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View Full Version : Loyalist Arms (Canada) Palmetto 1842 smoothbore



Gordon Bailey
08-06-2008, 11:35 AM
What is known about this offering? Will the SAC accept it? I suspect not but a new team member was attracted by the price.
Gordon Bailey

John Holland
08-07-2008, 09:24 AM
Gordon,

You are correct, it is not accepted by the Small Arms Committee for use in the N-SSA.

John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee

RaiderANV
08-07-2008, 04:17 PM
Ut-oh :shock: What's wrong with it John. I was about to pick one up really really cheap. :cry:

John Holland
08-08-2008, 12:39 AM
We've covered this numerous times before, but I don't mind doing it again. These arms are imported into Canada unvented. This means they are imported as decorators. This also means the barrels are not proofed for firing a projectile. That is where the N-SSA's Small Arms Committee parts company with them. We have never even had one submitted to us to see if they are dimensionally correct.

Pat...they must be "...really really cheap..." for a reason!

John Holland
SAC

Mike w/ 34th
08-08-2008, 01:16 AM
Pat,

See this page for what can happen with these Indian repros.

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/1466

When you drill the vent, if you drill it wrong and it crosses the breech plug threads, powder can get into the poorly-fitted theads and blow the barrel apart.

My rule for keeping all my digits intact, "If it's not proofed, it's not a gun." No proofie, no bang bang.

Loyalist Arms makes some fine guns from Italian parts, but the Indian stuff is dreck.

Cheers,

Mike

threepdr
08-08-2008, 12:16 PM
I'm involved in the Rev War living history and a great many of the Indian made muskets are used in the hobby. Many are also used for live fire. The only one that has ever "blown" is he one that is show in the link above. A recent labaratory analysis of the gun revealed that a bore obstruction (contrary to what the owner claims) was the culpret. The steel used in the barrel is the same grade as used in most Italian repros.

The fit and finish of many of these guns is not as good as the Italian repros, but I don't think they should be discounted purly on where they were made. The unvented status is not because they are decorator quality, but because it is much easier to ship them to non-gunfreindly countries if they are not operational.

As far as the measurements etc, most will be as good or better than the Italian reproductions. We would have to disqualify many of our Italian guns if that became an actual discriminator.

I have never handled any of the percussion guns, my comments are based on the Flintlock reproductions that are coming from the same sources.

Mike w/ 34th
08-08-2008, 05:36 PM
Mark,

How do you get an obstructed barrel when shooting blanks? Not being facetious, I really want to know how this happened, so it doesn't happen to the guy standing next to or behind me. My Rev War group doesn't allow Indian muskets at all, partly because of this incident. The guys who did have them said the finish did not hold up, and the guns looked like war relics after one season of use, despite constant cleaning and polishing.

And begging to differ, some ads for these Indian guns say that the barrels are made from DOM high pressure tubing (hydraulic tubing) which is turned down to barrel shape. DOM is not rated for the pressures generated by live firing. This is not how the Italians make barrels.

Other Indian and Khyber Pass guns have been shot to destruction besides just this one. In a controlled test on a Khyber Martini-Enfield, it took less than 20 rounds to distort the frame of the rifle, to the point where the action didn't work. After fixing that, the rifle energetically disassembled itself after less than 100 rounds of standard pressure .303 ball. These are not freak occurrences, they're repeatable and provable tests.

I have an Indian-made Bess, as well as a Japanese and an English one. You can probably guess which ones I fire and which one I use for decoration. The Indian gun's lock was garbage, too, hand fitted parts not hardened enough to stand up to any amount of wear at all. By not venting the barrel, they're circumventing the laws requiring guns to be proofed, which--yes--makes them easier to ship over international borders. In this one rare case, the law really is there for your safety.

I haven't seen any of their percussion guns, either, and it could be that with a Hoyt or Whitacre barrel, they'd be fine and dandy, but with an unproofed Indian barrel, they're unsafe. I wouldn't fire one, except in a bunker with a remote control.

No proof, no bang bang.

Cheers,

Mike

threepdr
08-08-2008, 06:55 PM
Mike,

I have a pdf copy of the lab report. Sorry don't have a link for it though. The lab says the barrel had bulge in the barrel about 18 inches from the breech with split running back to the breech. (I'm not a metalurgist so I'm just repeating this) After microscopic sections were looked at they concluded the barrel was made of 1100 series carbon steel as seen in most muzzleloading weapons with no evidence of inclusions that would have weakened the steel. hardness tests indicated a tensil strength of about 85,000 psi.

They could only guess on what the obstruction might have been. Extreme fouling in the bore forward of the bulge suggested that it had been fired alot without cleaning possibile causing a constriction in the barrel 18 inches forward of the chamber, through with powder could be poured, but a heavy blast would have trouble passing.

Add to this the possibility of of a double or triple charge.

As far as the antique Martinni is concerned firing modern .303 charges, I'm not sure how that relates to modern made muzzleloading reproductions.

This is the only Indian made musket that has had a failure. There have been at least two Pedersoli Besses that have failed through the years at reenactments, mainly due to overcharging.

macvcallsign
08-09-2008, 12:27 PM
Pat, How Cheap is Cheap????

John, If one was to be presented to SAC to see if the Dimensions were correct and the overall quality was acceptable, would it be possible to replace the barrel with an acceptable barrel and re-submitted for approval on an individual basis? Any of these,of course, would have to be submitted to SAC for final approval.

I do not own one, in fact, I have never even seen one but am thinking it might be an idea for someone who does not have a lot of money to invest to start shooting smoothbore? Although a good SB can be had, new in the box, for under $700.00 and they do shoot very well.

Just a thought. Now I remember one of the reasons(actually 2) why I never became a Re-enactor!!

Dennis
4th Kentucky Cavalry, CSA

John Holland
08-11-2008, 08:43 AM
Dennis,

The SAC would entertain the possibility of your suggestion that if the arm in question were otherwise correct, it could possibly be allowed on an individual basis with a proper replacement barrel from one of the N-SSA's approved barrel manufacturers. As you noted, everything would have to start with an examination of the base arm, with all parties understanding there are no guarantees it will meet our requirements.

John Holland
SAC

Mike w/ 34th
08-11-2008, 10:13 AM
Mark,

If you wouldn't mind sending me a copy of the PDF file, I'd really appreciate it. You can send it to romach@comcast.net I'm really eager to read it.

The Martini-Enfield in question was made within the last year or two by the same gunsmiths who make the muzzleloaders in question. It was not an antique, only a reproduction of an antique. This repro Martini literally broke apart after less than 100 rounds. (By contrast, my original .303 Martini has over 500 rounds through it and is shooting great.) Materials and manufacturing tolerances are the probable culprits there.

I know of one Pedersoli Bess that has burst. In that case, the kid's vent was obstructed and he kept loading, so when it finally went off, he had 8-10 charges--between 650 and 900 grains of powder--in the barrel. My team uses less for our mortar.

I'll tell you what, if you can find someone to submit their Indian reproduction barrel for proof testing, I'll pay for the test. Worst case, they have to buy a new custom barrel from a reputable maker. Best case, we save them a couple fingers.

Cheers,

Mike

macvcallsign
08-11-2008, 02:25 PM
John,

Yes, I agree. And even if it did pass an initial inspection I would wonder if the stock channel dimensions would be precise enough for a replacement barrel to fit? Some of these Repro's do take some liberties in some areas.

I remember many years ago one of our team mates had me take a Navy Arms Springfield down to Bill Large for a new barrel and Bill swore up and down he would never do another -the barrel channel did not match an originally dimensioned barrel and he had a heck of a time fitting it!

I remember telling him to think of it as a learning experience!!! :lol:
He did finally smile about it, but still said he would never make another. :lol:

Hope to see you at the Erie shoot.

Dennis
4th Kentucky Cavalry, CSA

threepdr
08-11-2008, 05:16 PM
Whitacre offers this, maybe it would work for one of the Indian guns.

"Available Services:
Remove the breech from your repro barrel and place it on one of our barrels, then copy the taper so it fits right back into your stock."

John Holland
08-11-2008, 09:53 PM
Mark,

The SAC inspection procedure requires identification of the breech, in addition to the barrel. We can not accept the breeches in question.

John Holland
SAC

Mike w/ 34th
08-12-2008, 10:29 AM
Mark,

Thanks for the report. The analysis of the metal hardness was enlightening. I think the "mysterious gray substance" is dry powder fouling. Fouling only turns black when there's lube or water to wet it. They make a lot of assumptions which, if they were correct, would result in exploding barrels all over the east coast every summer.

I got email from the Birmingham Proof house in England. They don't keep exact statistics, but they said the failure rate on Indian barrels during proofing is about 2%.

Cheers,

Mike

wolf57
08-12-2008, 12:12 PM
Which American made guns or barrels are proofed?

Edwin Flint, 8427
08-12-2008, 05:07 PM
Been watching topic with interest.

I suspect if the failure at the proof house is 2%, then in the field it is much higher. I doubt if Hoyt or Whitacre or any American barrel maker would still be in operating if they had a 2% failure rate. This is the true reason these show pieces are sent without the vent being bored. They are dangerous.

I have seen a couple of these things bought by one individual and was asked to help with one that was having lock problems. Both had soft metal in the lock parts and one lock was wearing very rapidly in the hole where the tumbler passed through the lock for the hammer.

At the very least, these will require a new barrel and several hours of Gunsmithing to get the locks tuned and hardened for the rigors of skirmishing.

Mike w/ 34th
08-12-2008, 07:12 PM
Wolf,

The laws in the US are different from those in Europe and Japan. The US currently requires that a design be proof tested, and then it is up to the manufacturer to not deviate in materials or methods from the sample that was tested. Other countries may or may not accept this standard. I've heard that if you sell a gun to someone in Britain, they have to have it proofed before they can put it on their Firearms Certificate to shoot it.

They sell these guns to reenactors in Britain, too. They're smoothbore so they count as "shotguns", which are easier to get on Certificate, and they have to be proofed after the barrels are vented and honed to remove tool marks.

Johan Steele
09-02-2008, 04:24 PM
I have had some experiance with Loyalist Arms; specifically their Lorenz, Enfield and have field repaired a Palmetto advising the young man to return it to where he purchased it and demand a refund. I work with Electricians in the Construction trade on a regular basis I'm saying that because I would feel safer using electrical conduit than that barrel.

The workmanship was abysmal.
Fit n finish on all of the above was questionable.
Loose Mainspring in the Palmetto lock broke after less than a dozen shots.
When Loyalist was asked about the barrels a customer was lied to, not once but twice being given two different incorrect answers.
Multiple, yes multiple, sutlers refuse to carry the product because of all of the above reasons.
They have two things going for them. Cost & weight.
The barrels aren't proofed, at all.
They enter Canada w/ no vents drilled & Loyalist doesn't proof them after that point either. Their reason for doing so when asked? "Nobody else does."... ummm wrong answer to give a knowledgeable customer.


You can always get two out of three on a purchase... Loyalist has chosen to offer cheap and fast avoiding the good caveat entirely. The NSSA has numerous quality vendors who supply quality merchandise, much of it US made. There is absolutely no doubt that you do get what you pay for from Loyalist Arms. I would have no qualms walking right out to the line w/ a purchase from Lodgewood as an example. Loyalist = wall hanger.

I've been told they used to make museum quality firearms; this may have been true. If so it is no longer.

R Filbert
03-08-2012, 09:32 PM
Good to see we are thinking guys-I have 1 of these and have Proofed it on my own- it didnt blow! They are not bad lookin muskets -actualy quite nice -They have a nice hand madeness about them. As mine is a 1795 and looks pretty dang good! Cheked against a SAC sheet and is within tolerances. Shoots fine and has a good spark. But before I try to compeate with it Im going to have Dan or Bobby do me a barrel and have SAC inspect it .Time you buy an Italian and put a barrel on it you still save a little. As for the proofing I double charged it and put 2 balls in it and mounted the barrel in a lead sled-fused it and got back. It jumped pretty good and didnt blow ! After close re measuring the barrel- all-was well- It didnt swell. Put it in the sled soas not to bust up my wood incase it did blow- You should never Proof a musket from the shoulder It may leave a mark! Allways re-move it . From what I understand this steel compaires to 10-40 Hot rolled cold drawn and is seemless. A British type steel. Barrels are suposedly made in a Jaguar mfg plant? Any how mine did fine and still does as I have fired it several times taking measurements and not exeding 60 grns of 3f. and a .690 round ball. Happy huntin fellas!

Maillemaker
03-09-2012, 10:55 AM
Wow, resurecting a 4-year-old thread! :)

I personally will never buy a firearm that is not manufactured and sold to be a firearm, and I don't want to stand in a line with some gun-like-object that someone has drilled out to make it work.

Steve

Blair
03-09-2012, 01:54 PM
It actually amazes me at the number of people who are willing to accept the responsibility of what "may" happen or occur with these 'thingies', and never take into account what may happen to that poor schmuck standing next to them.

Southron Sr.
03-10-2012, 01:00 PM
Those flintlocks and cap lock replicas are made and exported from India by exploiting a "Loophole" in Indian Proof Laws, i.e., if the "gun" is a "decorator" and never was intended to be fired, then it does not have to pass Indian "Proof."

The barrels are supposedly made out of high quality Seamless Steel Tubing. Obviously, whoever is making those guns in India is purchasing their seamless steel tubing from a company that has very poor quality control of their products.

In other words, avoid those cheap Indian firearms like the plague. Too many of them have blown up-THEY CANNOT BE TRUSTED!

R Filbert
03-19-2012, 10:11 PM
As to the blown musket barrel on that Bess- as it turns out that fellow had way to much powder in it and fell in the mud with it and lit it off! Not good! Packin a pipe that long with mud and falling with it drove the powder forwards laying it neer the length of the barrel with patch er what ever in it- Raised the gun up - got back on his feet and CA_BANG- A rep of Loyalist arms told me he saw this fellow 1st hand on a movie set fall with this weapon. This damage in my book could happen to any one of us who want to play war and arent careful! I say we cant and should not blame manufacturers for our'e unconsiousness no matter where they are from! I have seem many products of the US an other countries who's quality control is lacking -Weather it be Italians or Indians or Brits. lets just hope it never happens to one of us! We cant all own origianals so we have to make do with what's at hand - With that said good luck and good shootin! AB Capt Hazelwood Vol. 7th Va.CoE.

Edwin Flint
03-19-2012, 10:33 PM
Loyalist told a different story a few years ago. Told me it was too much powder in a gun that wasn't cleaned properly.

Blair
03-20-2012, 09:29 AM
Go back to posting #5, click on the link posted in that message. Now scroll down to the fourth images of the burst arm "thingy".
Can anybody see any evidence of threads on that breech plug section?
It is not simply a lack of proofing the barrels, it is an overall lack of attention to basic issues of safety that would be required in a 'real' firearm.


By the time these "thingies" are ship into the U S from Canada, they are not cheap! Usually they will cost more than $550.00 plus shipping. (check the web sites for U S prices)
Now, think about replacement cost of a 'good' approved barrel? What is that, another $3 to 4 hundred bucks, minimum?
But, that is only if the "thingy" measures up to be anything like the original arm it is suppose to represent.

Ron/The Old Reb
03-20-2012, 11:11 AM
Why spend you money on something of questionable quality in the first place.
" Buy a cheap tool and you will curse it every time you use it . Buy a good tool and you will soon forget how much you paid for it. "

Blair
03-20-2012, 03:45 PM
Ron,


Great analogy! Thanks for the input.

Let us all remember, firearms are the 'tools' of the soldiers. If we 'cheap' out on the primary tool of the soldier, we cheap out on those who actually participated.

Mike w/ 34th
03-25-2012, 08:13 PM
As to the blown musket barrel on that Bess- as it turns out that fellow had way to much powder in it and fell in the mud with it and lit it off!

This is incorrect. I read the official report, and they said there was no dirt, mud, or foreign objects in the barrel. Sounds like whoever told you this is looking for a good excuse.

Since the original conversation, I've seen another Indian flintlock musket that failed. In this case, the barrel wasn't properly fitted to the lock, and powder leaked from the pan into the lock inlet. Eventually, it went off and damaged the gun. This was an avoidable problem that could have been fixed with proper inleting and finishing. I can't swear in this case that it was all the gun's fault--it's possible that the owner didn't tighten the screws after removing the lock for cleaning--but it was an Indian gun.

Some of the Indian guns are getting better, but I still stand by my original statement, if the barrel is not proofed, it's not safe.

-Michael