What are the headaches with single-shot pistol?

[Mike McDaniel]

OK, it looks like the BOD has suspended single-shot pistol for the time being, at least until some new rules can be put into place. Does anyone have insight into what the concerns were?

[P.Altland]

Based on the Pistol Range Officer’s report, I’m going to say Time & Safety is one of them. There is way to much happening for 1 person.


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[MR. GADGET]

Based on the Pistol Range Officer’s report, I’m going to say Time & Safety is one of them. There is way to much happening for 1 person.


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One would think one person timing and one Safety should get it done.
We are not talking about a 8 man team.

[P.Altland]

Exactly. Problem is, currently it’s single timer/safety. One person cannot watch the targets and the loading and handling process.

Find the video posted by NW Region as an example. Safety is looking downrange as people are palming rammers.


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[RaiderANV]

Rarely do you see a Safety doing the job. They watch targets mainly, talk to members behind the line, stand next to timer and watch or talk to them, check their phone for whatever and occasionally look up at what's going on. There are some that do it correctly......some. Everyone I've taught I make sure they constantly walk up and down the line watching only the shooters loading and firing. Always back and forth until the line is cleared. I've asked other members why they don't walk the line and or say something especially to folks thumbing their balls and the usual response.....Dude, I'm tired of listen to chit if I say something. They'll learn when they blow a finger off. Or a derivative of that kind of reply. I remember starting back in 1983 and seeing a guy sent off the line by his own unit for not doing the job correctly nor listening to his commander when told to get on the ball. Back when things were done right.

[P.Altland]

The question is:

In an event with a minimal number of targets and a single Timer/Safety, where does their Primary responsibility lie? In Revolver, a competitor only loads once so observing the targets would seem to be the Primary duty. In SS Pistol, 3 competitors are loading a short barreled, muzzle first firearm in relatively tight quarters repeatedly. Now what is the the Primary duty observing targets or loading. Can’t do both effectively and that very thing was observed during Fall National with a competitor fumbling under the shooting bench for his fallen rammer while holding a loaded and capped Pistol.

As for Safeties not doing their job, that’s a leadership problem that starts with the Unit Commanders. I’m amazed almost daily how there are so many people that don’t have a reasonable understanding of the rules of an organization that they are a paying member of.


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[RaiderANV]

Good points Paul. Myself I don't see the need to watch targets though I do sometimes. I start the timer at the sound of the horn and stop it when someone yells time. Can't fathom someone not being able to time and watch/safety guys. This is no problem easily solved by those involved being diligent and do their job.

[rgsheppard]

Rarely do you see a Safety doing the job. They watch targets mainly, talk to members behind the line, stand next to timer and watch or talk to them, check their phone for whatever and occasionally look up at what's going on. There are some that do it correctly......some. Everyone I've taught I make sure they constantly walk up and down the line watching only the shooters loading and firing. Always back and forth until the line is cleared. I've asked other members why they don't walk the line and or say something especially to folks thumbing their balls and the usual response.....Dude, I'm tired of listen to chit if I say something. They'll learn when they blow a finger off. Or a derivative of that kind of reply. I remember starting back in 1983 and seeing a guy sent off the line by his own unit for not doing the job correctly nor listening to his commander when told to get on the ball. Back when things were done right.


For a single Timer/Safety, the primary concern should be safety. The T/S doesn't call the targets if hit and they can be checked after the horn. With only three shooters, a single T/S should be sufficient if that person exercises due diligence and acts responsible. A loading stand should also be required of all SBP shooters so that loading can be controlled in a safe direction and restricting the shooter from waving the gun in an unsafe manner.

[ChrisWBR]

The question is:

In an event with a minimal number of targets and a single Timer/Safety, where does their Primary responsibility lie? In Revolver, a competitor only loads once so observing the targets would seem to be the Primary duty. In SS Pistol, 3 competitors are loading a short barreled, muzzle first firearm in relatively tight quarters repeatedly. Now what is the the Primary duty observing targets or loading. Can’t do both effectively and that very thing was observed during Fall National with a competitor fumbling under the shooting bench for his fallen rammer while holding a loaded and capped Pistol.

As for Safeties not doing their job, that’s a leadership problem that starts with the Unit Commanders. I’m amazed almost daily how there are so many people that don’t have a reasonable understanding of the rules of an organization that they are a paying member of.


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Paul summarizes the concerns. During the demonstration SSP matches multiple safety violations were observed with safeties taking no action. Given a review of issues and the potential for a serious accident (which would affect our insurance) our legal advisor suggested we table the matches until a safety review was conducted and report provided to the Board.
As I am one of the people conducting the review, if you have suggestions for improving SSP team match safety, please send them on to me. I can be reached at chris@washingtonbluerifles.com.
The intent is to get a safety review done, make recommendations, implement them, and continue SSP team matches if the Board votes to resume.
Chris
National Revolver Range Officer

[Toddj]

I've timed and safety'd for smooth bore pistol Team competition once. After the event I went to our commander and told him my concerns and informed him I would never safety for this event again. \\

Its hectic and you have to be focused on the loaders.


Recommendations:
1. For the loading part, I think we need to devise a mandatory loading block to hold the pistol when loading. One that will hold the weapon firmly and slightly forward of vertical, that keeps the barrel from moving. The one thing I noticed was that the competitor is concentrating on getting the round down the barrel and seated and some were not aware that the barrel was moving towards someone's head. I called this out time and time again. There's too much risk for a person to load while holding the weapon.

2. Make it mandatory to keep the dividers up. The team I safety'd dropped the dividers between them, I ask them not to do this but was informed that by the rules, they could do it. SO you had people shooting, sparks flying while the other team members were loading, open powder exposed in very close proximity. NOT GOOD.

3. Train the safety Officers for each team. 30 minutes prior to the event, have all the people acting as safety officers meet at the range, go over their responsibilities and some of the things to look for on the line that's not acceptable and EXPRESS the IMPORTANCE of their JOB. After the event, have them meet to go over their observations and possible improvements to safety. At least for the first few competitions.

4. Give more power to the safety officer to ground weapons and pull competitors for safety violations. And if anyone gives the safety officer grief, the team is pulled from the line.

I would also videotape the first few events so it may be examined for shooting line issues and safety problems that could be addressed. I would keep that same tower crew and support together so you have consistency of observations.

It doesn't seem it by the write-up above, but I'm looking forward to this event, it should be a lot of fun!! IF done right.

JT
12th US Regulars

[P.Altland]

I've timed and safety'd for smooth bore pistol Team competition once. After the event I went to our commander and told him my concerns and informed him I would never safety for this event again. \\

Its hectic and you have to be focused on the loaders.


Recommendations:
1. For the loading part, I think we need to devise a mandatory loading block to hold the pistol when loading. One that will hold the weapon firmly and slightly forward of vertical, that keeps the barrel from moving. The one thing I noticed was that the competitor is concentrating on getting the round down the barrel and seated and some were not aware that the barrel was moving towards someone's head. I called this out time and time again. There's too much risk for a person to load while holding the weapon.

2. Make it mandatory to keep the dividers up. The team I safety'd dropped the dividers between them, I ask them not to do this but was informed that by the rules, they could do it. SO you had people shooting, sparks flying while the other team members were loading, open powder exposed in very close proximity. NOT GOOD.

3. Train the safety Officers for each team. 30 minutes prior to the event, have all the people acting as safety officers meet at the range, go over their responsibilities and some of the things to look for on the line that's not acceptable and EXPRESS the IMPORTANCE of their JOB. After the event, have them meet to go over their observations and possible improvements to safety. At least for the first few competitions.

4. Give more power to the safety officer to ground weapons and pull competitors for safety violations. And if anyone gives the safety officer grief, the team is pulled from the line.

I would also videotape the first few events so it may be examined for shooting line issues and safety problems that could be addressed. I would keep that same tower crew and support together so you have consistency of observations.

It doesn't seem it by the write-up above, but I'm looking forward to this event, it should be a lot of fun!! IF done right.

JT
12th US Regulars

Interesting. My suggestion would be to remove the dividers between members of the same company. It makes it easier to see the loading process as a safety. The only reason the dividers are there is to keep down the “peppering effect” from the revolver cylinders. Some ranges don’t have dividers at all. Capron for example in Tidewater Region doesn’t and frankly I kind of like it better that way.


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[jonk]

When someone is doing exclusively safety duties, it is their job NOT to watch targets (other than perhaps the first volley after watching safe loading practices prior to). After that they should watch shooters loading habits. Make sure they aren't thumbing balls or anything else stupid. Whether they walk up and down the line or stay put depends on the numbers on the team, their vantage point, that sort of thing. If they can see all shooters clearly on a short team of like 5 people, they might get away with standing still, otherwise they should be in constant motion.

When someone is doing both jobs- for instance for a smoothbore team at regional shoots where one person can do both at once- they STILL should focus on JUST the safety issue. It is the designated "caller's" job to yell "TIME" when his or her team has finished. The timer in fact should NOT call time until the team leader does just that.

We shouldn't stop a growing event because someone isn't doing their job or hasn't been briefed on HOW to do their job. We should educate and as needed crack down on said people.

As such I don't see the issue with one person doing this job. That one person just needs to observe safety concerns and only be aware of his surroundings enough to hear that "TIME" call. Just like SB regional long gun shoots.


It is the responsibility of the line judges or the tower respectively, depending on the size and location of the event, to call out safeties who are not doing their jobs.

Just my take.

[P.Altland]

When someone is doing exclusively safety duties, it is their job NOT to watch targets (other than perhaps the first volley after watching safe loading practices prior to). After that they should watch shooters loading habits. Make sure they aren't thumbing balls or anything else stupid. Whether they walk up and down the line or stay put depends on the numbers on the team, their vantage point, that sort of thing. If they can see all shooters clearly on a short team of like 5 people, they might get away with standing still, otherwise they should be in constant motion.

When someone is doing both jobs- for instance for a smoothbore team at regional shoots where one person can do both at once- they STILL should focus on JUST the safety issue. It is the designated "caller's" job to yell "TIME" when his or her team has finished. The timer in fact should NOT call time until the team leader does just that.

We shouldn't stop a growing event because someone isn't doing their job or hasn't been briefed on HOW to do their job. We should educate and as needed crack down on said people.

As such I don't see the issue with one person doing this job. That one person just needs to observe safety concerns and only be aware of his surroundings enough to hear that "TIME" call. Just like SB regional long gun shoots.


It is the responsibility of the line judges or the tower respectively, depending on the size and location of the event, to call out safeties who are not doing their jobs.

Just my take.

Is there a problem with Safeties understanding the importance of their job? Yes. But, did you actually read the example cited? What people need to admit is that we have a Skirmisher problem. This Skirmisher didn’t display even the most basic of gun handling safety and there are plenty more like him/her. Rule #1 - Always know where your muzzle is pointed. In the example, the moment the Skirmisher bent down could have been too late and even the most vigilant of Safeties couldn’t have stopped it. We participate in a game where milliseconds can be the difference.

Shooting wasn’t new to me when I became a member after a Fall National, I had been shooting center fire guns for 30 years, but. my sponsor and I spent the winter practicing loading and handling and my Unit Commander needed to be sure I was a safe Skirmisher for the sake of everyone.

Like I said in an earlier, these problems fall back to Unit and Regional Commanders to be sure their members are safety conscious, first and foremost. But, Fill the Ranks is the order of the day. Let’s improve that deficit number

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the Smoothbore Pistol is the event most right for a catastrophic event and deserves to be reviewed. One major accident and the Ranks would have to double to afford the insurance.


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[Maillemaker]

I agree that we have probably gotten a bit lazy in our vigilance due to habit.

I just sent this out to my team last night as a reminder. It would be good for someone with a fuller understanding of the rules to write an article on this for The Skirmish Line. I'm sure I got some detail or other wrong.

Hi all,

We have a few new or returning folks on the team, so I thought I would
drop a note on Timer/Safety duties at skirmishes. Hopefully it's a good
refresher for old-timers, too.

During a skirmish, at some point you will be called upon to serve as a
timer or a safety for another team. We typically rotate through this so
nobody gets stuck doing it all the time.

It's a good idea to keep a spare stopwatch in your shooting box so that
you always have one handy should you be called on to act as a timer.

Timers and Safeties are not allowed to "coach" the team on the line. We
have tended to be lax about this at regional skirmishes and I'm guilty of
it myself but we are not supposed to make any comments about whether a
target was hit or not, or if someone is shooting high or low, or whatever.
This is in the interest of fairness for all teams.

When timing, be sure you start the stopwatch when the horn sounds, and
stop the stopwatch when the designated person on the team calls "time".
Sometimes it is obvious when the last target is hit but the timer should
not stop the clock until the team calls "time" as they may think there are
other unhit targets they wish to continue shooting at. When you arrive at
the line you should always ask the team, "Who is calling time?" and remind
them that you will stop the watch only when they call time. The timer
should be especially alert as the last of the targets are left so that
they are ready to stop the clock. After the team has been cleared from
the line the timer should accompany the team captain to the stat shack to
report the time.

When serving as safety, all of your attention should be on the shooters -
not the targets. As safety, your primary functions are to watch the
shooters to make sure no unsafe actions are taken and to declare the
firearms as cleared before they leave the line. Safeties should also scan
the field from time to time to make sure no one or nothing has strayed
onto the field (loose dog, kid) that would require the calling of a cease
fire.

The safety should constantly be in motion, moving up and down the team, so
that each shooter can be observed. Some things to watch for are not
"thumbing" the ball, proper tipping of the powder into the barrel without
getting the hands and fingers over the muzzle, proper ramming without
getting hands or fingers over the end of the ramrod, and keeping the
muzzle pointed at the backstop (not the sky) during and after capping.

After the team has been cleared off the line, if you have seen any of the
above safety infractions you may choose to speak to the individual, or the
entire team, and point it out. You can phrase it generically like, "Some
of you need to watch for thumbing the ball", or "Some of you need to make
sure you keep the muzzle pointed at the backstop after capping". If the
violator continues after more than one relay then you may need to speak to
the violator specifically and/or involve the team captain. Always point
out violations in an impartial manner. The focus is on safety issues, not
on dressing down someone.

Do not be afraid to call out safety violations that you see. It does not
matter if you are a new shooter or if they are long-time shooters. If you
see a safety issue, bring it to the shooter's attention in a respectful
manner. No one should be upset about being reminded about a safety issue.
All of us get caught up in habit and in the heat of competition - this is
why we have safeties watching the line. In the rare event that someone
did get upset about being called on a safety violation (and I have never
seen this), simply involve the team captain and, if necessary, the
skirmish director.

After the horn sounds to end the relay, you must supervise the "clearing"
of arms from the line. For muzzle loading arms, this involves watching
each shooter fire a cap from the shoulder, and then one into the ground in
front of them. The cap fired at the ground should cause dirt or leaves to
move. For breech loading arms, this involves looking down the barrel from
the breech end. If there is debris (from a paper cartridge, for example)
or smoke in the barrel request the shooter to blow it out so that it can
be visually inspected. For revolvers, the revolver should be pointed
upwards and the shooter should rotate the cylinder so that you can
visually observe that every chamber is empty. Then the shooter should
point the revolver downrange and rotate the cylinder so that you can
visually observe that there are no caps on any nipple.

When you have cleared the shooter, say, "Clear" so they know they are
clear as an individual. When you have cleared all shooters on the line,
say, "The line is clear and may retire." Shooters may need a minute to
gather up spent cartridge cases or bayonets/knives or whatever, but the
safety should stay on the line until all the firearms are removed from the
line. Try to urge dawdlers to remove their firearms from the line. This
is because the skirmish director cannot clear the line and move on to the
next relay until all firearms are off the line.

The safety flag has a green end and a red end. The green end should
always be held aloft when everything is OK. The red end is only raised if
there is a fouled musket.

That's about it!
Steve

[P.Altland]

Light reading.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54db881ce4b0486db510c47b/t/5a9882a9ec212da7cbee6d4c/1519944362391/Safety-Officer-Manual-2018.pdf


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[Stefan]

I want to start by saying that I thoroughly enjoyed the two demonstration smoothbore pistol team matches that I have participated in, so I take my hat off to Larry Brockmiller and the other people who helped start this activity. It is a great event for increasing the interest in pistol shooting and could easily grow the same way that smoothbore musket shooting has over the last couple of years. We just need to sort out a few practical issues, which I believe should be easily done.


I think the first thing we need to decide on when formalizing the rules is what we are trying to accomplish. I tried to ask that question before the first demonstration match but I never got a clear answer. For example, do we want to be really authentic and try to simulate loading one of these pistols on horseback where you would have to hold on to everything with your two hands (well maybe teeth also), including the reins of the horse? That would be very interesting, but impossible to do safely in a team match format.

The reason for asking the question was that I did not understand the current rule for keeping powder and caps in pouches on the belt but have everything else on the bench. This seems like an arbitrary compromise. Also, to make the use of a loading stand optional without a system for making sure that shooters are competent enough to load without one invites problems as we have seen.

My suggestion would be that that for the sake of safety, and to make the job of the safety person easier, we should just decide to give up on any desires for historical authenticity during the loading process, lay everything out on the bench, and require everybody to use a loading stand to keep the muzzle in a safe direction. It would reduce the amount of fumbling by the shooter and let the safety see where everything is.

I don’t know if people prefer not to use a stand because of a possible time saving during loading, or if it is the inconvenience of hauling a stand to the line. That was my concern because I am an admittedly lazy person. So if you belong to that same club, here’s my contribution to making this new competition safe.

Knowing myself very well, not only did I not want to carry a big heavy loading stand with me, I am also painfully aware that sometime in the future I would inevitably forget to bring it. For those reasons I decided that what I needed was something light that could go inside the pistol case. I am showing some photos of my set up here. It is very simple so I think it can be easily copied, but if you have any questions, please let me know.

The stand consists of two pieces of flat oak board (Home Depot) joined together with a piano hinge at one end. With the pistol in place the whole arrangement is very stable and when folded it is thin enough to be able to fit in the case under the foam as can be seen.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

I hope that this is cleared up quickly and it will be available this fall again. I had just bought an original 1836 conversion to shoot!

I think the basic problem may be competitors think they must rush to load. This could be stopped by mandating a period of time that loading can occur. Only allow the competitors one shot in 10 / 15 seconds. Allow the loading and capping to be done in 1 minute / or less. Signals for each can be done with the horn or verbal. I don't think this would kill the fun and would certainly add to safety! Please consider this. In the NWT we do something similar with the musket at 100 yds, firing at a plasterboard backer and counting hits. Similar, but we need to keep the targets we have designated for the pistol match. One other thought occurred. This suggestion also eliminates any need for a timer, since the horn is the signal for starting and stopping.

[efritz]

Why can’t we just address the the individual committing the infraction like any other using any other firearm?

[P.Altland]

I hope that this is cleared up quickly and it will be available in this fall again.

I think the basic problem may be competitors think they must rush to load. This could be stopped by mandating a period of time that loading can occur. Only allow the competitors one shot in 10 / 15 seconds. Allow the loading and capping to be done in 1 minute / or less. Signals for each can be done with the horn or verbal. I don't think this would kill the fun and would certainly add to safety! Please consider this. In the NWT we do something similar with the musket at 100 yds, firing at a plasterboard backer and counting hits. Similar but we need to keep the targets we have designated for the pistol match.

Don’t we already do Volley Fire? The reality of this match and every other is the pure lack of basic gun handling skills that no Rules can address. Watching Skirmishers at a National is a head scratcher at best. I’ve had so many muzzles pointed my way in the ready area that I’ve lost count. Now project that forward to a short barrel muzzleloading Smoothbore Pistol. There needs to be serious work done from a shooter perspective. There is such a sense of carelessness. Rule #2 ALWAYS treat a gun as if it we’re loaded. I think back a few Fall Nationals ago. The first relay of Musket Match a Skirmisher has his musket discharge during Snap Caps. His gun was left loaded from Deer Season. Ask yourself how many people did he point that muzzle at while walking, moving around the ready area, or checking his sights? I’ll bet more than 1.

Think you can legislate ignorance, guess again.

Steve’s note to his team on Timing/Safety is a good example. In it he instructs Safeties doing Revolver to first check the cylinders and then check the nipples for caps. Wouldn’t logic tell you that the muzzle should remain down range in a safe direction until you can verify that there is no remaining source of ignition before you look down the business end of a cylinder?

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[jonk]

Is there a problem with Safeties understanding the importance of their job? Yes. But, did you actually read the example cited? What people need to admit is that we have a Skirmisher problem. This Skirmisher didn’t display even the most basic of gun handling safety and there are plenty more like him/her. Rule #1 - Always know where your muzzle is pointed. In the example, the moment the Skirmisher bent down could have been too late and even the most vigilant of Safeties couldn’t have stopped it. We participate in a game where milliseconds can be the difference.

Shooting wasn’t new to me when I became a member after a Fall National, I had been shooting center fire guns for 30 years, but. my sponsor and I spent the winter practicing loading and handling and my Unit Commander needed to be sure I was a safe Skirmisher for the sake of everyone.

Like I said in an earlier, these problems fall back to Unit and Regional Commanders to be sure their members are safety conscious, first and foremost. But, Fill the Ranks is the order of the day. Let’s improve that deficit number

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the Smoothbore Pistol is the event most right for a catastrophic event and deserves to be reviewed. One major accident and the Ranks would have to double to afford the insurance.


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If we want to talk about muzzle control, yes, it's an issue. One need look no further than to 2 facts. 1. You see skirmishers carrying their guns behind the line, to the line, along the roads, etc. by holding the gun under the fat part of the stock just forward of the lock. What's the problem? The muzzle is constantly pointed parallel to the ground, in various directions, toward campers, people, whatever. WHENEVER you handle a gun you should make sure that it is pointed in a safe direction. If it isn't lashed to a cart or in a case, the shooters should be carrying these guns with the muzzles pointed at a 45 degree angle into the ground in front of them, or else perhaps skyward (which also isn't ideal). Why? 2. How many times when you hear, "Snap caps" at nationals, some inattentive shooter's gun goes off. Now maybe he loaded when he got to the line and the safety didn't catch it. Maybe that gun has been loaded with a live round since the last time he shot. If the latter, what's to say he doesn't also have a cap on it as he wanders around? Add cartridge guns into the mix and someone could be wandering around waving their gun to and fro with a .44/40 or whatever in the chamber, ready to rock and roll.

Now that's not unique to our sport. I see guys shooting clays at trap ranges, guys at Camp Perry, etc. all doing the same. Laziness and improper handling of guns in my opinion.

I bring this up because I see that as at least as big of a danger as someone struggling to load a stubby pistol and the muzzle is waving a bit. Not that that isn't an issue. It is. A big one. But one I still say, "Safety isn't doing his job." Just as with a long gun, you see that, you call it. Fast. If milliseconds matter- and they do- then they matter with all our guns, and I don't see why doing safety for SS pistol is procedurely any different than long guns. Nor are the duties of safeties different. If the safeties indeed are NOT doing their job in this respect, I don't see how adding a second timer to the event helps. As I said originally, if you are timing and safetying for a crew, your primary job MUST be safety. It's the responsibility of the team commander to yell "TIME". It is NEVER the responsibility of a timer to stop the clock UNTIL time is called. As such, this is a safety officer who just happens to have a clock in his hand.

I have watched the event. I have never shot it. Maybe if I did I would have a different appreciation here. I do think that from a loading safety point of view a mandatory loading stand would be smart, and yes... keep the dividers up. But I hope that a suitable revision to the event is realized and it can continue safely, whatever it's concerns.

[MR. GADGET]

Just my thoughts......

You all are making it way harder than it needs to be.

There is no reason you can not carry the caps, ball and powder In a tube like musket and other than that a ram rod.
Being we shoot one handed you can hold the rod or tuck the rod in your belt or other gear.

It really takes the fun out of it.

No need to have a stand for loading. Learn how to do it or don't show up on the line.

[P.Altland]

If we want to talk about muzzle control, yes, it's an issue. One need look no further than to 2 facts. 1. You see skirmishers carrying their guns behind the line, to the line, along the roads, etc. by holding the gun under the fat part of the stock just forward of the lock. What's the problem? The muzzle is constantly pointed parallel to the ground, in various directions, toward campers, people, whatever. WHENEVER you handle a gun you should make sure that it is pointed in a safe direction. If it isn't lashed to a cart or in a case, the shooters should be carrying these guns with the muzzles pointed at a 45 degree angle into the ground in front of them, or else perhaps skyward (which also isn't ideal). Why? 2. How many times when you hear, "Snap caps" at nationals, some inattentive shooter's gun goes off. Now maybe he loaded when he got to the line and the safety didn't catch it. Maybe that gun has been loaded with a live round since the last time he shot. If the latter, what's to say he doesn't also have a cap on it as he wanders around? Add cartridge guns into the mix and someone could be wandering around waving their gun to and fro with a .44/40 or whatever in the chamber, ready to rock and roll.

Now that's not unique to our sport. I see guys shooting clays at trap ranges, guys at Camp Perry, etc. all doing the same. Laziness and improper handling of guns in my opinion.

I bring this up because I see that as at least as big of a danger as someone struggling to load a stubby pistol and the muzzle is waving a bit. Not that that isn't an issue. It is. A big one. But one I still say, "Safety isn't doing his job." Just as with a long gun, you see that, you call it. Fast. If milliseconds matter- and they do- then they matter with all our guns, and I don't see why doing safety for SS pistol is procedurely any different than long guns. Nor are the duties of safeties different. If the safeties indeed are NOT doing their job in this respect, I don't see how adding a second timer to the event helps. As I said originally, if you are timing and safetying for a crew, your primary job MUST be safety. It's the responsibility of the team commander to yell "TIME". It is NEVER the responsibility of a timer to stop the clock UNTIL time is called. As such, this is a safety officer who just happens to have a clock in his hand.

I have watched the event. I have never shot it. Maybe if I did I would have a different appreciation here. I do think that from a loading safety point of view a mandatory loading stand would be smart, and yes... keep the dividers up. But I hope that a suitable revision to the event is realized and it can continue safely, whatever it's concerns.

Fix the Shooter problem and there is no safety problem.
Fix the Safety problem and you still have a shooter problem

[RaiderANV]

fix the shooter problem and there is no safety problem.
Fix the safety problem and you still have a shooter problem


best answer yet!!

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

IF you are upset, you want to reverse their decision, do it. Like Eric says. Yes, Its a safety Violation issue to be handled by a safety. Its just like any other violation, inforce it. Don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution. Safeties need to do the required job. Contact your Commander. This follows our N-ssa rules. Listen to the shooters that are actually participating.

[Harry Gaul]

Here is my two cents on this matter. I was looking forward to participating in the Single Shot Pistol match as a pick up in the Spring. We now know that is not going to happen. Am I disappointed, yes? According to previous posts, there are safety and skirmisher issues here. You can have every rule in the book, but the human error on the skirmisher is ever present. The single shot pistol is a very short barrel firearm. Now enter any rule you want, but the skirmisher actions are in a state of flux. Now, add the safety watching the action. Add any rule you want. Safety skirmisher actions are in a state of flux. Now, add the concept of the Bell Shaped Curve of Safety and Rewards. On the left you have totally safety activity, and on the right, you have totally dangerous activity. Bring in the actions of the short barrel firearm, barrel up or barrel parallel, loading stand or no loading stand, actions of the skirmisher, and then the actions of the safety, and most of us will agree that the possibility of an accident lies towards the right end or dangerous end of the curve. Numbers do not lie. Considering the total picture of variables, it is possible that the dangerous factors outweigh the safe factors, and it is not worth it to jeopardize the solvency of the Association for a Thursday afternoon of competition. Safety first, Protect the Association, Do not appear on the Nightly News.

True Blue and Diamond Hard,
Harry Gaul
03626 V
Regional Inspector
3rd US

[John Holland]

I have questioned the wisdom of the "Double Duty" assignment of combining the responsibilities of both the Line Judge and the Safety Officer ever since that decision was made. One person is not going to perform both duties adequately, much less as charged in our very own Rules.

"Rule 4.14, General Duties of Line Judges" regarding elimination events, calls out nine (9) different responsibilities to be addressed while on the line as a formal Line Judge. Two (2) of these spelled out responsibilities are watching for early shots prior to the command to fire, and late shots after time or cease fire has been called. While performing this Line Judge duty, the Safety Officer duties are neglected. If one of the team events is a Silhouette event, then four (4) more responsibilities are added for a new total of 13 duties for the Line Judge to follow.

"Rule 4.15, General Duties of Safety Officers", for all events, calls out seven (7) different responsibilities to be addressed by the Safety Officer while performing his/her duties as an Official Safety Officer. The very first requirement 14.15 (a) states: "A Safety Officer must have a working knowledge of all parts of Section 20: Loading and clearing Small Arms that pertain to the type of arm being used in competition."

Does anyone really think that one person is going to properly perform 15, or 20 maximum, tasks during a rapid fire team match? Very simply, no they are not, which is why this lengthy discussion has come about.

I encourage everyone to actually read Rules 14.14 & 14.15, and then tell me how any one person is supposed to comply with them. It is an impossibility, and until that issue is addressed the problems cited in this multi-page discussion will continue unabated.

These are my opinions, and mine only.

John Holland
Skirmisher

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Finally someone we all respect puts it into perspective. Lets fix this quickly.
It seems simple enough to have both a safety and a timer. Contact your Regional Commander.

[P.Altland]

Finally someone we all respect puts it into perspective. Lets fix this quickly.
It seems simple enough to have both a safety and a timer. Contact your Regional Commander.

Said that a single timer/safety wasn’t enough in Post #2 and #4. Little late to the party?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jonk]

Fix the Shooter problem and there is no safety problem.
Fix the Safety problem and you still have a shooter problem
A very succinct summary in response of what I said, far more so than my post. My only retort would be this:

If all shooters, whatever the event, practiced perfect firearms control 100 percent of the time, we would need no safety. This never happens. We are all human. I've seen guys at their first shoot practice perfect handling and 30 year veterans thumb the ball or open their breech to show me a clear carbine with a round still in the chamber and a cap on the nipple. And vice versa, of course. It happens. That's why we need safeties.

As to what John Holland said: there is much merit in his argument, that whatever the number of men on the line, one person CANNOT do both jobs as well as two people can. Can an experienced and attentive skirmisher do it adequately for a small team? Maybe. Probably. But not for sure. Certainly not for a new event where we're still working out the kinks.

I wonder, maybe running this as a demo only event with 2 men on the line doing traditional time and safety for it until we work out the kinks may be a way to go.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Just make it 1 safety and 1 timer for now. Look at all the N-ssa Rules we have. They were not created over night, but over 50 years............ Not one new type of event was ever stopped like this one was. If you look at the amount of our rules, every event type is still being developed. Just saying

[John Holland]

Regarding the shooters themselves, I have seen a degradation in respect for the Rules. What I am beginning to hear on a much too regular basis is "The Rules don't say I CAN'T do that!" That certainly isn't the proper mindset to be on a firing line with live fire competition. That mindset, along with people trying to bend the Rules for a personal advantage, are the primary reason the N-SSA's Rule Book is now comprised of 238 pages.

An example of some of the problems being experienced with the Smooth Bore Pistol Match is: A competitor was observed trying to drive a tight ball down the bore with a brass ram rod by pounding on the end of the rod with a pair of pliers. When stopped by the Safety Officer, rather than comply with the order to stop what he was doing and to place the pistol on the bench, the competitor instead used a bully tactic and argued with the Safety Officer, demanding to be shown where in the Rules it says he can't do that! This is but one example of the problems this intended match is experiencing.

And people wonder why this match is having problems getting adopted as a part of the National Program? Really?

I was on the Committee that studied the possibility of adding the Individual Match to the program, and adjusting the Rules for it. When the Board of Directors agreed to add the Single Shot Smooth Bore Pistol Individual Match to the National Program it was done with the Board's own proviso that the Smooth Bore Pistol Match "...WOULD NEVER BE ADDED TO THE NATIONAL PROGRAM AS A TEAM MATCH."

After two "Demonstration Matches", all I see is that those who want this match can't even follow the basic Rules of the N-SSA, nor will they follow the orders of a Safety Officer. Perhaps this intended team match should be put back in the vault of things that didn't work.

[Mike McDaniel]

When the Board of Directors agreed to add the Single Shot Smooth Bore Pistol Individual Match to the National Program it was done with the Board's own proviso that the Smooth Bore Pistol Match "...WOULD NEVER BE ADDED TO THE NATIONAL PROGRAM AS A TEAM MATCH."
...
Perhaps this intended team match should be put back in the vault of things that didn't work.
You may be right. I always had misgivings about a team event.

[Michael T.]

If you don't lock you elbow... it may come back and hit you in the head,,,:D

[Jim Barber]

Regarding the shooters themselves, I have seen a degradation in respect for the Rules. What I am beginning to hear on a much too regular basis is "The Rules don't say I CAN'T do that!" That certainly isn't the proper mindset to be on a firing line with live fire competition. That mindset, along with people trying to bend the Rules for a personal advantage, are the primary reason the N-SSA's Rule Book is now comprised of 238 pages.

An example of some of the problems being experienced with the Smooth Bore Pistol Match is: A competitor was observed trying to drive a tight ball down the bore with a brass ram rod by pounding on the end of the rod with a pair of pliers. When stopped by the Safety Officer, rather than comply with the order to stop what he was doing and to place the pistol on the bench, the competitor instead used a bully tactic and argued with the Safety Officer, demanding to be shown where in the Rules it says he can't do that! This is but one example of the problems this intended match is experiencing.

And people wonder why this match is having problems getting adopted as a part of the National Program? Really?

I was on the Committee that studied the possibility of adding the Individual Match to the program, and adjusting the Rules for it. When the Board of Directors agreed to add the Single Shot Smooth Bore Pistol Individual Match to the National Program it was done with the Board's own proviso that the Smooth Bore Pistol Match "...WOULD NEVER BE ADDED TO THE NATIONAL PROGRAM AS A TEAM MATCH."

After two "Demonstration Matches", all I see is that those who want this match can't even follow the basic Rules of the N-SSA, nor will they follow the orders of a Safety Officer. Perhaps this intended team match should be put back in the vault of things that didn't work.

I think the more times change, the more they stay the same.

My brother, in his very first Nationals 40-ish years ago as a young whippersnapper, was lucky enough to be on a host team instead of actually skirimishing. Being a spry teenager, he was assigned to pulling targets on individuals. His very first day on the job, a very loud fellow (much his senior in age as well as temperament) bellowed at him, "Boy! Line judge! I have a five-X! Circle it and sign it, right here!" He gestured at five distinct, triangular, bayonet-shaped holes in the X ring of the target. Though he was young, and remains as foolish now as he was then, my brother recognized the peculiar resemblance to 5 triangular bayonet holes, rather than the musket holes riddling the rest of the target. He protested that he wasn't a line judge, but the obstinate gentleman insisted that he mete out justice, thrusting a pen in his face and berating him for his reticence. Fortunately, an older, wiser skirmisher-- an actual line judge-- came upon the scene, identified the farcical 5-X bayonet holes, and pulled the target himself for further inspection by the authorities. I'm told he did not mince words with the offender, and used some choice vocabulary which would be strongly frowned upon by God-fearing people.

The point of this rather extreme (though true!) example isn't that there are crooks and ne'er do-wells everywhere. The point is that we need to back one another up when we see something unsafe (or unsportsmanlike). Imagine being a 15 year old safety telling a 70 year old man he's tilting his musket too far back when loading, or thumbing his balls, or... the list goes on. Safety (and sportsmanship, though much less important) needs a spokesman... everyone needs to stick up for that spokesman. There's no money to be won in N-SSA, not even a ham or a slab of bacon. Just bragging rights. There's plenty of stuff out there to kill or maim us without worrying about skirmishing too. Be safe, watch your neighbor on the line when you can, and always think about the position of that 15 (or 50) year old kid assigned to safety you on the line-- support your line safety when he (or she) makes a call.

My $.02

Cheers!
Jim B.
Grove City, OH

[Muley Gil]

I think the more times change, the more they stay the same.

My brother, in his very first Nationals 40-ish years ago as a young whippersnapper, was lucky enough to be on a host team instead of actually skirimishing. Being a spry teenager, he was assigned to pulling targets on individuals. His very first day on the job, a very loud fellow (much his senior in age as well as temperament) bellowed at him, "Boy! Line judge! I have a five-X! Circle it and sign it, right here!" He gestured at five distinct, triangular, bayonet-shaped holes in the X ring of the target. Though he was young, and remains as foolish now as he was then, my brother recognized the peculiar resemblance to 5 triangular bayonet holes, rather than the musket holes riddling the rest of the target. He protested that he wasn't a line judge, but the obstinate gentleman insisted that he mete out justice, thrusting a pen in his face and berating him for his reticence. Fortunately, an older, wiser skirmisher-- an actual line judge-- came upon the scene, identified the farcical 5-X bayonet holes, and pulled the target himself for further inspection by the authorities. I'm told he did not mince words with the offender, and used some choice vocabulary which would be strongly frowned upon by God-fearing people.

The point of this rather extreme (though true!) example isn't that there are crooks and ne'er do-wells everywhere. The point is that we need to back one another up when we see something unsafe (or unsportsmanlike). Imagine being a 15 year old safety telling a 70 year old man he's tilting his musket too far back when loading, or thumbing his balls, or... the list goes on. Safety (and sportsmanship, though much less important) needs a spokesman... everyone needs to stick up for that spokesman. There's no money to be won in N-SSA, not even a ham or a slab of bacon. Just bragging rights. There's plenty of stuff out there to kill or maim us without worrying about skirmishing too. Be safe, watch your neighbor on the line when you can, and always think about the position of that 15 (or 50) year old kid assigned to safety you on the line-- support your line safety when he (or she) makes a call.

My $.02

Cheers!
Jim B.
Grove City, OH

We had a police woman that worked for the department that always had trouble qualifying. One year, she and another officer were caught with a .38 caliber ink pen, punching holes in her target.