Bullet weight

[WBR10654]

So I was at the Last Chance in Capron and we got on to a conversation about bullet weights for Mayand.

My recooection of the comment was that a one or two Grain difference between butlles made a lot of difference.

Me? I am not convinced this is very important for a Maynard, considering all of the other variables, but I do see the importance of loading consistently.

BUT this is not really about the Maynard but about a Ballard and the 340 Grain Bullet.

I made up about 500 recently and since I only shoot 16 Grains of 3f, it is an original receiver.

I did this in a couple different sessions and because of the conversation decided to check the bullet weights.

I had a 3.5 grain Spread between Bullet starting at about 355.0 to 384.5.

So I grouped them as such because this is how the majority of them fell out during the first pass.

Weight Count(est)
236.0 150
236.8 150
237.0 150
337.5 50
237.8 50 (most of the other weights are with in a few POINT but I had lots of 237.8s exactly)
238.1 50

A fifth of the bullets were below 236.0 and I am considering a second pass to get those around 235.8 because there were buku...

QUESTIONS:

So your opinion on these bullet weights and a Ballard with a 16 grain charge is what?

What is your opinion on the effect on bullet weights on Black Powder Cartridges?

[Lou Lou Lou]

I shooter a 200 grain bullet in a 44-40 Ballard with 16 grains of FFFg Goex. Accuracy is excellent

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, Lou:

I was going to question the 16 grains as light (44-40gr?) or that 16 imparted a low enough velocity that maybe his weight range would produce verticals at 100.

Plus/minus 2gr hasn't hurt me with the 54/58 minies, but that 230 44 is relatively light.

Thanks, PAPA,

Kevin

[Lou Lou Lou]

Folks use 249 grain Silouette bullets in Henry’s. Too heavy for Ballard in my opinion.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Should be 240

[bobanderson]

I use Lyman 427098 in my Henry. Casts at about 205 grains as I recall. Won several golds with it in Individuals.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

Lou and Bob:

Within what as-cast 44 bullet weight range are you comfortable, please?

Tx,

Kevin

[Hal]

For what it's worth, I go plus or minus 1/2 of 1% on weight. In other words, I take the mean weight, multiply by .995 and also 1.005. I keep anything between those two numbers. For .30 cal rifles, this ends up being a smaller range 'grain-wise' than for say a .58 cal minie, but the percentage of the mean weight is the same. So if I was averaging 237.0, I would keep anything between 235.8 and 238.2.

And there are those who say it doesn't matter and is a waste of time weighing them to start with. They may be right, but I weigh them anyway.

[Lou Lou Lou]

I haven’t been weighing them, cast and shoot

[ms3635v]

I have been shooting the same original Second Model Maynard since 1985. I shoot a 385 grain bullet in full capacity cases with 35 grains of 3F and it is extremely accurate. I cast them, size them and shoot them, I don't weigh them and separate by weights. The original load for the Maynard was a 343 grain bullet with 41 grains of powder. The bullet diameters ranged from .515" to .523" with weights ranging from 338 to 499 grains.

[WBR10654]

Thanks, Lou:

I was going to question the 16 grains as light (44-40gr?) or that 16 imparted a low enough velocity that maybe his weight range would produce verticals at 100.

Plus/minus 2gr hasn't hurt me with the 54/58 minies, but that 230 44 is relatively light.

Thanks, PAPA,

Kevin


The light loads for Ballards are to protect the Cast Iron Receiver.

Cast iron get brittle with age and the Ballards have a design flaw that put a lot of the pressure from the recoil in a sopt that can cause it to crack.

As to is that to light a charge? Well Paul Davies shot a 98 at 100 yards with his loaded at 16 Grains

Fred Lewis recommends 18 grains.

BUT I am interested checking out a lighter bullet if these experiments in weighting the bullets does not pan out.

[Eggman]

I have been shooting the same original Second Model Maynard since 1985. I shoot a 385 grain bullet in full capacity cases with 35 grains of 3F and it is extremely accurate. I cast them, size them and shoot them, I don't weigh them and separate by weights. The original load for the Maynard was a 343 grain bullet with 41 grains of powder. The bullet diameters ranged from .515" to .523" with weights ranging from 338 to 499 grains.

28 grains.

[WBR10654]

Thanks, I like the idea even though I do not know if it is VALID, but it is a theory at a minimum and that is what I am looking for.

I never have done this for my Musket .579 Hodgeon or Carbine .518 Maynard Bullet but I have been shooting so SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE with the Ballard that I am trying to figure out why.

My musket will hit a Pidgeon off the bench at 100 yards and since there is so much else going one when pouring powder I don't bother checking them.

BUT with only 16 Grains for a 236 to 238 grain bullet,,,, I was thinking this might be my problem.

That is why I am trying this experiment.

I loaded 100 of the 236, mostly because I don't have a small storage for small amounts, so I will load them and mark them.

Next I am going to do the 237s (50 Each) and 238s (50 each)

That should give me a good base line when I go to the range and then I will KNOW the answer.

BUT, it does not hurt to ask.

DPB







For what it's worth, I go plus or minus 1/2 of 1% on weight. In other words, I take the mean weight, multiply by .995 and also 1.005. I keep anything between those two numbers. For .30 cal rifles, this ends up being a smaller range 'grain-wise' than for say a .58 cal minie, but the percentage of the mean weight is the same. So if I was averaging 237.0, I would keep anything between 235.8 and 238.2.

And there are those who say it doesn't matter and is a waste of time weighing them to start with. They may be right, but I weigh them anyway.

[WBR10654]

I shooter a 200 grain bullet in a 44-40 Ballard with 16 grains of FFFg Goex. Accuracy is excellent

So,

What Bullet are you shooting?

I am shooting one of O-zee-acts (forgive the spelling I cannot remember if how to spell his name Mike Osiack) Brass Molds.

It is the three cavity.

I have his Maynard/Smith four cavity mold, it turns them out fast,,, had it for well over ten years, had him recondition it once recently.


DPB

[Lou Lou Lou]

Saeco mold. Have to dig it out for model number

[Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101]

Hal has it right. Everything we do has some effect, it's just a question of whether it has enough of an effect to matter. I weigh my bullets to eliminate those that are outside of the acceptable range Hal talks about. I'm not sure a couple grains difference matters that big of a difference shooting at 50 yards. But it's one variable I choose to reduce. Some of the nicest looking bullets have voids in them that you can't see.

I was Fire Direction Control Chief in an Army artillery unit, and we did pay attention to projectile weight. When you're shooting miles, it does make a difference. On page 3-2 of FM 6-40 http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/FM6-40%2884%29.pdf they talk about factors that affect muzzle velocity, and bullet weight is one of them.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Saeco by Redding, 420-4EB
.

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[Hal]

When I weigh them, I find MANY more light ones than heavy ones. Sometimes I have none that are so heavy I toss them out, but I almost always have some that are lighter than my self-imposed acceptable range. I have a friend that told me to shoot them one time and said he didn't believe I would ever see a difference. He may be right, but I've yet to try his experiment. The last ones I cast had two that were significantly heavier. They were a hollow base and I had failed to get the core pin properly placed in the mould. I forget how heavy they were, but something like 10 grains, as I recall. Of the light ones I usually get, they are seldom more than 3-4 grains outside my range which I detailed above.

[jonk]

Apples and oranges but...

I shoot 10 grains of 3f in my .44 1863 revolver. With filler. It likes a slow bullet and light charge. If I do my part it will break 6/6 pigeons. I rarely DO my job with revolver, but that's the idiot behind the trigger missing. I know the gun will keep them all in the 9 ring or better from a rest so I know that it likes that charge fine.

I shoot 40 gr in my 1873 trapdoor. Also with filler. If your math is a little iffy that means I am shooting 30 grains under the standard service charge. It will tear out a bullseye at 50 yards all day and is good enough with this weak load to knock over gongs out to 300 yards on a silhouette course.

Had a guy on the line shooting 10 grains out of his smith with filler and he was doing damned good. Pop... wait for it... break.

Point being: shoot what your gun likes, so long as it is safe.

As to weighing bullets... you can't go wrong by doing so. I don't bother honestly. My hit time with un weighed bullets and weighed bullets is exactly the same. Sometimes I do weigh for paper shooting on the theory that a 9 might be a 10 if all the bullets weigh close to the same, but that's as far as I go with it. A 3 MOA load is perfectly fine for what we are doing on breakables.

[bobanderson]

Sorting by weight is more about group size, not accuracy. A mixed lot of weights will cause a larger group, but still mostly centered on your point of aim as long as your bullet is the correct length and weight for the rifling twist of your barrel. Read up on the Greenhill tables, which were developed during the black powder cartridge era.

Dr. Franklin Mann, in The Bullet's Flight, proved that variations in accuracy are mostly caused by deformities in the base of the bullet. He devoted a lot of research where he was looking for what causes a flyer in a group. If you've never read it, I'd recommend it.

With all that said, I still don't think my offhand skill level is worth the extra work to weigh and sort.

[WBR10654]

Hal has it right. Everything we do has some effect, it's just a question of whether it has enough of an effect to matter. I weigh my bullets to eliminate those that are outside of the acceptable range Hal talks about. I'm not sure a couple grains difference matters that big of a difference shooting at 50 yards. But it's one variable I choose to reduce. Some of the nicest looking bullets have voids in them that you can't see.

I was Fire Direction Control Chief in an Army artillery unit, and we did pay attention to projectile weight. When you're shooting miles, it does make a difference. On page 3-2 of FM 6-40 http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/FM6-40%2884%29.pdf they talk about factors that affect muzzle velocity, and bullet weight is one of them.

81 MM Mortar Platoon Leader in the 82nd...

[efritz]

Dave,
if you’re talking about the 340 gr. Bullet that Moosemolds mould puts out. It’s the bullet that I had him make a mould for me. I shoot a Ballard rifle chambered in 45LC. Let’s say my middle weight of the pack is 345gr. I will keep everything 343-347grs. But I will use them starting with lightest first. By the end of the skirmish year I’m into the heaviest. I’m using 22gr 1 1/2 Swiss. No filler. I haven’t noticed any splitting of receiver. The 1 1/2 Swiss burns slower so pressures/recoil haven’t damaged receiver.