Please help me troubleshoot my 2 band Enfield.

[Obi2winky]

Hello everyone,

I have a new to me Parker Hale 2 band Enfield and it is my very first muzzle loader (I just joined NSSA for the 2019 season).

I've been trying to see where it shoots and so far my conclusion is everywhere LOL And so I was hoping I could get some advice for trouble shooting. I'm sure I'm doing a lot of basic things wrong, but I'm going to describe what I have done and hopefully you all can guide me.

The rifle seems essentially right out of the box. Very heavy trigger. Super short front sight and a super wide V-notch rear sight. I haven't altered anything. Bore seemed to be in very good condition.

The mold I have is a LEE 578-478-Minie. It does cast around 477gr +/- a few grains and 0.577. I'm still new to casting as well so they aren't the most perfect bullets either.
For lube, I'm using 50% beeswax and 50% olive oil. I just dip the bullet in the lube while its warm. When I load, I just let the extra lube that's caked on fall off as I push it down the muzzle. The bullet goes down pretty easily so my bore might be a tad bigger than .577?

For powder, I have 3F Goex. So far I've tried 40gr, 50gr, and 60 gr. And I present to you the results at 50 yards, rifle rested on my backpack. I knew it would shoot high at that distance so I used a fine-sight with point aim right under the red circle. Please excuse the shabbyness of the target setup. Too poh to afford nice targets... haha

The groups circled in red is the 60 grain group. The blue, 50 grain, and brown, 40 grain (a few was outside the target paper). The tiny holes are just me messing around with the Garand after getting frustrated with the Enfield.

7612

What I noticed is that even though I'm keeping the point of aim as consistently as I can, the rifle definitely is favoring left. And how much it favors left depends on charge weight.

Here come the questions:
-Is this common, to have your rifle poi change as you change charge weights?
-Do you guys do a quality control step when you select the bullets for shooting? Eg, only bullets that weigh within x % of nominal.
-Is my lubing step no good? My method does seem to contribute to inconsistent lubing. Any advice as to what lube to use with what method?
- Should I replace my front sight to something taller and also replace my rear sight to something that's conducive to more precise shot placement?

I think my commander will help me get my trigger pull down to something more competitive.

Any other advice, please, I'd love to hear them all.

[PoorJack]

I have a first gen Parker. With 42g 3f Old Eynsford, Hogdon minie sized 576, 50/50 beeswax/lard lube, it'll shoot 2in groups at 100yds. I recently worked a bit with another Parker one of my team has. With virtually no load development, it was shooting just over 2in at 50yd. That gun was marked .577 but when checked was found to be at least 580. Initial tests with 576 bullets were not successful with a big group and some keyholes. Changed to some 579s I had on hand and success.

On your gun-
You HAVE to know your actual bore size, not what's stamped on it, it CAN vary
Bullets HAVE to be about .001 under bore size.
Bullets should be QCed to eliminate variables. I use + - 1gr
Minies are best from pure lead. WW is too hard.
Lube is critical. I've tested Crisco v lard and lard won hands down on minies. I just dip lube the base.

Yes, point of impact can wander with charge differences. Not unusual.

Sights on my PH- taller thin front, rear built up with steel and fine notch cut.

[PoorJack]

One further comment, the ONLY Lee mold I have that works is their version of the Trashcan minie. It casts at 576. It's been discontinued and has never been available in any other size. None of their other minies shoots well in my PH. The two molds my gun shoots wel-. RCBS Hogdon sized to the bore and the Lee trashcan also sized to bore. Both prefer the lard based lube.

[bobanderson]

You have multiple issues that need to be addressed.

First, your rifle needs to GROUP. Group size is most affected by load, sights and trigger. I would fix the trigger pull first. A heavy trigger that is crisp and consistent is ok, but "very heavy" will interfere with your ability to break the shots in the same place, even off a rest. By the way, rest your rifle with your hand between the fore end and the rest to minimize barrel jump. A rested rifle will shoot higher than an offhand hold.

Next you should work on your load. First thing to know is your bore size. I believe Parker Hales are stamped under the breech. I would believe you can trust that marking for starters. If it's not marked, buy some minus bore gauges from Travers Tool to verify what you have. A "minus" gauge is .0005 (half a thousandth) under size so a .577 gauge will be an actual size .5765 that will be a snug fit into a .577 bore. These tools may cost you up to 5 bucks each, usually less, but will last you your skirmish career. I bought ranges of gauges around all of the common CW calibers (.515, .535-.540, .575 to .581 and .678 to .690) Sounds like a lot, but you'll waste a lot more money chasing group sizes.
I would try as many different bullets of the proper diameter as you can. One or two of those will be your magic bullet. Look for a sutler called CWBULLETMAN (I think). He advertises cast bullets for sale so you can get a small quantity of the common minies (500 gr Old Style, Lyman 575213 for instance). Shoot the heavier bullets with 40 grains of 3f to start and then with 5 grains more or less. Many shooters try 1 or 2 grain increments but in my experience, and for shooting offhand and at the distances we do, 5 grains is good enough for starters.
I size every bullet I shoot for two reasons. Sizing trues up the roundness of the skirt and removes excess lube that can affect loading. I use my own lube recipe in a Lyman lubrisizer with a custom base pin in the sizing die that presses the skirts out to the correct diameter. Many use a push through die with good results but that's not my style.
After you have the right load that groups, fix the sights. Once you have the front and rear sights reworked to give you a consistent sight picture (leave the front sight taller than you need it), you can calculate the needed corrections by dividing the sight radius by the distance to the target in inches. For example, lets say the distance from the back of the rear sight to the back of the front sight is 27". To move your group 1" at 50 yards, divide the sight radius (27") by 1800 (50 yards x 3 feet x 12 inches) and you get .015". For each 15 thousandth that you add, remove or move your sights right and left, your group will move 1" @ 50 yards. Save this calculation for future use as well.

This advice is what works for me. I'm not the top shooter on the line, but my guns hit where they are pointed, which is what you need to get to the next step.

[JW 5875V]

Other issues that will have dynamics on group size is if the bolster is touching the lock plate, tang screw being too tight,
and check barrel bands for tightness.
Also check bedding, sometimes too much oil
can get under the barrel and collect grime.


Welcome to Skirmishing where we all
learn something new every day!!!!!!!!!!

Jim W. 5875V
Allegheny City Guards

[Maillemaker]

I have a Pedersoli P58. It shoots very well using the RCBS-500M bullet with 60 grains 2F Goex. I had to put a taller front sight post on mine.

Yes, it is very common to see changes in POI and group size depending on load.

You need to use pure lead for expanding or compression bullets.

I size my bullets by going up in sizers by .001" increments until the bullet does not fit in the bore. Then I back down one .001".

I use a Lyman Lubrisizer that will lube and size at the same time. But, you can size and dip lube also.

I weigh all my bullets and re-melt any +/- .5% from average.

You may find a heavier bullet than your Lee bullet works better in the faster twist of the P58. Mine is 1:48; I assume yours is too.

Steve

[Obi2winky]

thanks all to the replies so far!

Bore size: PoorJack, I might be in a similar situation as your friend. I gently tapped in a larger led bullet sized at 0.6 to get a impression of the muzzle, and I got a 0.587! The underside of the barrel said to use 577 bullets though. I thought early generation Parker Hales had pretty good quality, but now I'm getting a bit skeptical. Mine has serial number 1794. I just ordered pin gauges 586, 587, and 588 to get a more accurate measure.

Stock bedding: I have not bedded anything yet. I took the barrel out and I didn't see any thing immediately suspicious. But as Jim W. pointed out, I checked the bolster-lock plate contact. If the barrel is seated in to the stock and tang bolt made snug, the lock plate won't go in... the bolster interferes with it. So what do I do now? Do I file off the lock plate or the bolster?

Trigger: I get the importance of this. I remember when I switched out my AR stock trigger to competition grade in prep for Highpower matches, my practice scores went up immediately. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm skilled enough to work on them. In terms of method, I found this NSSA website: http://www.nwtskirmisher.com/useful-locks.shtml Is this basically what to do?

Charge weights: Good to know that charge does affect POI. I reload for my center fire rifles and I'm accustomed to vertical POI shifts but not so much lateral shifts. At the same time, I never make 10 grain increments for load development either for that haha. It's interesting that Steve ended up with a charge that was bit on the higher end. Good data point to keep in mind. Mine is probably 1:48 as well. It's an early Parker Hale 2 band. So just from my center-fire reloading knowldge, I figure it would prefer heavier projectiles. I think I read a whole bunch of your posts regarding that also. It's been very educational!

Bullet: Once I figured out what the true bore size is for my rifle, I think I'll take Bob's advice and sample ready made bullets. That will rule out my casting skills. But I do have a question regarding the sizing of bullets. Are you able to size up? Since my bore seems to be larger than nominal, I'm not sure if there are many molds that will drop something higher than 587. Bob, is you custom base pin for the sizer made just for that purpose? I don't have a sizer since those things seem to be expensive...

Sights: As a few of you said, I'll leave it as it is for now and focus on groups.



thank you again for the many advise so far!

[Maillemaker]

You can't count on what is stamped on the barrel. I had a Euroarms P53 that turned out to have a .584 bore. I forget if it has the size stamped on the barrel but it never did shoot well even when I found a bullet that big to fit it. I ended up replacing it with a Whitacre barrel.

You can "beagle" a mold by shimming it with metal tape, which will give you a slightly larger bullet across the mold blocks dimension. You can also put them in a die and swage them which will shorten them and fatten them up a bit.

But best bet is to find a mold that drops at size or slightly bigger so you can size down. If you get lucky you can shoot as cast.

Steve

[Lou Lou Lou]

Obi
Do any of your new teammates live near you? They would be a great resource. As a new person you may not be able to execute all of the suggestions. Good to have a shooting buddy

[JW 5875V]

For the lock plate / bolster clearance,
you could file either one, I prefer to file the bolster.
Another option is to cut a strip of plastic milk
carton and use it as a shim under the tang.
I have done this on original muskets where I
wanted to keep them in original condition.


You have just passed the first level of musketry ---------- confusion!!
And, asking for help*

Jim W. 5875V
Allegheny City Guards

[Muley Gil]

Is your P-H an English built one? What is the serial number?

[Obi2winky]

Lou: Hi Lou, nice to hear from ya. I do have a teammate or two within an hour drive so I might call them up for help.

Jim: I tried the shim idea. I started out with shimming just under the tang but it was requiring an absurd amount. So I took out some shimming thickness and added some shims to underneath the breach area just proximal from the bolster. I was able to get a paper-width worth of clearance between the bolster and the lock. But now the problem is that the rest of the barrel is essentially "free floated" without the barrelbands. I was afraid that this will create really funky barrel harmonics once the barrel bands are installed so I backed off. I put a very small out of shim on the breech face and that pushed the bolster forward just enough. So with shims in 3 spots, the lock is free and the barrel still sits properly in the stock. I used regular paper as shims but will find something a bit more sturdy later on. I hope this will improve things!
76187617

Gil: I think it's the English one. My serial is 1794.

[Carolina Reb]

While you are shimming the barrel tang, take the bands off and tighten the tang screw. The muzzle should not lift out of the stock when the tang screw is tight. If it does, add more shim. If the tang itself is not well bedded and the barrel isn't laying in the stock stress free, it won't shoot well. I like 1/64 birch plywood for tang shims. It is available from Michaels craft stores, hobby shops or Aircraft Spruce & Specialty. It's thinner and more stable than milk cartons.

[Muley Gil]

"
Gil: I think it's the English one. My serial is 1794."

In my limited experience, the English made Parker-Hale muzzle loaders are very consistent. I own a 1853, a 1858 and a 1861 and all three are .577. I use a .576 Minie in each of them.

[Obi2winky]

"
Gil: I think it's the English one. My serial is 1794."

In my limited experience, the English made Parker-Hale muzzle loaders are very consistent. I own a 1853, a 1858 and a 1861 and all three are .577. I use a .576 Minie in each of them.



That's exactly why I insisted on waiting to find a low serial number P-H P58. But unfortunately, mine seems to be odd. I guess I'll find out more once I get the pin gauges in.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Is yours an authentic 1st issue, English made model? They have a Enfield Stamp that has the stamping filled with the stocks finish. The bogus ones are stamped through the finish and you can see the lighter raw wood through it. Should be using 43 gr 2f, a much smaller dia bullet, 500 gr bullet if it is.

[bobanderson]

Bullet: Once I figured out what the true bore size is for my rifle, I think I'll take Bob's advice and sample ready made bullets. That will rule out my casting skills. But I do have a question regarding the sizing of bullets. Are you able to size up? Since my bore seems to be larger than nominal, I'm not sure if there are many molds that will drop something higher than 587. Bob, is you custom base pin for the sizer made just for that purpose? I don't have a sizer since those things seem to be expensive...


Don't be afraid of casting. Once you have a reliable source for pure lead you can make all the bullets you need on a Coleman camp stove and a cast iron pot. Get your lead to about 700 degrees and watch for voids above the base pin.

Don't try bumping up your bullets. Buy the right sized mould that will cast with pure lead. There are lots of very good mould makers available to us. My first place to go would be The Moose. I guarantee he'll have what you need, and probably on the shelf. As I think more about it, I'm pretty sure you don't have a .587 bore. Since most barrels have an odd number of lands and grooves, are you SURE you didn't measure to the bottom of a groove? I had a Zoli Zouave that had a bore that eventually measured .582, but I just kept trying different moulds until I got one that threw the right size. A thinner skirt might swell up into a larger bore size, but you need to beware of the skirts coming off in the barrel. You can also get a thick skirt to swell up more than the minimum .001" by shooting heavier charges.

I have a lathe, time on my hands and no fear of producing scrap so I make my own base pins. My "design" pushes the skirt out to the required diameter and makes sure the bottom edge is the same all the way around. Seems to help me.

[Obi2winky]

Is yours an authentic 1st issue, English made model? They have a Enfield Stamp that has the stamping filled with the stocks finish. The bogus ones are stamped through the finish and you can see the lighter raw wood through it. Should be using 43 gr 2f, a much smaller dia bullet, 500 gr bullet if it is.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190205/02531d449b9a75ab7c299ac84d82642c.jpg

Mine looks like this.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Obi2winky]

Don't be afraid of casting. Once you have a reliable source for pure lead you can make all the bullets you need on a Coleman camp stove and a cast iron pot. Get your lead to about 700 degrees and watch for voids above the base pin.

Don't try bumping up your bullets. Buy the right sized mould that will cast with pure lead. There are lots of very good mould makers available to us. My first place to go would be The Moose. I guarantee he'll have what you need, and probably on the shelf. As I think more about it, I'm pretty sure you don't have a .587 bore. Since most barrels have an odd number of lands and grooves, are you SURE you didn't measure to the bottom of a groove? I had a Zoli Zouave that had a bore that eventually measured .582, but I just kept trying different moulds until I got one that threw the right size. A thinner skirt might swell up into a larger bore size, but you need to beware of the skirts coming off in the barrel. You can also get a thick skirt to swell up more than the minimum .001" by shooting heavier charges.

I have a lathe, time on my hands and no fear of producing scrap so I make my own base pins. My "design" pushes the skirt out to the required diameter and makes sure the bottom edge is the same all the way around. Seems to help me.

I tried casting for the first time this past summer. My source of lead was just some guy online. BHN was about 8 if I used the LEE hardness tester kit correctly, so figure it was soft enough. Was that a poor assumption? I read that bottom pours were not great for big haunkin bullets like minie so I got a used RCBS easy melt.

You could be totally right and I may have measured the groove. The measurement I made was on the shiny marks that were left on my 0.600 bullet (for my snider) when I gently tapped it in the muzzle. Super sketchy measurement for sure. I ordered a few pin gauges from amazon. So I'll find out wednesday!

[bobanderson]

I tried casting for the first time this past summer. My source of lead was just some guy online. BHN was about 8 if I used the LEE hardness tester kit correctly, so figure it was soft enough. Was that a poor assumption? I read that bottom pours were not great for big haunkin bullets like minie so I got a used RCBS easy melt.

You could be totally right and I may have measured the groove. The measurement I made was on the shiny marks that were left on my 0.600 bullet (for my snider) when I gently tapped it in the muzzle. Super sketchy measurement for sure. I ordered a few pin gauges from amazon. So I'll find out wednesday!

Buying lead from an unknown and therefore unreliable source will cause you all kinds of problems. If your lead is too hard you might see larger group sizes and bullets tumbling. You ever see a keyhole on a target?

I use the Lee myself and I'm not sure the 8 is soft, or rather pure, enough. As I remember, their instructions were not complete enough to read dead soft lead.

You're right about bottom pour pots. In my experience, they are OK for casting round balls up to about .54 caliber. Like I said earlier, a camp stove converted to propane and a cast iron pot that holds between 10 and 20 lbs will cast loads of quality minies. Use a casting thermometer to make sure you are at least 700 degrees before you start pouring. (Harbor Freight sells laser thermometers that should work but I've never used one. I use a Lyman dial thermometer.) Remember you only get about 14 500 grain bullets from a pound of lead. Use a bottom pour handheld ladle to keep the dross out of your bullet.

[Hal]

8 BHN is WAY too hard for minnies. I had sorted out some stick on wheel weights and was calling that "Pure" until I had properly sized minnies keyhole. A hardness test showed those stick-ons to be 6 point something, and THAT was too hard. You need to be down about 5. Order a pig of PURE lead from Roto-Metals. They are something like 60 lbs and I think they will on occasion offer it with free shipping. You will be surprised how quickly you can shoot up a pig of lead.

A very unscientific rule of thumb (As strength varies from person to person) is to try to squeeze a minnie's skirt and see if you can egg shape it. If you can, it's probably soft enough to expand into the rifling.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Yes, That is the early, 1st English made stamp with the finish in the stamping.

[JW 5875V]

Barrel removal, Remember that each time that you take the barrel out of the stock,
you will have to fire several rounds (10 - 15 ) to get the
gun barrel back into "Battery".
Then it will settle in and start to show group potential.

Jim W. 5875V
Allegheny City Guards

[Obi2winky]

Thanks for emphasizing the importance of getting pure lead. BHN 8 was definitely not a squeezable hardness. Once I have some money saved up, I'll get some. Seems like I need to stock up when I make it to nationals.

Jim: thanks for the info about settling in the barrel to the stock. I guess I won't be removing the barrel unless I want to throw half-pound worth of lead each time... haha

I received my pin gauge and it was too big (0.586) by quite a lot. So the good news is that perhaps my Enfield is not so out of spec after all. This time I ordered gauges 0.578~0.580. It won't come in til next monday... This hobby has definitely is teaching me patience.

[newrib]

Looking at your groups reminds me of when I started shooting my first Parker-Hale. My first musket was a Zoli Zouave that shoots great. I was disappointed with the groups from the Parker-Hale until I read the musket accuracy tips found on this very forum. After reworking my rifle a bit it will shoot a 2.5 inch 100 yard 5 shot group any day. First thing done was to full length glass bed, the trigger was reworked to 4pounds or so and a dovetail was added to the barrel for a tall front sight.
Best of Luck on your journey !

[bobanderson]

I received my pin gauge and it was too big (0.586) by quite a lot. So the good news is that perhaps my Enfield is not so out of spec after all. This time I ordered gauges 0.578~0.580. It won't come in til next monday... This hobby has definitely is teaching me patience.

Order a .575, .576 and a .577 right now and save yourself some time. Travers will probably let you return anything you haven't opened. You will need them in the future on other projects.

Whip them out at a skirmish and you will impress your friends, be nominated Ordnance Sergeant and probably be considered one heck of a guy.

[Obi2winky]

Pin gauges have arrived! It turns out the 578 go gauge just snugly fits in the bore. 579 will not. So this means I size my bullets to 577 correct?

Since I don't have a lot of molds to try out, no immediate access to pure lead, only outdoor accommodations for casting at my home, I think I'm going to order some bullets from Pat K (http://www.lodgewood.com/Bullets_c_7.html). The ones I thought that would be worth trying were RCBS Hodgdon 578, Parker Hale 58560, and Lyman 575213AV. Any recommendations other than that on what's available on his list?

Btw, is the Lyman 575213AV mold still sold?

[Lou Lou Lou]

.577 correct

[Rick R]

Most definitely start over with the pure lead. Don't make any decisions based on hard lead results. It can take a bit of time to get really good at casting and you want to make your decisions based on good representations of what your mold can do. You might want to get someone to cast a few for you unless you think you can make perfect rounds.
If you get air holes in the base on say 1 out of 10 you'll have air holes in the other 9 but just won't see them unless you cut them which I used to do until I gained confidence in the process. I used to use a coleman stove and an iron pot but changed to a propane turkey fryer burner. I use an open top ladle which lets me pour fast. I don't get any visible holes or wrinkles.

I used a PH 2 band for many years with great success for many years.

-Worked the lock to 3 1/2 lb pull (polished all friction surfaces, shimmed the tumbler, lightened the sear spring)
-Glass Bedded
-Dovetailed in a tall and wide front sight
-Added rear peep sight.

I used Lyman 575602 with 47.5 GR Goex FF. Lubed with Alox in the grooves and a small dab of white Lithium in the base. Balls were sized to .575 but I don't recall my actual bore size.

[Jim Barber]

Obi2, just shot you a PM.

Cheers!

Jim B.
Grove City, OH

[Obi2winky]

Obi2, just shot you a PM.

Cheers!

Jim B.
Grove City, OH

replied, and thank you very much!

[Obi2winky]

Most definitely start over with the pure lead. Don't make any decisions based on hard lead results. It can take a bit of time to get really good at casting and you want to make your decisions based on good representations of what your mold can do. You might want to get someone to cast a few for you unless you think you can make perfect rounds.
If you get air holes in the base on say 1 out of 10 you'll have air holes in the other 9 but just won't see them unless you cut them which I used to do until I gained confidence in the process. I used to use a coleman stove and an iron pot but changed to a propane turkey fryer burner. I use an open top ladle which lets me pour fast. I don't get any visible holes or wrinkles.

I used a PH 2 band for many years with great success for many years.

-Worked the lock to 3 1/2 lb pull (polished all friction surfaces, shimmed the tumbler, lightened the sear spring)
-Glass Bedded
-Dovetailed in a tall and wide front sight
-Added rear peep sight.

I used Lyman 575602 with 47.5 GR Goex FF. Lubed with Alox in the grooves and a small dab of white Lithium in the base. Balls were sized to .575 but I don't recall my actual bore size.

Would you mind sharing a few pictures of all the work you did to your rifle? I've read a lot about glass bedding, lock works and rear peep sights, but I actually haven't seen many pictures. And being a visual guy, it's hard to see what the work entails (words are hard for me...).

[Obi2winky]

It's been a while, but I wanted to update with my progress that I made with lots of help.

A team member helped me roughly sight in the rifle with a tall front sight. We used his loads which was just a Hodgdon bullet unsized at 577 with 41 gr (by weight) of 3F. It seemed to shoot alright but we ran out of light/time.

So I went out today on my own with Jim's bullets (thanks again Jim!) sized to 577 with 41 gr 3F by weight and finished sighting in. Here are the results at 25 yards.

797779787979


As you can see, there are signs of consistency. All above shots were taken without swabbing so they were all dirty bore shots except the one I marked.
I swabbed the bore once and went to 50 yards, and the results are below.

79807981

Again, not the best pattern the world has ever seen, but its showing signs of consistency. From these two targets I definitely learned 4 things:
- sunlight change really affects my elevation. I knew that, but didn't realize how much the effects were when the sun is right behind the target.
- my trigger is not very consistent. Sometimes its lighter, sometimes its heavier. It seems like the previous owner messed with the tumbler. The trigger weight resulting from the tumbler is very light and much of the weight comes from the friction between the sear and the lock plate. Going to have to do something about that.
- My lube might be too sticky. When I load the gun, I see lots of powder stick to the musket tube and not make it down the barrel. So charges are inconsistent. Not sure if 0.5~1 grain differences in charge make a big difference?
- I need more practice with the enfield stock.

[Lou Lou Lou]

That is actually great for the first time out. Congrats again

[Obi2winky]

That is actually great for the first time out. Congrats again

thanks Lou!

[Maillemaker]

I never had any luck with the Hogdon bullet in my Pedersoli P58.

As I said last year above, I get the best groups with mine with the RCBS-500M and 60 grains 2F.

As my friend Chuck Garvey used to say, "If you don't have at least a 4" group off a bench at 50 yards, you ain't got nothing."

Keep at it. Load development can take a long time.

Steve

[Michael Bodner]

For a simple lube that you can use for testing, use pure Crisco. Simple smear some into the grooves with your finger tip. Don't get overexcited about applying globs, nor removing all the excess. Just try to fill in the grooves. Do this just before you're going to shoot for a grouping. Keep them (and the tub of Crisco) out of the sun or it will melt everywhere...

However, you know you have sufficient lube IF your rounds load relatively easy after you have been shooting (and between cleanings). Of you're pounding the ramrod of smacking the bullet down with the rod, then you don't have enough lube. If they go down 'easyish' then you do have enough lube. Be advised that you may still want to swab the barrel with 1-2 wet patches and 2-3 dry patches about every 10 shots, however. If you do clean, be sure to fire off just a cap or two before you load to ensure that the flash channel is clear. Point the barrel into the grass when you do this and be sure you see the grass/dirt move. That way you know the flash channel did not become clogged or wet while cleaning.

[PoorJack]

I never had any luck with the Hogdon bullet in my Pedersoli P58.

As I said last year above, I get the best groups with mine with the RCBS-500M and 60 grains 2F.

As my friend Chuck Garvey used to say, "If you don't have at least a 4" group off a bench at 50 yards, you ain't got nothing."

Keep at it. Load development can take a long time.

Steve


Ditto on the Hogdon until..........this last weekend

The Hogdon with beeswax/lard lube in my Parker Hale is a sub 2moa load. In my Colt Contract, not so much, more like 10+moa. Fast forward to this week, I tested the concoction of beeswax/Mobil1 for lube again, with minies known to shoot good in the Colt and others that were useless. Well, the Rapine Trashcan that is a tack driver in my Colt with Lens Lube, opened up to about 4in at 50. The Lee improved minie was still all over the place. The Lyman 580213 shot into a very interesting group, 4in high but less than 1in wide, pretty much a vertical line of bullet holes. The Hogdon went from nogo to a 4in group with several minies stacking into single holes. One hole had 3 minies through it and yeah, I was watching through the spotting scope as my shooting buddy was pulling the trigger. Now all this ammo was pretty much thrown together for a quickie testing but the results mean the Hogdon and Lyman need some development work and they show promise. Before it gets mentioned, the bore in the Colt is 580 and minies were sized to 579.

As for Crisco- I tested it head to head with Lard and Lard won every time. In researching this on a BP cart forum and another muzzle loading forum, there were references to accuracy falling off after Crisco changed the formula to get rid of the blood mud part. There were similar references to Lard as being the go to sub to solve this issue so I decided to test head to head with known tack drivers in my safe- my Parker Hale and musketoon. In both guns, when crisco was used, groups opened up by about an inch+. It was repeatable so I'm convinced, lard not crisco for best accuracy. Except there are some guns that any combination of lard/crisco/beeswax just won't perform, my Colts being examples. They seem to prefer Lens with the Rapine trashcan, that is until this weekend. The testing was with the Lee version of the trashcan and after looking at the results, I opted to try the Hogdon with this combo. The results were even more striking. The hogdon in my guns was about a 4+moa load with Crisco, but with the lard, sub 2moa. Not saying Crisco won't work for you, but rather you have to test in your gun and minie.

8000
Colt with Rapine at 50yds

8001
Parker Hale Hogdon- beeswax/lard 50yd 4 7 shots, 1 called flyer

[Obi2winky]

For a simple lube that you can use for testing, use pure Crisco. Simple smear some into the grooves with your finger tip. Don't get overexcited about applying globs, nor removing all the excess. Just try to fill in the grooves. Do this just before you're going to shoot for a grouping. Keep them (and the tub of Crisco) out of the sun or it will melt everywhere...

However, you know you have sufficient lube IF your rounds load relatively easy after you have been shooting (and between cleanings). Of you're pounding the ramrod of smacking the bullet down with the rod, then you don't have enough lube. If they go down 'easyish' then you do have enough lube. Be advised that you may still want to swab the barrel with 1-2 wet patches and 2-3 dry patches about every 10 shots, however. If you do clean, be sure to fire off just a cap or two before you load to ensure that the flash channel is clear. Point the barrel into the grass when you do this and be sure you see the grass/dirt move. That way you know the flash channel did not become clogged or wet while cleaning.


My bore size is 0.579 so I got my self a 578 and 577 sizer. With 577 I can load smoothly almost endlessly with current lube. When I swab the bore, the fouling comes out pretty wet. Maybe too much lube? Once I'm done with my current batch of beeswax+olive oil, I'm going to try the recipe my commander uses (beezwax, neatsfoot oil and neutrogena soap). I hear that isn't as messy and less temp. dependent.

[Obi2winky]

great shooting! When you say Parker Hale, is it the P53 or P58?


Ditto on the Hogdon until..........this last weekend

The Hogdon with beeswax/lard lube in my Parker Hale is a sub 2moa load. In my Colt Contract, not so much, more like 10+moa. Fast forward to this week, I tested the concoction of beeswax/Mobil1 for lube again, with minies known to shoot good in the Colt and others that were useless. Well, the Rapine Trashcan that is a tack driver in my Colt with Lens Lube, opened up to about 4in at 50. The Lee improved minie was still all over the place. The Lyman 580213 shot into a very interesting group, 4in high but less than 1in wide, pretty much a vertical line of bullet holes. The Hogdon went from nogo to a 4in group with several minies stacking into single holes. One hole had 3 minies through it and yeah, I was watching through the spotting scope as my shooting buddy was pulling the trigger. Now all this ammo was pretty much thrown together for a quickie testing but the results mean the Hogdon and Lyman need some development work and they show promise. Before it gets mentioned, the bore in the Colt is 580 and minies were sized to 579.

As for Crisco- I tested it head to head with Lard and Lard won every time. In researching this on a BP cart forum and another muzzle loading forum, there were references to accuracy falling off after Crisco changed the formula to get rid of the blood mud part. There were similar references to Lard as being the go to sub to solve this issue so I decided to test head to head with known tack drivers in my safe- my Parker Hale and musketoon. In both guns, when crisco was used, groups opened up by about an inch+. It was repeatable so I'm convinced, lard not crisco for best accuracy. Except there are some guns that any combination of lard/crisco/beeswax just won't perform, my Colts being examples. They seem to prefer Lens with the Rapine trashcan, that is until this weekend. The testing was with the Lee version of the trashcan and after looking at the results, I opted to try the Hogdon with this combo. The results were even more striking. The hogdon in my guns was about a 4+moa load with Crisco, but with the lard, sub 2moa. Not saying Crisco won't work for you, but rather you have to test in your gun and minie.

8000
Colt with Rapine at 50yds

8001
Parker Hale Hogdon- beeswax/lard 50yd 4 7 shots, 1 called flyer

[Southron Sr.]

I have been shooting in the N-SSA for around 50 years now and over those years, I have owned four or five P-H Naval Rifles.

MY EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN that all P-H Naval Rifles come from the factory with a stock that is inletted oversize for the barrel. This means that when the arm is fired, the barrel literally "flops" around in the stock. This is not nice for accuracy.

The BEST way to cure this is to simply glass bed the breech. This is legal under N-SSA rules and will do wonders for your group size. Find someone who is competent to glass bed the breech of your rifle.

IDEALLY you want a 3.5 to 4 Pound Trigger Pull weight. As long as your Trigger Pull is OVER 3 Pounds, yu are "N-SSA Legal.'

Here is a really good tutorial on how to reduce your Trigger Pull:

http://www.nwtskirmisher.com/useful-locks.shtml

GOOD LUCK!

[Obi2winky]

I have been shooting in the N-SSA for around 50 years now and over those years, I have owned four or five P-H Naval Rifles.

MY EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN that all P-H Naval Rifles come from the factory with a stock that is inletted oversize for the barrel. This means that when the arm is fired, the barrel literally "flops" around in the stock. This is not nice for accuracy.

The BEST way to cure this is to simply glass bed the breech. This is legal under N-SSA rules and will do wonders for your group size. Find someone who is competent to glass bed the breech of your rifle.

IDEALLY you want a 3.5 to 4 Pound Trigger Pull weight. As long as your Trigger Pull is OVER 3 Pounds, yu are "N-SSA Legal.'

Here is a really good tutorial on how to reduce your Trigger Pull:

http://www.nwtskirmisher.com/useful-locks.shtml

GOOD LUCK!

My teammate recommended the same thing; glass bedding. Currently I just have a few layers of paper shimming at the breach. I've been rushing to get the rifle sighted in for the April skirmish, but once that's over I'll see if someone can help me with that.

I did study the same website you recommend. But my problem is that the tumbler has already been messed with and in the wrong way. The fullcock notch doesn't have a good negative engagement. It had a mushy and light trigger (2 lbs ish). I took a dremmel and tried to add the correct angle in and now its about 5 lbs. I shoot Highpower and the rule is min of 4.5 lbs, so I have it set to 5lbs on my AR. So I'm actually pretty comfortable at the weight range.

Btw, if anyone knows of a good source of ParkerHale compatible enfield parts, please let me know!

[geezmo]

Obi,

First piece of advice is don't rush, even if you're going to a shoot at the end of the month. It is always harder to unfix bad fixes.

Second piece of advice is listen to Southron Sr. Most people I know who shoot Parker Hales well have glass bedded them.

Third piece of advice, before you do anything more read this article by Jeff Tanner (now deceased, but his son James is continuing the business) from England. I wouldn't do any filing on the snail or bolster (I think he covers that), I'd go right to the bedding. You can buy Acraglas from Brownells. Don't use the plain acraglas, it is very fluid and hard to control. I've had good results with Acraglas Gel. It's a stiffer consistency, easy to mix and spread.

http://www.ballmoulds.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/577e.pdf

Ask your teammates, have any of them done any of this work?

Good luck,
Barry Selzner

[PoorJack]

Obi-

My PH is a P58 two band. It's also a 1st Gen assembled in Birmingham. With beeswax/lard, 575 Hogdon, 42gr 3f Old Eynsford, RWS caps, you see what it can do.

Here's the group I got with beeswax/mobil1 with the Lyman 580213. Note the width of the group but most bullets are at the bottom.

8032

[PoorJack]

Here's the Hogdon group with beeswax/mobil1. Note the two clusters in the group.

8033

[Maillemaker]

Is there a particular kind of lard to look for or will any commercial lard do?

Steve

[PoorJack]

Steve-

I got cheap unsalted lard from the grocery store. It's in the aisle with Crisco and is probably right next to it on the shelf. I've used it 50/50 with beeswax. I'd imagine it'll get soft and runny in the heat down there so handle accordingly. To deal with heat issues, I got a small lunch box size cooler at a yard sale to keep the ammo in. In hot weather, I use a small ice pack to keep the ammo cool. In doing so, my ammo is always at the same temperature regardless of ambient conditions. I'm thinking it may remove, or at least hold constant, one variable.

[Eggman]

Is there a particular kind of lard to look for or will any commercial lard do?

Steve
Razorback lard is considered the best. It contains a higher content of acorn sap.