something that doesn't help.
The chambers of Bobby's that I have seen or asked about do not appear to have leades.

One insidious thing:
The bore must be well-centered IN the blank to prevent chambering problems AND the square shoulder end of the chamber must BE square WITH the bore. If there is runout in the bore at the chamber end of the blank, chambering can impart an unsquare shoulder that creates an accuracy nightmare. Ask John Bly.

I chamfer the mouths with a swivel tip deburring tool. Quick and uniform.

My ORIGINAL, with a slight leade, shoots exceptionally.
My tests with varied bullet DIAMETER vs. groove diameter, alloy, bullet lube, powder granulation, charge weight and bullet contact left me with .0015" over groove diameter, 30:1 pure lead:tin, SPG, 3F SWISS, the wad and no contact. No contact still has me bothered, but accurscy is sooo consistently good. Yes, most don't report using 3F Swiss.

I was surprised that with the plastic S&S cases, seating a bit short of chamber contact did NOT reduce accuracy.
By the way, even with no bullet "contact/engraving", the lube ring on the face of my chambered rounds creates enough STICTION that if I try to pull out a loaded cartridge, the non-engraving bullet usually stays in the chamber and powder may foul it.

I do not know if YORE plastic Smith carbine tubes are different from the ones otherwise widely attributed to Jackie V. Do the YORE's have any internal shoulder?

The black S&S ones have an internal profile that seems to create the same volume as metallics with a shoulder.
This was a pleasant surprise so I do not use filler. I do use a .125" .515" Circle Fly wad under the bullet.
I cannot see that the wad helps accuracy for me, but it seems to act as a filler and make uniform seating depth simpler. Others prefer filler and no wad. So it goes.

Yes, it shoots! Now I have to find a shooter. Have to love it. The PEOPLE are WHY.
And sorry for being wordy.
At my age, might not get a second opportunity to share all the stuff others here have. Thanks.

Edited for cell phone, watery eyes typo's and Bly's reference to Bruce Cobb's blown original 50 Maynard barrel showing a slight leade. Kevin

VR/ Kevin

[Maillemaker]

Hi Kevin,

Great stuff, thanks. I have not yet shot this Smith. Can't wait to get to the range.


I chamfer the mouths with a swivel tip deburring tool. Quick and uniform.

I assume you are talking about metallic cases.

I have the Yore tubes, and just ordered the usual black Smith tubes and rivets to make them have grommets in their touch holes.

The Yore tube has no shoulder for the bullet to rest against. It's just a straight-in bore. You push the bullet in with your fingers. Nothing stops it (other than the powder). Here is a picture of them:

http://www.yoresupply.com/images/Smith_Tubes_Liner3_Gen3.jpg

I made up some test charges from in 25, 27, 29, 31, and 33 grains 3F Goex. For the reduced loads I put a cardboard wad (punched from cereal boxes) on top of the powder to keep the powder at the back of the case. There is a small air gap between the wad and the bullet for 25, 27, and 29 grains. I assume this will not be a problem. I could put in filler but I'd rather not. Especially since I think 30 grains is the "usual" load anyway and won't need filler.

I made up alloy using 1:20 tin:lead alloy. With the Lee Hardness Tester it scoped out with a hardness of BHN 8.

https://i.imgur.com/PZdILD3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Dycjcsx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qQLgZlI.jpg


I've got some "Henry" ammunition that was given to me of unknown alloy. It is coming up with a BHN of about 6.7.

But, 1:20 alloy should have have a hardness of 10. 1:30 should have a hardness of 8. I am 100% certain of my 1:20 alloy composition as I made it myself. So if my 8 should be 10, then perhaps my "Henry" 6.7 should be 8.7, which would put it at about 1:30 alloy.

I haven't used the Henry alloy for anything.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

https://i.imgur.com/LD0Z9Wr.png
http://www.pnjresources.com/Hardness%20of%20Lead%20Alloys.htm

[Maillemaker]

I pulled out my borescope and looked in the bore of my new Pietta Smith. Bore looks a little dirty from me slugging the bore and I don't have a 50 cal cleaning rod yet to clean up the mess. :)

Here is the Eras Gone Smith Carbine bullet, inserted proud in a Yore tube, and then chambered.

https://i.imgur.com/mJUhJfN.jpg

The Eras Gone Smith bulllet is a very accurate copy of Civil-War era Smith bullets.

The ogive of the bullet does not actually touch the bore. The shoulder on the bullet touches the bore.
https://i.imgur.com/AokcKg3.jpg

Here is the bore when I have pulled the cartridge out a hair:
https://i.imgur.com/IenMySP.jpg

It's interesting that the bullet bottoms out on it's shoulder rather than the ogive. This gives a nice plane of contact so that the bullet will sit straight in the bore. If it sat on the ogive the bullet could pivot around on the conical contact surface.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

For fun, I did the same thing with my Pedersoli P1859 Sharps, using the Eras Gone Richmond Sharps bullet. This one does bottom out on the bullet's ogive. The gun was recently cleaned and the gas check plate greased and a bit got on the nose of the bullet. :)

https://i.imgur.com/DUVonmL.jpg

This is the chamber end of the Sharps. There is a chamfer on the bore of the Sharps.

https://i.imgur.com/GFwPA3G.jpg

Steve

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

The swivel deburring gadget IS used on my plastic cases because they are tight on my OD bullet.
Trying to work the bullets into an unchamfered mouth often makes them tilted and the press doesn't always cure that.

The interior profile of you cases looks much like the black ones from S&S.

I never leave airspace UNDER A WAD. I do whatever to eliminate airspace because it will change where the powder lies and can cause greater velocity variations, which are NOT significant for most of us.

A wad on TOP of the powder WITH an airspace between the wad and bullet can cause the wad to slam into the bullet and raise pressures. I doubt that is enough to be a safety issue with our light/moderate loads, but why risk it. Safety first! Wad must be against the bullet base.

I like those photo's.

Make sure you push a bullet through the bore to feel for loose spots or progressive looseness from breech to muzzle. There MUST be none if accuracy is desired.

Keep it coming. I'm hoping for a "humanitarian release". Sorry. Haha.
Oops, more typo's. Kinda tough in here at Rykers!

VR/ Kevin Tinny

[Maillemaker]

A wad on TOP of the powder WITH an airspace between the wad and bullet can cause the wad to slam into the bullet and raise pressures. I doubt that is enough to be a safety issue with our light/moderate loads, but why risk it. Safety first! Wad must be against the bullet base.

So should I put filler in between my wad and my bullet then?

This is what my 25 grain charge looks like:

https://i.imgur.com/SzX51SVl.jpg

Full size picture here: https://imgur.com/a/OYqlWDv

I like those photo's.


Make sure you push a bullet through the bore to feel for loose spots or progressive looseness from breech to muzzle. There MUST be none if accuracy is desired.

I already did this. I am sad to say that it did seem to me that the push got noticeably easier about mid-way down the barrel. I'm not sure if that is because the bullet was so over-sized to start with (about .522 in a .512 bore), or what.

This is a practically new Pietta Smith - 2019 manufacture. I thought all those backwards barrels were a thing of the past? When my cleaning rod and sizing die gets here I'm going to clean and oil the bore, and then cast up some pure lead bullets and size them to .515 and re-slug the bore and feel how it goes.

Steve

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, Steve:

Those tubes look fascinating. Wow. Transparent.
As Commisioner Gordon said: I got's to get me one of those.
Please try multiple reloadings of a single case and let us know durability.

Subject to being advised otherwise here about SAFETY, which I welcome:
I would put the filler directly on top of the powder and then the wad on the filler so the wad is against the base of the bullet. If the possibility of the filler mixing with powder is a concern, separate with a wax paper barrier.
That would be overdoing it for me.

I tested full volume loads with lube (from dipping) on the base and put a wax paper barrier on the powder so the lube did not weaken the powder. This setup made no accuracy difference and placing the wax paper flat on the powder took careful technique. We aren't into extremes, here. Keep it as simple as you can.

If you get near 32gr 3F, there should be little need for filler and a .125" wad. Creme of wheat and cornmeal are frequently used as filler. Users have shared that unless these are stored in a freezer, bugs will develope. Yum.

If your bore is unsatisfactory, don't waste effort. You won't learn much useful from testing a loose bore other than it doesn't shoot. Get with Bobby Hoyt for a liner. If the cases seem durable, send a couple along so he knows length, etc for optimal fit.

Fun putting the shoot into our guns.

I cannot attach photo's. If you know how to attach Droid cell phone photo's to our Forum posts, please start a separate Thread. I've asked here twice with no responses. Thanks.

Kevin Tinny

[bobanderson]

I am sad to say that it did seem to me that the push got noticeably easier about mid-way down the barrel. I'm not sure if that is because the bullet was so over-sized to start with (about .522 in a .512 bore), or what.

Steve

Mr. Veral Smith of LBT (Lead Bullet Technology, InC.) some years ago sold fire lapping kits and push through slugs to smooth out rifle bores. He told me that when pushing a slug through a bore, you wanted the force required to be constant or gradually lessening. This meant the bore was smooth and the bullet wasn't encountering high and low spots in the bore. If you feel the slug start and stop, it indicates high spots that can degrade accuracy. An ideal bore would be ever so slightly tapered, almost "choked" from breech to muzzle.
I used his fire lapping technique to smooth out a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps silhouette rifle. After 80 firelapping shots, that bore was a smooth as a baby's bottom. I made Master Class in BPCR with that gun.

Your "noticeably easier" might be an indicator of a good smooth bore.

[Maillemaker]

Your "noticeably easier" might be an indicator of a good smooth bore.

I hope so. Like I said, my 1:20 bullets are coming out at .522 in diameter, and after slugging the max diameter I can pick up is about .511. So that's quite a swage-down. And since the Smith has no lead-in chamfer, naturally it was hard to get it started. It may well be that as it got going it got easier, but I felt like it was easier in the middle than at the muzzle.

Anyway my cleaning rod and sizing die should be in by the weekend or early next week, and I'm going to cast up some pure lead bullets this weekend for slugging. I'll try and "feel" the barrel more carefully this time.

Weather looks nice this weekend so if my stuff comes in tomorrow I might go out to the range on the mountain that only has 20 or so benches and they are well spaced apart. Not many people go all the way up to the mountain to shoot anyway.

Steve

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

For starters when slugging a bore, try an approx. ONE caliber long, pure lead piece so any short, loose spots won't be bridged. Longer slugs can miss spots.

Do this from both ends to feel overall changes.

Kevin

[bobanderson]

Do this from both ends to feel overall changes.

Kevin

Don't agree with comparing both ends. I was taught that a proper bore chokes down from breech to muzzle. If so, then pushing from the muzzle should get easier after the first inch or so to the point that there is no resistance to be felt.

Also, I believe a proper crown should be cherished, protected and not messed with by introducing strange items that may cause wear and wiggles.

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, Bob:

Agree on crown. Thanks for the IMPORTANT reminder.
Crown Issues can be difficult to see and diagnose.
Simply letting a brass rod jag REAR SHOULDER get pulled back against the crown can damage it over time.

As Tom Nixon shared;
If an otherwise good musket barrel goes goofy and bedding is ok, recrown!

Pushing both ways:
Yes; almost immediate loss of resistance in choke if mostly at the muzzle.

Learned both directions method with one-caliber long slug from Karl Kenyon, the smallbore barrel wizard.
He would often swap ends on a pesky, untapered barrel and it would shoot. Swapping ends is unlikely for us.
When Olympians like Lones Wigger, gave up on ammo changing with otherwise superb barrels, they went to him. Most of the time he FOUND and REMOVED choke, which he abhored.

Buttoned barrels, which are not common in our sport, can develope reverse choke via an OD profile taper that reduces stresses as the OD drops toward muzzle. Stress relieving is critical.
The only buttoned barrels I know of that are in some of our skirmish barrels are 4140 alloy from Douglas.
They shoot well.

I hope we continue to hear how Steve's Pietta performs.
If a bore uniformity issue pops, that can be corrected and all the other aspects will be covered.

VR/Kevin Tinny

[CAGerringer]

Just out of curiosity...how much does Bobby charge to reline a Pietta Smith? I too, have an area of less resistance half way down the barrel, when running a slug down it. I'm very interested how this story plays out!
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[Maillemaker]

Well, I got my cleaning rod from S&S today, I ordered a .50 caliber, think I got a .52, as the jag measures .51 in diameter and neither the jag nor the plastic bushing will fit in the barrel of my Smith. I've emailed them to see if they can just send me the jag and the bushing.

I also got 100 black tubes. I ordered the aluminum pop-rivets from Grainger. I also ordered the brass ones from Northeast Trading Company but they have not come in yet. The aluminum ones you can push out the rivet shank easily, and then I pushed the grommet into the end of the plastic tube. I started it with my fingers, and then put it in my bench vice and pressed it home.

https://i.imgur.com/OKVHnCNl.jpg

Full-sized picture here: https://imgur.com/a/QZSiiUY

The black plastic Smith cases are much more rigid than the Yore tubes, which are quite rubbery. I can see why you would chamfer the inside of the case mouth on these black tubes. It was much harder to press in a bullet by hand and to start it. I suspect when I size to .515 it will be easier. Still waiting on my sizing die to come in.

The black smith tube was harder to chamber in my Smith than the Yore tube also. The OD is bigger. Again when the bullet is sized down this may no longer be an issue.

Steve

[bobanderson]

Just out of curiosity...how much does Bobby charge to reline a Pietta Smith? I too, have an area of less resistance half way down the barrel, when running a slug down it. I'm very interested how this story plays out!
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

A reline should be a last ditch solution. I would fire lap the barrel to reduce tool marks, smooth out high spots and greatly improve accuracy.
For the uninitiated, firelapping involves shooting lead bullets coated with very fine abrasive such as valve grinding compound to polish the barrel. When you feel less and then more resistance pushing a slug down the bore, you are feeling high spots as little as 1/2 of a 10 thousandth (.00005). To make firelapping rounds, use hard lead bullets and roll them between two glass plates/ceramic tiles with lapping compound. This presses the compound into the bullet, making a "lap". Load a cartridge with a light charge of the fastest burning powder you have. With black, I'd say 10 to 15 grains of 4f. You want enough to get the bullet out of the muzzle. (With my 40-65 Sharps, I used 5 grains of Bullseye, but DON'T DO THAT IN A SMITH!!!!!)
Anyway, take about 5 shots, clean the bore, then another 5. After 20 shots, push a slug down the bore and feel the start and stop as the slug encounters high spots. (Lead Bullet Technologies suggested about 20-30 rounds, I used 80 in my Sharps.)

Lather, rinse and repeat.

This will also work to freshen up a dark or slightly pitted barrel.

NOTE OF CAUTION - I'm relating this based on my increasingly poorer memory and something I did about 25 years ago. Do your due diligence and see what instructions you can get online. After typing this long missive, I looked and LBT is still in business and still sells borelapping kits and push through slugs. http://lbtmolds.com/Products/tabid/5806/Default.aspx

Just the project to tackle during our forced hiatus.

Stay safe and wash your hands.

[CAGerringer]

Thanks, Bob.
I've contacted LBT to get some info and prices on their Lapping kits and supplies.
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks for remembering firelapping:

I can second your experience.
It does work and is a practical alternative to lining.
Do the least radical thing. Can line if won't help.

Regards.
Kevin

[Maillemaker]

So tonight I got all my North East Trading Company brass grommets into my black Smith tubes. I decided to go with the NETC grommets instead of the pop rivets for two reasons. First, they are "plug and play" - you don't have to pull the aluminum shaft out of each pop rivet. Second, the flash hole in the brass grommets is slightly larger than the hole in the aluminum ones. So I figured this would make ignition more reliable. Of course the trade-off is they leak powder a little more easily. But, I plan on storing these nose-down and using a block in my ammo pouch to keep them nose down, so that should minimize leakage during use. Some people put a little tape disk over the end of the cartridge and peel it off before use but I'm not going to bother unless it turns out to be a problem.

I notice that the black tubes are far more rigid than the red Yore tubes. I think this may help with accuracy. With the black tubes, the bullet is held very tightly and rigidly along the axis of the tube. With the Yore tubes, you can easily bend the bullet any which way and you have to pay attention to "set" the bullet straight in the tube. I don't know if this matters or not. I like that the Yore tubes are translucent so you can see the charge and bullet spacing.

I made up 25 charges with the Yore Tubes in 25, 27, 29, 31, and 33 grains 3F Goex, plus filler, where needed. I made up 25 charges with the black tubes in the same charges, but no filler. Even at 25 grains there wasn't much of a space. 33 grains is the absolute max I could put in with the Eras Gone Smith bullet.

I'm going to the range tomorrow to give them a go with the new Smith. Hope it shoots good!

[J. C. Hall]

Shot a Smith years ago. Used "Hair Tape" to cover the hole in the back of the tube. Something folks use when setting their hair, comes in a dispenser like scotch tape. It was pink. Anyway, don't have to peel it off, the fire from the percussion cap blows right through it. Never had a problem.

[Maillemaker]

Shot a Smith years ago. Used "Hair Tape" to cover the hole in the back of the tube. Something folks use when setting their hair, comes in a dispenser like scotch tape. It was pink. Anyway, don't have to peel it off, the fire from the percussion cap blows right through it. Never had a problem.

Thanks for the tip!

There are a lot of "hair tape" products that I found on Amazon, do any of these ring a bell?

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=hair+tape&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

When this virus thing goes away I'll have to cruise over the the beauty store and freak out the helpers with my questions again. :)

Thanks,
Steve

[J. C. Hall]

Well, I found that they don't make hair setting tape anymore, but the Nexcare tape https://www.amazon.com/Nexcare-Gentle-Paper-First-Dispenser/dp/B0000DH8OC/ref=sr_1_14?dchild=1&keywords=hair+tape&qid=158 looks like a good alternative. Seems the hairdressers are using it. It is a paper tape. Might be worth a try @ $3 a roll. I shoot a Maynard these days and store and carry my rounds bullet down, although the holes are smaller than those in Smith Tubes and I have noticed no powder loss when reloading them. Let me know how it works if you try it.

[Maillemaker]

Thanks, I ordered some!

Steve

[Hal]

Steve,

In another of your threads, I saw where you said you chose not to use filler. Like you, I load my Smith cartridges a little long and allow closing the action to make the final seating. I have found that by using a small amount of cream of wheat, that even the pressure of thumb seating the bullet, will compress the powder enough to keep it from wanting to fall out the flash hole.