Thoughts on shooting Pedersoli Sharps 54 cal rifle

[keweenaw]

So went to the range today with my new (to me) Pedersoli rifle with the Hahn modification. Made up paper cartridges per the Hahn recipe using his tubes.

Issues:

1. Misfires: Very many misfires where the cap would go off but not the cartridge. Changed nipple, cleaned channel, no change. Using older but new old stock RWS musket caps. Finally had to use a nipple pick to puncture the hair curler paper in the back of the cartridge MANY times and it would finally fire, but not always. Just puncturing with one hole had no effect. Sometimes would not fire with case punctured and powder dribbled in nipple. I do not recall if Charlie did anything to the flash channel in the breech block. Is that a known issue? Suggested remedies?

2. Accuracy. Using the Moose mold with the ringtail base, 54 cal. Accuracy was far from stellar. I dug one of the bullets out of the backstop and the bullet was nicely rifled on all three bands, getting deeper to the bottom band. No keyholes but accuracy NOT good. Any ideas on this? Does a SHarps benefit from glass bedding the forearm?

Any known issues with Pedersoli sharps barrels? I have some other Pedersoli guns, and they seem quite accurate, and quality seems great.

Help!

[Maillemaker]

I have a Pedersoli 1859 Sharps Carbine. Misfires are common with this gun because of the long and convoluted fire channel. Larry Flees will re-work the fire cone and the cleanout screw so that they fit together more closely, thus eliminating some of the nooks and crannies in the fire channel that can absorb some of the blast until they fill up with fouling. Before the work, my Sharps would misfire perhaps 2 in 10 shots, especially when clean. After the work, it misfires perhaps 1 in 20. In addition, Larry re-shapes the fire cone so that instead of requiring a special wrench to remove it, a socket will fit. However, as Larry recommends, I never disassemble the lock fire channel components when cleaning. I blast soapy water through it, and then compressed air, and that's it.

Off a bench, the gun does pretty good. I am using the Pedersoli Christmas Tree bullet 317-541. I don't seem to be able to shoot it off hand well. I have a hard time seeing the front sight blade in the notch of the rear site. I may need to widen the notch.

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-accessorio.asp/l_en/idpr_203/pre_0/accessories-professional-bullet-moulds-block-with-1-cavity--paper-cartridge-bullets.html

I shoot them as-cast, using 1:20 tin:lead.

When slugging, I get good engraving:

https://i.imgur.com/UVzrfVvl.jpg

When shot, I also get good engraving:

https://i.imgur.com/jKrnHBPl.jpg

I made a dipper out of a .45 ACP shell so that when I dip them in lube only the lube areas of the bullet are coated:

https://i.imgur.com/PWk57IPl.jpg

Here is an album of my load workup targets from 28 to 56 grains:

https://imgur.com/a/DmdrU2U

30 grains gave a good group. So did 40, 46, 50, and 54 grains.

I currently use 40 grains of 3F Goex. I make my own cartridges from 17 lb. vellum. I use a cardboard wad punched from cereal boxes to keep the powder at the end of the cartridge.

I intend to experiment soon with the new Eras Gone Richmond Sharps replica bullet. It is nice in that it is a double-cavity mold. It also produced a bullet similar in size and weight to the Frances bullet, which is supposed to be a very good bullet for the Sharps.

Steve

[gemmer]

So went to the range today with my new (to me) Pedersoli rifle with the Hahn modification. Made up paper cartridges per the Hahn recipe using his tubes.

Issues:

1. Misfires: Very many misfires where the cap would go off but not the cartridge. Changed nipple, cleaned channel, no change. Using older but new old stock RWS musket caps. Finally had to use a nipple pick to puncture the hair curler paper in the back of the cartridge MANY times and it would finally fire, but not always. Just puncturing with one hole had no effect. Sometimes would not fire with case punctured and powder dribbled in nipple. I do not recall if Charlie did anything to the flash channel in the breech block. Is that a known issue? Suggested remedies?

2. Accuracy. Using the Moose mold with the ringtail base, 54 cal. Accuracy was far from stellar. I dug one of the bullets out of the backstop and the bullet was nicely rifled on all three bands, getting deeper to the bottom band. No keyholes but accuracy NOT good. Any ideas on this? Does a SHarps benefit from glass bedding the forearm?

Any known issues with Pedersoli sharps barrels? I have some other Pedersoli guns, and they seem quite accurate, and quality seems great.

Help!

Charlie did my Pedersoli and I'm pretty sure he didn't do anything to the channel. The only misfires I've ever had was when I used a paper surgical tape to cap off the tubes which was thicker than what I normally used. I nixed using tape and went back to curler paper and have had no problems since. How far away from the mouth of the chamber is the end of your tube? Could they be too short? Mine almost touch the face of the breech block. If this was your first time shooting your rifle and it came to you second hand, I'm guessing it had a channel problem when you got it. I'd try pulling the nipple and clean out screw and soaking the block in Kroil for at least a day and see if any crud comes out. I could not be happier with my sporter's accuracy. I use a Lee xmas tree .544 and 60 gr of 2F Swiss and the 100 yard groups are very good. My tube length is 1.375".

[keweenaw]

I should mention that I am not in any way complaining about charlies work. Just trying to give info to you good folks to help me figure out the problems.

I will take a look at the breech block fire channel more closely. The tubes ae 1.38 and fit flush with the face of the breech using the Moose mold.

Sights are factory and not good for me. I wonder how Berdan's sharpshooters did so well??

[keweenaw]

I should also mention that I tried a nipple with a very small flash hole thinking the smaller diameter would provide higher flash velocity(??) and more reliable ignition. Did not work at all.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Is the sharps ignition channel filled with twists and turns? Might need a hotter cap. Just theorizing

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

I had a Garrett years ago and found I needed to drill the flash hole in the nipple and bit size or two larger. Worked great although it got a bit dirtier around the nipple.

[Southron Sr.]

I have been shooting a Pedersoli Sharps for over 20 years now. I did my own "O Ring" modification to the breech block.

I used to use the "hot" CCI musket caps until CCI took them out of production. Now I use RWS musket caps and have g NO PROBLEM with misfires.

This might be due to my cartridges. I make my cartridges using Ladies Hair Curling papers. I make them just long enough so when I close the breech block during the loading process, the entire end of the cartridge is cut off. Thus, the black powder in the entire end of the cartridge is exposed. True, I waste 2 or 3 grains of powder from each cartridge,but after the breech block is closed, I blow the excess grains of powder off the top of the block before putting the cap on the nipple.

I use the Pedersoli Sharps bullet and get superb accuracy.

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/3535/category/341/category_chain/578,342,341/product_name/MO0706+Sharps+Bullet+Mould+Block

[keweenaw]

I have a Pedersoli 1859 Sharps Carbine. Misfires are common with this gun because of the long and convoluted fire channel. Larry Flees will re-work the fire cone and the cleanout screw so that they fit together more closely, thus eliminating some of the nooks and crannies in the fire channel that can absorb some of the blast until they fill up with fouling. Before the work, my Sharps would misfire perhaps 2 in 10 shots, especially when clean. After the work, it misfires perhaps 1 in 20. In addition, Larry re-shapes the fire cone so that instead of requiring a special wrench to remove it, a socket will fit. However, as Larry recommends, I never disassemble the lock fire channel components when cleaning. I blast soapy water through it, and then compressed air, and that's it.

Off a bench, the gun does pretty good. I am using the Pedersoli Christmas Tree bullet 317-541. I don't seem to be able to shoot it off hand well. I have a hard time seeing the front sight blade in the notch of the rear site. I may need to widen the notch.

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-accessorio.asp/l_en/idpr_203/pre_0/accessories-professional-bullet-moulds-block-with-1-cavity--paper-cartridge-bullets.html

I shoot them as-cast, using 1:20 tin:lead.

When slugging, I get good engraving:

https://i.imgur.com/UVzrfVvl.jpg

When shot, I also get good engraving:

https://i.imgur.com/jKrnHBPl.jpg

I made a dipper out of a .45 ACP shell so that when I dip them in lube only the lube areas of the bullet are coated:

https://i.imgur.com/PWk57IPl.jpg

Here is an album of my load workup targets from 28 to 56 grains:

https://imgur.com/a/DmdrU2U

30 grains gave a good group. So did 40, 46, 50, and 54 grains.

I currently use 40 grains of 3F Goex. I make my own cartridges from 17 lb. vellum. I use a cardboard wad punched from cereal boxes to keep the powder at the end of the cartridge.

I intend to experiment soon with the new Eras Gone Richmond Sharps replica bullet. It is nice in that it is a double-cavity mold. It also produced a bullet similar in size and weight to the Frances bullet, which is supposed to be a very good bullet for the Sharps.

Steve

Could not get your load data link to open.

[Yakiman]

What nipple is on your gun? I have the 1859 as well as the Sporting rifle and initially had a lot of misfires. A note on a TOW page discussed the Italian nipples and how they weren't the right shape (looking from the side they're tapered, cone shaped with a large flash hole), I switched to the straight ones recommended and no more issues. I use Schutzen musket caps, Hahn tubes sealed with hair curler paper and I haven't had a misfire since I changed out the nipple.

[gemmer]

I should mention that I am not in any way complaining about charlies work. Just trying to give info to you good folks to help me figure out the problems.

I will take a look at the breech block fire channel more closely. The tubes ae 1.38 and fit flush with the face of the breech using the Moose mold.

Sights are factory and not good for me. I wonder how Berdan's sharpshooters did so well??

I wasn't happy with the factory sights either. I put a PC tang sight on mine.

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

I used to own the Pedersoli Sharps that was raffled off at Nationals some years ago. Only sold it because I could only Skirmish twice a year. Anyway, I have shot a 188 xxxxx with it at Nationals, so the gun shoots. I shoot the rapine bullet dipped in MCM lube, same as carbine, 50g of ffg Goex by weight, RWS caps. Any lighter or faster burning load may not group as the breech must be leaking right up until the bullet clears the crown. With this load, zero the gun at fifty with the ladder on the bottom detent and one click up should be on at 100.

As for misfires, yes I have had some since the flash channel diameter is too large. Yes, poke a hole in the rear and do NOT put the cartridge into the chamber than necessary. misfires will be reduced as the day goes on. The Flees mod of the flash channel is a good thing.

Just my experience, YRMV.

Greg

[keweenaw]

I was using the Moose 54 cal ringtail bullet. started with 40 grains of 2f Goex. Put wad on top of powder so powder stayed at rear of cartridge. Put some cream of wheat filler on top of wad so that the cartridge was tight right up to the base of the bullet.

Seems like most folks are mentioning the flash channel issue. Is there any practical remedy for this? Do other sharps manufacturers have this same problem?>

[keweenaw]

I was using the Moose 54 cal ringtail bullet. started with 40 grains of 2f Goex. Put wad on top of powder so powder stayed at rear of cartridge. Put some cream of wheat filler on top of wad so that the cartridge was tight right up to the base of the bullet.

Seems like most folks are mentioning the flash channel issue. Is there any practical remedy for this? Do other sharps manufacturers have this same problem?>

Is it possible to sleeve a portion of the flash channel (left to right of breechblock) so as to provide a narrower channel for the fire to pass through?

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

When we talk about the Flees breech block work, yes, the flash channel is sleeved.

As to wheather other mfrs have the same problem, I can only sprak for the Shiloh. As long as I poke a hole in the end of the cartridge, I have never had a misfire in the 14 years I have been competeing with my carbine.

You say you're loading40g of ffg Goex. what weight is your bullet please. The Rapine weighs 485g If your bullet is much heavier, you may want to bump the charge to 55g. As I said earlier, the breech MUST leak through the bullet exiting the muzzle. If not, accuracy will suffer. In fact the primary reason the infantry rifle I bought was for sale was accuracy. the owner was loading 38g of fffg Swiss. this will work in a carbine, but not in a rifle.

Greg

[keweenaw]

When we talk about the Flees breech block work, yes, the flash channel is sleeved.

As to wheather other mfrs have the same problem, I can only sprak for the Shiloh. As long as I poke a hole in the end of the cartridge, I have never had a misfire in the 14 years I have been competeing with my carbine.

You say you're loading40g of ffg Goex. what weight is your bullet please. The Rapine weighs 485g If your bullet is much heavier, you may want to bump the charge to 55g. As I said earlier, the breech MUST leak through the bullet exiting the muzzle. If not, accuracy will suffer. In fact the primary reason the infantry rifle I bought was for sale was accuracy. the owner was loading 38g of fffg Swiss. this will work in a carbine, but not in a rifle.

Greg

Thanks. I am using the Moose 544-480 which I presume is a 480 gr. bullet. The 40gr charge is in the middle of the range Charlie suggested. With that load there is some space left if you dont use the filler, but not much. Not sure what you mean by: the breech MUST leak through the bullet exiting the muzzle. The bullet I recovered from the backstop showed excellent rifling engraving on all rings, progressively deeper as you approach the base of the bullet. WRT to puncturing the base of the bullet, i had to puncture MANY time all over the base in order to have the gun fire. One hole was not enough. Thanks.

[bobanderson]

One hole was not enough.

Years ago I had a similar problem with a Garrett. A teammate suggested putting a shot out musket nipple in during a match. Worked so good, that's what I used from then on.

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

Sorry I forgot to address the nipple issue. Bob is correct, the standard musket nipple has a hole that is too small. I use the Stainless Sharps nipple that I buy at the fort.

As for leaking, we all know that the Sharps is supposed to have a sealed breech. NOT TRUE. Have a friend shoot the gun after dark while you warch from the side. you will see fire exiting the breech straight up. That's leakage and if it's not doing that all the time while the bullet is traveling down the bore, accuracy will suffer due to inconsistent velocity. Check it with a chrono if you wish.

My suggestion for you is change the nipple, poke a hole in the base of the cartridge, put the load into the breech only enough to clear the breech block, and go to 50g of ffg Goex. Come back and let us know the results.

Greg

[keweenaw]

Sorry I forgot to address the nipple issue. Bob is correct, the standard musket nipple has a hole that is too small. I use the Stainless Sharps nipple that I buy at the fort.

As for leaking, we all know that the Sharps is supposed to have a sealed breech. NOT TRUE. Have a friend shoot the gun after dark while you warch from the side. you will see fire exiting the breech straight up. That's leakage and if it's not doing that all the time while the bullet is traveling down the bore, accuracy will suffer due to inconsistent velocity. Check it with a chrono if you wish.

My suggestion for you is change the nipple, poke a hole in the base of the cartridge, put the load into the breech only enough to clear the breech block, and go to 50g of ffg Goex. Come back and let us know the results.

Greg

Went out to shoot again this AM (before reading your post). Updated charge to 45 gr (by volume) 2F Goex. Mounted tang sight with Hadley style eyecup. Used new box of caps. Cleaned fire channel the best I could. Same Moose mold bullet. Used nipple with medium size hole. Cleaned bore with wet patch between shots. Powder is right at back of the cartridge. Punctured the back of the cartridge with a dozen holes with nipple pick. Looked like a sieve. Still had some misfires. Accuracy is terrible. 8-9 inch groups at best. Shooting from a very solid rest at 50 yards. Bullets dug out of backstop show excellent riflling marks. Target showed no evidence of keyholing. cartridge base is right at back of the breech. Geez, I have a flintlock that will out shoot this all day long. When it does fire, it usually does not indicate any hangfires (though it sometimes happens.). There appears to be no issues with the barrel. Bore is mint, rifling sharp all the way to muzzle. Crown fine. Crazy question; given this has three barrel bands like a RM, would forearm pressure affect accuracy? No apparent binding, but.....??

[gemmer]

Went out to shoot again this AM (before reading your post). Updated charge to 45 gr (by volume) 2F Goex. Mounted tang sight with Hadley style eyecup. Used new box of caps. Cleaned fire channel the best I could. Same Moose mold bullet. Used nipple with medium size hole. Cleaned bore with wet patch between shots. Powder is right at back of the cartridge. Punctured the back of the cartridge with a dozen holes with nipple pick. Looked like a sieve. Still had some misfires. Accuracy is terrible. 8-9 inch groups at best. Shooting from a very solid rest at 50 yards. Bullets dug out of backstop show excellent riflling marks. Target showed no evidence of keyholing. cartridge base is right at back of the breech. Geez, I have a flintlock that will out shoot this all day long. When it does fire, it usually does not indicate any hangfires (though it sometimes happens.). There appears to be no issues with the barrel. Bore is mint, rifling sharp all the way to muzzle. Crown fine. Crazy question; given this has three barrel bands like a RM, would forearm pressure affect accuracy? No apparent binding, but.....??

You could try shooting it without the forearm. Since you have two issues, I would deal with the ignition problem first, since misfires, rather the anticipation of them, and hang fires are going to hurt accuracy. Have you spoken to Charlie about it? He might suggest that you send him the block or perhaps the entire rifle. Seems to me that if you're still getting misfires after what you've done to the end of the tube, then you certainly have a significant blockage.

[keweenaw]

You could try shooting it without the forearm. Since you have two issues, I would deal with the ignition problem first, since misfires, rather the anticipation of them, and hang fires are going to hurt accuracy. Have you spoken to Charlie about it? He might suggest that you send him the block or perhaps the entire rifle. Seems to me that if you're still getting misfires after what you've done to the end of the tube, then you certainly have a significant blockage.

Funny thing is, when I snap a cap pointing at the ground, I get noticeable movement of leaves, grass, etc.

[gemmer]

Funny thing is, when I snap a cap pointing at the ground, I get noticeable movement of leaves, grass, etc.

When you get a misfire, do you notice any black marks from the cap on the tube cap?

[keweenaw]

When you get a misfire, do you notice any black marks from the cap on the tube cap?

Yes, the few times I dropped the breech to look.

[Yakiman]

Have you tried shooting with loose powder?

[keweenaw]

No, I have not tried that.

[John Holland]

All the movement of the grass means when you snap a cap is that the vent is clear. The cap going off is pushing air out the barrel, but the flame isn't reaching the chamber.

[Yakiman]

No, I have not tried that.

Have you been able to determine whether you have a fire channel problem, a percussion cap problem, or a paper cartridge issue? Accuracy problems aside, if it goes off every time with loose powder then you can concentrate on your cartridge. What length Hahn tube are you using, what are you sealing it with?

[keweenaw]

Have you been able to determine whether you have a fire channel problem, a percussion cap problem, or a paper cartridge issue? Accuracy problems aside, if it goes off every time with loose powder then you can concentrate on your cartridge. What length Hahn tube are you using, what are you sealing it with?

Well, when snapping a cap at the ground it shows good grass/leaf movement. While that does not represent fire, it does show a clear path for pressure all the way out. I am using new old stock RWS caps, which (from the olden days) were the hottest. I am looking at trying a number of nipple styles. Perhaps a straight sided one with the top of nipple counter sunk to allow max flash through the nipple and minimize any flash around the outside of the nipple (?). Using Hahn tube of 1.38 with moose mold bullet per Charlie recommendations. Cartridge ends up flush with the breech. Dont know what you mean by sealing it, other than I am using hair curler papers white glued to the end of the tube, if that is what you mean. The flash channel appears clear. Taking out the screw and using a pipe cleaner, it is visible through the holes.

Does anyone know if there is a hotter cap?

If the fire channel is too large, I wonder if a sleeve could be put in horizontally to remedy this?

[keweenaw]

Well, when snapping a cap at the ground it shows good grass/leaf movement. While that does not represent fire, it does show a clear path for pressure all the way out. I am using new old stock RWS caps, which (from the olden days) were the hottest. I am looking at trying a number of nipple styles. Perhaps a straight sided one with the top of nipple counter sunk to allow max flash through the nipple and minimize any flash around the outside of the nipple (?). Using Hahn tube of 1.38 with moose mold bullet per Charlie recommendations. Cartridge ends up flush with the breech. Dont know what you mean by sealing it, other than I am using hair curler papers white glued to the end of the tube, if that is what you mean. The flash channel appears clear. Taking out the screw and using a pipe cleaner, it is visible through the holes.

Does anyone know if there is a hotter cap?

If the fire channel is too large, I wonder if a sleeve could be put in horizontally to remedy this?

Also thinking about getting a nipple that takes a #11 cap. My understanding is someone out there makes a magnum version of their #11 cap. Maybe that would help??

[Yakiman]

Also thinking about getting a nipple that takes a #11 cap. My understanding is someone out there makes a magnum version of their #11 cap. Maybe that would help??

As I said, I got rid of the stock Pedersoli nipple and went to the one TOW recommended and the problem went away. The Pedersoli one was a tapered cone with a large flash hole. The TOW one is straight sided, musket cap fits snugly all the way down and the flash hole is small. Here's a side by side comparison. The TOW is item #MMS-1

83288329

[keweenaw]

As I said, I got rid of the stock Pedersoli nipple and went to the one TOW recommended and the problem went away. The Pedersoli one was a tapered cone with a large flash hole. The TOW one is straight sided, musket cap fits snugly all the way down and the flash hole is small. Here's a side by side comparison. The TOW is item #MMS-1

83288329

Thanks. Ordered one of these nipples and also one for a #11 cap as another alternative.

Concerning bullet options; Has anyone tried the Eras Gone 54 Sharps bullets? If so, can you provide some feedback on results.

Also, what are you folks using for lube?