What Is Your Favorite Brand of Black Powder and Why?

[Southron Sr.]

So which brand of black powder (Goex, Schutzen, Swiss, Kik, Diamondback, etc.,) is your favorite?

WHY is it your favorite brand???

Inquiring minds want to know....Please post your reply below.

THANKS!!!!

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Goex

Been using it for decades, its a good, reliable powder.


I do however use Swiss for SB and Revolver, as it burns cleaner.

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

Olde Eynsford. Clean, powerful and, if you know where to buy, Not really expensive. Don't ask, it's a secret.

Greg

[Don Dixon]

When I joined the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team in 2003 I knew that we would be traveling overseas, so I asked what powder and caps would be consistently available where ever we went. They said Swiss powder and German caps. i bought several cans of Swiss FFFg and shot it over my chronograph against loads from six different lots of GOEX FFFg that I happened to have. The Swiss loads had half the standard deviation of the best lot of the GOEX. Several of the GOEX loads had really bad standard deviations. While standard deviation isn't everything, it is a good initial tell on whether a lot of powder - black or smokeless - will perform, and generally you want the narrowest standard deviation you can obtain. I also found that Swiss fouled much less, and that I could somewhat reduce my loads and achieve the same results (i.e, 25 grs of Swiss FFG in my Remington revolvers vice 30 grs of GOEX FFFg). As I've purchased each new lot of Swiss, I've continued to shoot it over my chronograph. The lots have been remarkably consistent and I've never had to change the sights on my guns, either the ones I shoot for the N-SSA or have shot for the international team.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[Maillemaker]

I've only every shot Goex and Schuetzen. Bought the Schuetzen once when Back Creek was out of Goex. I found it to be a very dirty powder and was unable to shoot the Moose Wilkinson with it as shots got crunchy on loading after about 3 shots.

I'd like to try Swiss but hate the thought of having to re-do all my load workups with it, though they say you can use less Swiss so it's a wash cost wise.

Steve

[Hal]

I use Swiss. Yeah, it's expensive, but it burns clean. With lube made from 50/50 beeswax/olive oil, I get no hard fouling. It's not uncommon to get a clean patch on the third one. To me, that beats the heck out of brushing dry hard fouling out of a bore or having trouble getting a bullet down the bore after only 2-3 rounds. I've heard some say that soft fouling just gets pushed to the bottom and will plug the flash hole, but I've never experienced it.

[Mike McDaniel]

Swiss for pistols, Goex for musket/carbine. Like Don, I shoot Swiss for the International events...and those are my serious ones. And when we go overseas, it's Swiss that's available. But I've got Goex in stock, and use it for the long arms. I don't shoot those nearly as seriously as the pistols.

[bobanderson]

When I first experienced Swiss, I was a Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette shooter, using Goex Cartridge grade almost exclusively. Goex had a plant explosion (several, I think) that led them to producing a sub-standard lot of Cartridge which they chose to sell rather than wait until the good stuff was available. That case of powder was so underpowered, there was a 5' drop when comparing old vs new at 600 yards. When Goex refused to replace the bad lot, I went to Swiss, even though it was way overpriced. (I always shop price.) When I called GOEX to complain about the substandard Cartridge grade, their response was to have a fast talking "expert" call me and waste about an hour of my time telling me about how superior their products were. That was the last time I bought Cartridge, or even Goex for a while. I actually tried Elephant powder (we called it Elephant droppings) which was even more underpowered but extremely consistent velocity meaning great accuracy.
Then I became a skirmisher, about 12 years ago, and started buying Goex 3f in bulk. Being naturally inquisitive, the first thing I did was compare Swiss 1 1/2 & 3f and Goex 3f. I shot them over chronographs and off the bench to compare velocity, standard deviation and accuracy.
In a nutshell, there was no advantage to paying the higher price for Swiss. My musket (3 band Enfield) and carbine (Garrett Sharps) shot equally well with both powders. Because I still shot BPCRS, I kept the Swiss as it was clearly superior in accuracy and velocity at long range, even though it had hard fouling. We had discarded the blow tubes and were wiping between shots then, so fouling was not an issue. I also have a superior lube recipe I've used for about 15 years that works great in all of my BP guns. I'm sure it makes my powder choices easier to live with.
Then Goex introduced their alternative to Swiss, a powder they called "Express". They advertised it as hotter and cleaner burning with softer fouling. Again I trotted out the Chrony and compared Express to Swiss and Goex 3f. Turned out they were right about the softer fouling and better velocity. Being a cheap B*****d, I was thrilled that it was also about 25% cheaper than Swiss. I enthusiastically switched my BPCR guns to Express. I also discovered Express was a superior powder for my Civil War smoothbores. The cleaner burning and softer fouling led to long shot strings in my H&P and Macon conversion smoothbores.
Then, the unthinkable happened. Goex announced they were discontinuing Express and replacing it with Old Eynsford. I was so worried that the new product would be different than Express, I bought up all that Back Creek Gun Shop had. (To this day, I have a private stock of Express used exclusively for my smoothbores. I may have to eventually go to OE, but not now and for several years to come.) A powder dealer told me that OE is the same formula as Express, but I have nothing but hearsay to prove that.
As a side note, The Express, and in my limited experience, Old Eynsford, is so clean burning, I have stopped using lube in my smoothbores for two full seasons now. I can shoot 20 shots in a string and the last ball loads almost as easily as the second one. There are better scores being shot than I do, but I was #1 on the 1st Michigan hit times for smoothbore for a long time and just recently fell to a close #2. Some of that might be because I've been teaching my teammates my method of preparing smoothbore loads. I don't know if my mates are using my method exclusively, but as a team, we are winning in our region and placing well at the Nationals.

To sum up, I use Goex bulk 3f in my rifled CW guns and Goex Express in my smoothbore. Even if I had a bigger budget for powder, I see no advantage to be gained by using Swiss in any of the black powder guns I use. (I haven't shot BPCRS for at least 3 years now.)

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

Everyone seems to want to know what the secret is to the winning ways of the 110th. Here it is. the A team uses Goex exclusively. Now you all know.

Greg

[RaiderANV]

Come on Greg. I heard ya'll let it sit in a dark closet to age for 3 years before opening.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

I agree with all prior comments.

Based on fifty years of BP use for hunting, target and skirmishing with revolvers, shotguns, bench guns and awfulhand rifles, the biggest issue for me was that B-P brands change ingredients, sources for ingredients and even strength for the same "F" size. The manufacturers adjust batches to create the same strength, but SWISS seems much better/closer, however they do it.

Added 07DEC18:
The lot-to-lot "strength" variation (TOLERANCE) for GOEX WAS 7% YEARS BACK. Yep!
That figure was shared with me by the then GOEX owner, Frank Fahringer.
It may be different NOW, but hopping between different lots might introduce the need to retest your favorite accuracy load because strength tolerances CAN be significant with our light loads. I have been told by very experienced and capable black powder cartridge long range shooters that at most, the charge change from lot-to-lot with their heavier loads of SWISS has been a single grain.

Just my opinion, here:
With a BPCR, 70 gr charge of SWISS, a 1gr shift would be 1.5%, but for a 40gr GOEX "musket" charge, 7% change could be as much as 2.8gr. Hmmmm.
For me, 2.8gr is the difference between an ok musket accuracy load and a great one.

Started w DuPont, then Curtis and Harvey, Meteor, GOI, GOEX, Elephant and now Swiss.

All, EXCEPT SWISS, had enough variation in a key ingredient, uniformity of granulation and muzzle velocity extreme spread (ok SD, too) that the only way I could manage velocity consistency was to SIFT out the dust and under sized grains. Sifting removed as much as a whopping 15% in some batches of well regarded brands, except for SWISS, which was remarkably clean.

I accept that we skirmishers are not chasing 200-yard X's and do not wipe between shots, but sifting removed enough dust and fines to cut chrono muzzle velocity EXTREME SPREAD in HALF.

Sorry, but using a chrono for black powder involves some tricks. I have used three models of OEHLER's and Dr. Ken shared some important B-P tips that current chrono mfgr's don't include in their directions. A blast shield is necessary to prevent the " detached pressure wave ahead of the bullet" (thanks Tony Beck) from triggering the start screen. Yep, for sure! This can MASK issues and STILL register nice, uniform velocity spreads. There are special "shadow-graph" photo's showing this detached pressure wave AHEAD of MINIE's in one Lyman Handbook edited by Ken Ramage in the 1970's.

Anyone that has simultaneously shot over a good chrono (with a blast shield) at a 100 yard target has seen what +/- 30 fps (instrumental) will do to vertical. It can be an inch or TWO at our relatively low velocities.

I am amazed at how well we shoot with no wiping, dumping powder into a muzzle and seating over fouling. Still, sifting helped me a lot.

Swiss is so clean that for over 20 years, I have neither had to sift nor recalibrate for lot number changes. Ok, what ever SWISS lot-to-lot variation correction wisdom John Bly might add about long ranges over 200, I accept. Yes, one SWISS lot years ago was "off".

Elephant was SODIUM nitrate based and very hydroscopic. A pinch left in a lid for a 45 minute relay at Friendship often produced a gooey glob from humidity. No amount of graphite coating would eliminate that. It was 20% weaker than GOI at the time.

I LOVED GOEX and shot it well if sifted. So GOEX is fine, but if'n verticals pop from the bench, even with WEIGHED charges, see if sifting with mom's kitchen sifter will reveal dust and fines (good for flinch lock priming). Up to you from there.

I choose to AVOID sifting and am happy with SWISS.

Most respectfully,
Kevin Tinny
Tammany Rgt, 42 NY

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

Hey Pat, you caught us.

Egg, You're right but we still managed win, even without Rouch.

Greg

[John Bly]

Since I use a lot of Swiss 1 1/2 for my black powder cartridge shooting I decided to simplify things and use it for everything. I now use it in my Maynard, musket and smoothbore. A little load adjustment was necessary but now I don't need any 3F or 2F, just 1 1/2F. Life is easier when you don't have to remember all those different load combinations.

[RaiderANV]

Sir Bly......how many grains do you put in the Maynard??

[John Bly]

Pat, I use 23 grains of 1 1/2F Swiss. I'm going to fine tune it some more this spring when it gets warm enough to shoot.

[Maillemaker]

Wow, Kevin, great info!

Steve

[ms3635v]

When I started skirmishing in 1979 I used DuPont 3F. Then, when DuPont stop producing black powder, I began using GOEX 3F. I have used the GOEX all along and really have not seen the need to shoot anything else. I did, however switch to GOEX Olde Enysford 2F for my smoothbore. It burns cleanly and for the last two years have seen no reason to switch. Just my two cents worth. GOEX has always been reliable and doesn't break the bank to buy it. Even the Olde Enysford is just $3.00 a pound more than the standard GOEX.

[Hal]

The way I justify the price of Swiss is to compare it to the price that Bass Pro charges for Goex. It makes the price of Swiss a little easier to take.

[singleshot]

For the amount of shooting I do it will be Goex. Works great for me shooting the musket, I clean after each event, shooting the flintlock all the guys i know wipe between each shot. I have two guns in 50 cal. one with a Douglas barrel and the other with a Colerain that do not require cleaning after each shot. To each is own as they say.

[bobanderson]

...using a chrono for black powder involves some tricks. I have used three models of OEHLER's and Dr. Ken shared some important B-P tips that current chrono mfgr's don't include in their directions. A blast shield is necessary to prevent the bow wave BLAST OF THE POWDER (which can run AHEAD of the projectile for up to 30 feet) from triggering the start screen. Yep, for sure! This can MASK issues and STILL register nice, uniform velocity spreads. There are special photo's showing this pressure bow wave AHEAD of MINIE's in one Lyman Handbook edited by Ken Ramage in the 1970's.



I wish we had a utility on this board to start a new thread based on information in a prior one. This comment intrigues me no end. Because I've come to believe EVERYTHING Kevin posts is accurate, I wanted to learn more about this effect.
First, lets separate what exits the barrel behind the bullet. I had to make lexan blast shields because the plastic cover on the front sensor of my chrony was destroyed when I was testing cartridge gun loads. That was caused by the chrony being too close to the muzzle and the unburned powder and hard residue that is contained in the muzzle blast of a bp explosion.
The pragmatist in me says that no way can something leaving a barrel behind a bullet overtake that bullet, if everything is propelled by the same force. (It's like the old time Sharps shooter who insisted that pushing a bullet and loose powder charge into the chamber could allow powder to get in front of the bullet and into the barrel.)
I do know that the blast can affect a bullet as it exits because at that point the bullet is no longer supported by the crown. That effect is supposed to be limited to a tipping caused by uneven pressure at different points of the base. Out in the atmosphere, where everything is equally affected by gravity, barometric pressure, humidity and wind, I can't see that wave ever catching up to even the base of the bullet let alone passing it.

I tried searching for information from Ken Ramage, but it looks like he gets credit for editing the Lyman handbooks for many years. There were no specific articles or even pictures I could find about bow waves and chronographs.

Kevin, do you have any specific articles or photos to support your statement?

"Help me, Obi Wan. You're my only hope."

[Kevin Tinny]

Hi, Bob:

Thanks for your comments.

The Lyman "manual" was edited by Ken and I gave mine away. Sorry.
It was a large format, 3/4" thick, 12" X 14" or so, not the usual Lyman manual size.
Have looked all over for one, but it is the one with Minie ballistics in the back.
Both chrono results and some "spark" photo's were included.
One showed the expanded skirt a couple inches beyond the muzzle.

There are lots of UTUBE slo-mo vid's showing the muzzle of center-fire rifles with a puff of smoke preceeding the bullet's exit. Same for shotshells.

Peters Ctg Co published a small booklet in the 1930's full of spark photo's showing shot charges leaving to muzzle. All had gasses in front of the charge.

Dr. Oehler said it was a "pressure wave", not particulates from unburned powder that could trigger the start "Skyscreen". I think OUR relatively slow bullets are involved.

Again, it is from muzzle closeness. I used a 1\8" thick plywood 12" square sheet with 4" round hole located a foot in front of the first screen. Careful, careful. No one shot through it but me. Have seen several nice screens of others perforated by range rats not aligning correctly.

Trying to chrono m-l shotgun loads was a challenge because of not only that pressure wave, but also the erratic sensing of pellets by the screens. Had to use an induction coil to sense the main body of the charge vs. leading pellets or stray ones.

Might Google spark photographs of bullets.

Dr. Oehler and I spoke about five years ago. He may still be around. Very nice fellow.

Regardless, the shield solves the problem.

Bullet overstabilization, tipping at muzzle exit and the "Magnus" effect should get your brain going. Haha. Love.

Kevin

[Charlie Hahn]

Regarding items that exit the barrel. The projectile sees a set back force when the powder burns in-bore. As the projectile leaves the muzzle the gun gases exit at several thousand feet per second, and go past the projectile this is referred to as set forward, or for a few milliseconds the projectile fly's backward as these gasses and un-burned particles go past the bullet. This is where a crown needs to be perpendicular to the center line of the barrel or tipping will happen. Once the gases slow, the projectile slams into the air and has another chance to veer. In our case we have two other issues, the cavity, and the lead will expand or "flechette". If the skirt is weak, it can also rupture and plays a part in the production of those wayward shots we all just can't explain.

[John Bly]

Mann in his experiments used a device he called the "whizzer". It was a round sheet of paper attached to a ring which was rotated at high speed in front of the muzzle when a shot was fired. The theory was that any ejecta in front of the bullet would imprint the paper before the bullet pierced the paper. I don't recall if his experiments proved anything. This was way before high speed cameras. He was using the highest technology available at the time. His work on the bullet's flight is still widely respected today.

[bobanderson]

His work on the bullet's flight is still widely respected today.

Got my copy years ago when the NRA offered their Firearms Classics Library. (Read all of them cover to cover, btw.)

Every cast bullet shooter should read his research to find the cause of flyers in a group.

Always wanted to build a box filled with oiled sawdust to catch bullets.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hi:

Couple more things, please:

Old notes reflect the Lyman book that Ramage edited was written by Ted Almgren and Wm. McDonald. The expanded skirt "shadow-graph" was of Lyman 575213 NEW Style at a high velocity. Another at around 800fps had no expansion. Measuring the DIAMETERS of holes in thin target paper will disclose an enlarged skirt. Probably obvious, but the skirt expansion occurs AFTER the minie exits the confinement of the bore. That means there IS STILL considerable pressure at the muzzle. I have had a 42" custom m-loading shotgun test barrel from a very reliable maker rip itself open 4" back from the muzzle. Yes, too thin, but it wouldn't have happened without sufficient pressure THERE.

My earlier post was updated to include a bit more detail on the lot-to-lot variation/strength tolerance within a brand and granulation. GOI and GOEX ran the previous DuPont "Belin" BP plant, in Moosic, PA. Before GOI got it, the DuPont production engineer told me the strength tolerance was 6% - 7%. Mr. Fahringer shared the same 6% - 7% figure and added that GOEX ran the same ingred's, process and tolerance because 75% of production was for military use.

Oiled sawdust boxes will disclose LOTS of useful info.
But, the sawdust must be of the rougher, coarser SAWMILL granulation, not the finer stuff from a table saw. Mix the sawmill stuff with the least possible 30 wgt reclaimed motor oil and small rake in a kid's 12" X 72" play pool. Too much oil diminishes the fluffyness. Boxes can be plywood, 18" square and about 7 FEET long with a hinged lid.

Make TWO that overlap at one end and BOLT/FIT TOGETHER because it is EASY to have 9 FEET of penetration! Be SAFE! I PLACED THEM ON TWO, END-TO-END, CAREFULLY LEVELED HEAVY PICNIC TABLES. Align shots EXTRA WELL because the bullet path meanders a little in the sawdust and a bullet CAN END UP RUBBING ON THE INSIDE. Also, I HAVE HAD BP 1250fps, cast 40 cal bullets penetrate NINE FEET and center punch a refrig in my garage! That prompted me to build the second box.

Locating lead slugs can be time consuming, even when you know the approx penetration.
I placed sheets of thin shirtboard every foot to pull out for penetration gauging. These boxes work for soft and alloy lead BULLETS up to around 1400 fps, but pure lead balls at up to 2500fps look like they were smashed flat on the leading side.

With bullets, gas cutting shows well, as does nose setback from too soft an alloy.
Never tried minies for skirt evaluation. Was working with slug guns then. I could take (PROPERLY FITTING, PAPER PATCHED) recovered slugs and reshoot them on paper and they would go into the group shot with normal ones. Seemed the rifling imprint didn't matter out to 300.

One other fascinating thing in MANN is the bullet stripping stuff, which the NRA Technical Staff later reproved for lead bullets at below 30,000PSI in a Dec, 1957 AMERICAN RIFLEMAN article "Is Jumping The Rifling Likely?" VERY DIFFICULT TO GET BULLETS TO STRIP!

The answers are IN THE BOOKS. There are several members that know ALL this stuff and MORE from their Gomment work. Love.

Kevin

[hobbler]

Jack's Battle Powder because it goes bang real good and makes lots of smoke and I hit what I'm shooting at.
And there's not any of that worrying around either about which F grade to put in the pan.
Oh and yeah, it has a delicate balanced bouquet.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

YA GOTTA WATCH THIS! Happy New Year.

Surfing GOOGLE during the last couple days for European history stuff turned up a UTUBE video by
"SMARTER EVERY DAY" entitled: "CANNON SHOCK WAVES ..... ".

This AMAZING video may be well known to our artillery teams, but was new to me.

THE "SMARTER" fellow presents VERY REVEALING, COLOR, hyper-frame speed, SLO-MO "VISION RESEARCH" camera footage of several BLACK POWDER CANNON firing either ball or elongated bullet.

He indicated that he was looking into "pressure waves". Hmmm ..... . He sure had my attention.

About eight minutes (be patient) into the thirteen minute vid, is a software enhanced ("offset one frame mode"?) view of cannon muzzles and the first few feet beyond them during firing.

This footage clearly and repeatedly shows:

VISIBLY large amounts of solid black EJECTA, then billowing white GAS, next red/yellow FLASH leaving the bore BEFORE THE VISIBLE PROJECTILE.

THEN, in the offset mode footage, THE PRESSURE WAVE (THAT CAN TRIGGER CHRONOGRAPH START SCREENS) BEING WELL AHEAD OF ALL OF THE PROJECTILES AND EJECTA.

LATER, how MUCH the wooden carriages flex during firing.

"Smarter" also comments about the shape of the pressure wave.

This video is of BLACK POWDER VELOCITY projectiles from relatively long, in terms of "caliber" barrels.
It seems applicable to our carbines and rifles.

Technology is our friend.

Sorry, but I prefer not to post "links". I never open them and would not expect others to, either, Thanks.

Respectfully,
Kevin Tinny

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, Eggman:

Was not inferring my "discovery". Rather that when evaluating powder brand velocity with a chrono, most instructions do not include the need for a blast shield. The shield helps.

Some contend that there is nothing "ahead" of the projectile to otherwise trigger the chrono.
The UTUBE vid shows there is. Your 20,000 fps makes it clearer.
l guess that's also why the people in movies outrunning blast waves are REALLY FAST! Tx.

As for expanding skirts, it was that the expanded skirt IN the bore, enlarges after exit to more than bore diameter depending on skirt thickness and pressure level.

Some minie skirt shadow graphs in the Lyman manual were not enlarged and some were.

Respectfully,
Kevin