Lorenz rifle advice

[wcameron]

I just bought the new Pedersoli type 2 Lorenz rifled musket. I need help and advice on bullets selection. I've tried old style Minie with many powders and charges but no good groups. I read a couple of Don Dixson posts on line but didn't quite get the specifics I needed. Any help here would greatly appreciated.

[Mike McDaniel]

What size bullet? The Pedersolis should be .547, meaning you need a .546 bullet.

[hobbler]

Lap out a Lyman #54 minie to be a few thousandths bigger?

Or you could send a mold off to have it enlarged by precision grinding to be exactly the size you want.
If you find a used mold at the right price and send it off to be altered then it actually is no more expensive than having one made. And if you already have the mold it's a real good way to go.
Have done that with oversized bores, .58 and .69.

[wcameron]

I already have a .548 Moose old style Minie mould and lubersizer. Even though the mould works fine etc. I'm convinced the Minie is not for this rifle. The original bullets we're more like a Wilkenson but paper patched. Since we can't use PP bullets I need input on a better bullet design. Thanks guys.

[Southron Sr.]

Pedersoli makes a special mould for their Lorenz. Suggest you contact a Pedersoli distributor and get one of those moulds. You need their .547 bullet mould.

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-accessorio.asp/l_en/idpr_181/pre_0/accessories-professional-bullet-moulds-block-with-1-cavity--long-bullet-for-muzzleloading.html

[Don Dixon]

wcameron,

The Austrian Army ordnance specification for Muster 1854 System Lorenz rifles was essentially .547inches/13.8 mm. Pedersoli has made their Muster 1854, Type II, reproduction rifle in that caliber. Having said that, I think that you have essentially two choices for bullet moulds, both from Pedrsoli:

Pedersoli makes a .547 Minie style mould - USA 302-547 - for their Muster 1857 Württembergischen reproduction rifles. I've tried it, and it works quite well in original .547 Muster 1854 rifles.

Pedersoli also says they make a System Lorenz mould - USA 303-547 Lorenz - to accompany their reproduction Lorenz [its posted in their on-line catalog]. I haven't had a chance to shoot it, and I haven't been able to find any photos or drawings of the resulting bullet. So, I don't know if is a full sized .547 bullet, or one that they intend to be shot paper patched as was the original. I also don't know if it has one or two compression groves. From taking with people when Pedersoli's reproduction project was in the design stages, I am under the impression that the mould was designed to be full sized and shot without a patch.

If you get the second mould, and it produces a full sized compression bullet intended to be shot without a patch, please see my suggestions on how to load and shoot compression bullets of Ritter von Lorenz's design - incorrectly called "Wilkinson" bullets - which were posted earlier on this site.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[wcameron]

Hi Don,
I was hoping you'd see my question. I've read several of your posts concerning this rifle and it's bullets on other sites. My confusion is how to lube the compression type bullet. I assume you don't put lube in the compression grooves, correct?
Dixie Gun works has a double compression groove bullet they claim is for this rifle. Moose also has a single groove bullet they say is for this rifle also. I've been trying to contact Moose for over a week now with no response. Thanks for your imput,. Wayne

[wcameron]

Don,
The Dixie Gun Lorenz mould is CA1410. Let me know what you think. The Moose Lorenz mould is not on their website but they sent me pictures of it with bullets about a month ago. I don't know how to get the pictures on this thread.

Wayne
1st Stuart Horse Artillery

[jrexrode]

I purchased one of Moose's .548 Wilkinson moulds at this past Fall Nationals and have tried it in a Jaegerstutzen with an original bore and it shoots superbly.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[wcameron]

Thanks for that info about the Moose mould. I've been trying to contact Moose to get one but they haven't responded.

[Don Dixon]

wcameron,

I used the forum's search engine for information on Lorenz bullets, and was not particularly happy with the results. Go to a thread entitled "Minie Ball Thoughts" started by Poor Jack on 12/14/2017. I think that my posts on that thread will give you the information you need on shooting System Lorenz compression bullets. A synopsis:

Sizing: .001 - .002 inches under bore diameter. .001 is better. Measure the bore with machinist's plug gauges, not with a caliper. Lorenz's design is quite good, but it is very sensitive to fit of bullet to bore.

Lubrication: Very soft lube. I like MCM. Lubricate very lightly. One quick swish of the base of the bullet through melted lube. DON'T USE A LUBRICIZER. IF YOU FILL THE COMPRESSION GROOVE(S), THE BULLET CANNOT COMPRESS AND WILL SHOOT INACCURATELY, as in the bullets will go into the target sideways.

Powder: Use enough to compress the bullet under all weather conditions. A minimum of 45 grs of Swiss FFFg is my load in my guns, or at least 50 grs of GOEX FFFg. Swiss is MUCH cleaner and performs better. You my need more with the Pedersoli and whatever bullet you choose. its unlikely you will need less.

Loading: Push the bullet firmly down on the powder. Rely on the explosion of the powder to compress the bullet. Maybe one light tap of the ramrod. You don't need to beat on it with the ramrod like one sees some shooters do with their Minies. All that does is deform the bullet.

If your rifle has a good bore and you do the above, you can shoot all day without having to brush the bore, since the Lorenz bullet is very effective at scrapping fouling out of the bore. Think of the Williams cleaner bullet , which in many respects is a comparable design.

Good luck.

Don

[Ron The Old Reb]

I have a Lorenz Jagerstutzen. A long with the Wilkinson bullet I have a Lyman 542425 Mine mold that will shoot one raged hole at 50yds off the bench with 43 gr. of Goex and sized to 537.

[Don Dixon]

Don,
The Dixie Gun Lorenz mould is CA1410. Let me know what you think. The Moose Lorenz mould is not on their website but they sent me pictures of it with bullets about a month ago. I don't know how to get the pictures on this thread.

Wayne
1st Stuart Horse Artillery

Wayne,

I looked at Dixie's web site for the CA1410 mould. Based upon the photos, its Pedersoli's copy of Lorenz's two compression groove military bullet for the Muster 1854 family of arms (Type I and II infantry rifles, Jägerstutzen, Dornstutzen, Extra Corps carbine, and Muster 1860 pistol). My impression is that properly sized it should shoot well in any original version of those weapons so long as the bore is close to the k.k. Army's .547 ordnance standard and you load it properly. It looks as though the information I had heard about what Pedersoli was going to do was correct.

Now, on to Dixie's catalogue description, which states that the resulting bullet has "two deep grease grooves." That would imply to people unfamiliar with these guns that you fill the grooves up with grease. If you do that, the bullet won't shoot worth s**t. See my comments above and elsewhere in this forum. Does anyone at Dixie have a clue? But then, they also recommend patched round ball in Civil War reproduction muskets.

I had seen a .547-.550 single compression groove bullet at Moose's booth at the fall national, but then they didn't have it on their web site, so I didn't know if they had decided to go into full production. When Greg Edington had Lee produce moulds for his "Wilkinson" (read Lorenz) inspired designs, I bought, or was given for test, one and two compression groove .54 and .58 caliber moulds. I shoot the .58 caliber single compression groove "picket" bullets in my Pattern 1858 Parker Hale reproduction rifle and my reproduction Richmond carbine, and the .54 caliber single compression groove "picket" bullet in my reproduction Jägerstutzen, in N-SSA competition. They are quite accurate at 50 and 100 yards. If I was going to shoot in competition at longer ranges, I would definitely use the two compression groove bullet.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[Don Dixon]

I have a Lorenz Jagerstutzen. A long with the Wilkinson bullet I have a Lyman 542425 Mine mold that will shoot one raged hole at 50yds off the bench with 43 gr. of Goex and sized to 537.

Ron,

I think you're talking about Dixie's reproduction Jägerstutzen ??? which has a .540 bore. The Pedersoli Muster 1854 Type II reproduction has a .547 bore, as do the original ordnance standard Muster 1854 weapons. The reason why the System Lorenz rifles were considered inaccurate in Federal and Confederate service was that the Federal and Confederate ordnance establishment thought that they could feed them U.S. standard .54 caliber ammunition, which was sized to .537 and which was at least .01 under bore diameter.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[wcameron]

Hi guys,
I had Tom Crone measure my new Pedersoli Lorenzs bore today. It came in at .548(5) not 547 as advertised! Moose Moulds is sending me their new Wilkenson Lorenz double cavity mould tomorrow. Tom is making me a 547 sizer so when I get everything set up I hope to come up with some decent groups.
All your imput has been encouraging and helpful, thanks.

[Don Dixon]

I had Tom Crone measure my new Pedersoli Lorenzs bore today. It came in at .548(5) not 547 as advertised!

That's why I suggested that you measure it with machinist's plug gauges. None of the this stuff is exactly on spec. Closer than the originals, but....

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[ms3635v]

I have been using a Moose Moulds Wilkinson for six years now in my skirmish rifle. For this bullet to shoot well it has to be .001" under bore size and the lead has to be soft. A close fit ensures the bullet will engage the rifling properly. Also, as has already been stated, the Wilkinson was originally used with a paper patch, but the way I lube the Wilkinsons that I use is to dip the base only in lube and use a soft lube like MCM (also Jack Venskoske makes an excellent lube that works well with the Wilkinson). The Wilkinsons still work if some lube gets on top of the base, however, if too much lube gets into the "compression" groove that causes the bullet to expand, the compression does not become complete, causing the bullet to not engage the rifling properly resulting in fliers. My skirmish rifle shoots exceptionally well with 40 grains of 3F.