Old white nylon Smith cases

[PoorJack]

Title says it. I'm looking for a couple of the old nylon cases with the brass riveted flash hole to make copies. I'll be glad to return them after I get a set of measurements. PM for contact info.

[PoorJack]

Bump back into digital consciousness.

Anybody?

[BADSHOT]

I have some, but mine do not have the brass inserts, these were sold in the late 70's early 80's , I can still see these two fellas turning them down on a small table lathe right on Sutlers row. I always thought these were the best Smith tubes ever made, I was able to get some real accuracy with these tubes.

[RaiderANV]

Always thought they were the best ever also. At some point late in the game they started putting a brass rivet in the bottom to keep from burning out.

[PoorJack]

I'm going to take a crack at making some on a mini lathe and would like to get some measurements off them and maybe find out what material they're made from. That's why I'd like to get my hands on some.

[Charlie Hahn]

The material is either 6/6 or 6/12 Nylon

[cwbulletman]

I have some. Send me your address to my email address cwbulletman@aol.com

[Hal]

This is interesting. I have a lathe as well, but can't claim to be a machinist. Turning them from stock could be an advantage, as I can't seem to make the black injection molded ones last more than 5-6 shots without them cracking. I truly believe the problem with the injection molded ones is the manufacturer putting too much "re-grind" back into the mix. We used to spec no more than 10% re-grind, the other 90% being virgin material. Too much re-grind causes brittleness. Not brittle like glass, but will produce a plastic part that won't take a lot of stretching or flexing before it breaks.

[John Holland]

Way back in the original development of the "Black Plastic Smith Tube", by Roy Shaw (deceased), there was no re-grind used in the production. Those tubes were, and will remain, the best ever produced. I say this from first hand experience because I was one of the people doing the testing for Roy.

[0556V]

Title says it. I'm looking for a couple of the old nylon cases with the brass riveted flash hole to make copies. I'll be glad to return them after I get a set of measurements. PM for contact info.
I have some if you need them also mine have the brass rivets, if you still need them I will give them to you send me your address. fugate.charles@gmail.com is my email.

[CAGerringer]

I would gladly pay extra for new tubes with 0% regrind.

Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[Hal]

Most of us would.

I can't speak for the current manufacturer. I have no idea what or where they are doing what or why. And sometimes a vendor is not aware of what the actual manufacturer of an item is doing.

I say that to say this. I used to work for a large manufacturer of walk behind lawn mowers. We sourced a lot of stuff from China. They would send us samples to use in testing. We would test them. They would fail. We would reject them. They would send us more samples. Sometimes this went on for 3-4 iterations. Finally, they would send us some that would pass testing. We would approve them and put the parts into production. Next thing you know, parts are breaking in the field and even during installation on the assembly line. Our Chinese supplier was sending us all the ones he made early on rather than scrapping them when they were rejected.

Not that we were much better. In my tenure there, we cheapened up everything we could to the point the quality really suffered. What used to have three bolts holding it on, now only had 2. Why? To save a bolt. What's a bolt cost? Two cent maybe. I'd rather pay an extra 2 cent and have a more sturdy product. But I don't have that option because the manufacturer chose to pocket the 2 cent times two bolts per mower times 26,000 mowers per day. That's $1040 a day they get to keep and couldn't care less that I would be willing to pay an extra $.02 for a lawn mower. And in a way, I was paying the extra $.02. It's not like they lowered the price when they took out the two bolts. They just pocketed the money. And I don't have the option of buying the more sturdy product even if I were willing to pay extra.

Now don't get me wrong. I have no idea if this is applies to Smith tubes, and I'm not saying it does. I'm not bashing anyone.

[762x51]

I was messing around this afternoon and decided to do this drawing that some of you may find useful.

Orin

7436

[toot]

it takes a realy lot of shootings to burn out the hole in the bottom, i have both white and black nylon and have shot them for years and like the energizer bunny they still keep on going. the rear back part of them gets a little burn marks so i gently run them on my belt sander and true them up and make them smooth.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, Orin and thanks for the helpful drawing:

When I began fitting metal cases to a mint, unfired Smith a couple of our respected gray beards shared that Smith BORES and CHAMBERS varied over production by perhaps three makers and either the foil wrap or rubber case. Hmmm.

Mine takes custom cases that match all of your dimensions except the OAL in the drawing.

Mine will not close on an EMPTY case 1.415" long in a totally clean chamber with bright shoulder.
The cases would allow action rotation past the rear outside case corner, but the last 1/4" of movement was impeded by the back, face of the case. The top spring latch was 1/8" shy of fitting over the stud on the top of the receiver.

I crept up on my max OAL of 1.412" using layers of thin Scotch tape.

Maybe plastic ones at 1.415" will squeeze in.

EVERYTHING Bruce Cobb shared about Smiths helped me with mine.

Thanks,
Kevin Tinny

[762x51]

Hi Kevin,

After reading your note I felt that I must have made an error in my measurements so I got out 25 cases and measured the 3 most important exterior dimensions.
The interior dimensions are +/- 0.002" and are, I'm sure, based in just how close the tolerance of the drills that were used were.

Please let me know if you see an error in the drawing.

Orin

7438

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, again, Orin:

Thanks for double-checking your metallic case dimensions.
As I indicated, yours are fine.
It is just that I found my tight Smith required a case OAL of roughly 1.412" to close.

I was tipped by Bruce Cobb to variations in chambers (and bores) depending upon who built them, when they were built and for which cartridge CASE. Bores are another issue.

This is recounted by Wm. B. Edwards on page 108 of CIVIL WAR GUNS.
He writes about two patterns of Smiths that differ in their chambers, one for the early rubber case and one for the later wrapped foil case, which foil case was thinner and had a smaller OD chamber. No dimensions of the cases are provided.

When beginning with my Smith, I measured metallic cases from team mates, sutlers and even some custom made stainless ones. Relative to your case OAL of 1.415", they ranged from 1.400" to 1.520". Wow!

So, I used the Scotch Tape method whereby a 1/4" disk of it was placed in the center of the rear face over the flash hole. Progressive layers and OAL measurements to the pount of not closing got me to 1.412".

So, I agree with your dim's. Others may have looser lockups that take different lengths.
I have seen and shot some that were REALLY LOOSE at the hinge, but still ARE medal winners.

Seems to me that it pays to get a sample case or two and test OAL if concerned.

Lou Ruggerio texted me to increase the radius on a test case to make sure THE RADIUS is not involved.
I will do this early next week and report.

Merry and Happy,
Kevin Tinny

[PoorJack]

So for an update.

Thanks to those supplying a few of the nylon cases to measure and compare to the metal ones. I've also gotten a few of the aluminum ones as well.

One thing that I find different about the nylon cases from the start is some lack the rebate inside to control bullet seating depth and powder capacity. They're straight drilled all the way down to the flash hole. Others have the rebate for reduced powder like the current crop of injection molded ones. I'd love to hear from the users how they shoot if you guys have experience with both. A difference seen on metal cases, my brass ones do have some variance but the main difference between them and the aluminum is the depth of the rebate resulting in differing COAL, meaning the aluminum ones will put the bullet into the rifling deeper than the brass ones. Another difference is a chamfer on the flash hole of the aluminum ones and the flash hole is smaller.

So now I'm waiting for a break in the weather to get to the range to test the aluminum v brass v nylon cases for accuracy. I've made a batch of several bullet types that are checked for size and mass. Each bullet type is +-.5gr of a nominal mass and cast from the same pot at the same time to hold that variable constant. Powder charge will be 27gr 3f Old Eynsford, lube will be Lens as that's what's worked fairly well in both of my Smiths although that might be revisited depending on results.