Getting Started With Cavalry Carbines...

[samuel990]

Hey all, I have just "discovered" Civil War Carbines, and am very interested in them. I think they are really neat and would like to get a nice representative collection of them. Any suggestions on what to start with? I am from Ohio, so I would lean towards those issued to Ohio units... I do shoot all of my collection, so this would be shot. I am not new to older rifles, I have had some European guns like Dreyses and Gras. Any advise on where to look or what to look for would be greatly appreciated. One website I keep looking at is horsesoldier. com. Are they any good?

Thanks alot,
Sam

[bobanderson]

And now it starts...

[Hal]

There is a Mike Kent Civil War Show just south of Nashville TN on December 1-2. I forget the name of the city. Google Mike Kent Shows and you should find all the info. There will be more Civil War guns there than you would ever care to see. Be prepared to spend the better part of the day there. Matter of fact, there is one this weekend in Richmond VA, but that's kinda late notice and may be a longer drive.

[mgmradio]

Well since you are from Ohio you will need an Ohio manufactured Gwyn and Campbell.

[Southron Sr.]

The N-SSA's Carbine Team Matches are a great way to relive history and learn a lot about how Cavalry Carbines were actually used-did I mention that they are challenging and A LOT OF FUN!!!

Just fill out the form linked below and begin a genuine adventure in history, fun and fellowship:

http://www.n-ssa.org/join-a-team/

[William H. Shuey]

which is better, blondes, brunettes or red heads!!


:-) Bill Shuey

[samuel990]

Well since you are from Ohio you will need an Ohio manufactured Gwyn and Campbell.
I didn't know these where made in Ohio! The carbines I was looking at before where Smiths, Burnsides, Starr, and Gallager. I guess this is on the list now! All the Gwyn and Campbells I have seen tend to be more expensive than other designs. Is there a reason for that? Less built?

[samuel990]

There is a Mike Kent Civil War Show just south of Nashville TN on December 1-2. I forget the name of the city. Google Mike Kent Shows and you should find all the info. There will be more Civil War guns there than you would ever care to see. Be prepared to spend the better part of the day there. Matter of fact, there is one this weekend in Richmond VA, but that's kinda late notice and may be a longer drive.
I will say I live very close to the Civil War show in Mansfield, Ohio. One of the biggest in the country. I have always gone for the World War Two Guns though, never paid much attention to the Civil War ones. Unfortunately, I don't have leave during that show or the Mike Kent one... I guess I will have to keep looking. Any shows around Christmas time? Or are there any stores you like? Brick and mortar or online.

[Steve Weems]

A good source for carbines is Lodgewood at Lodgewood.com. They also attend several of the civil war shows around the country. I would like to point out there is extensive array of books on carbines both in general and on specific models. Gwyn and Campbell has an interesting history in the early war period and I believe it has it’s own book.

[samuel990]

Hello Mr. 990,
What Southron didn't say is the N-SSA's Fort Shenandoah is a great source for original carbines. Lodgewood is one of the vendors there. We also have the Small Arms Committee guys with unsurpassed expertise in all arms Civil War. For the price of a couple sliders I'm sure John and Bruce would be willing to provide lots of great advice. Of course you might want to join up first.
I did fill out the form linked above. When is Ft. Shenandoah open? Only during events?

[samuel990]

Members can access any time. Full up with vendors next year -- May 15-19; Oct 2-6. These are the nationals.
I will actually be free during May! Excited now as I was disappointed about missing Ohio Show. So to join, all I needed to do was fill out that form, correct?

[Dave Fox]

As the fellow said, "here we go"! I presently shoot for pleasure a Gallager, Smith, Maynard, Sharps, Spencer, Starr, Burnside, Ballard, and Type II Gynn & Campbell. Other opinions may and doubtless do vary, but my favorites for shooting are the wickedly accurate Ballard (converted to take .45 Long Colt cartridges), Starr, and, strange to say, the Gwyn & Campbell. The Maynard's downright boring, like shooting a modern gun. The Burnside would be right up there but for cartridge sensitivity. There are a number of books useful to a shooter or collector. I recommend for a start McAulay's "Carbines of the Civil War" for general information and Schiffers's "Civil War Carbines, Myth Vs. Reality" for shooting insights, though my experience frequently differs from the author's. You can't have too many books. If you'd like a Charleston, S.C. visit, it has a Civil War show the month after the mega Franklin, Tennessee CW show, first weekend in January when motel rates are low there. www.bulletand (http://www.bulletand)shell.com is one of several sites with a feature setting out upcoming shows where CW firearms are likely to be found. As someone earlier stated, the Gwyn & Campbell is an Ohio gun and thus may be of especial interest to you. it also has the attraction of being the oddest. Attached is a photograph of mine.

[samuel990]

Thinking you might be interested in an Ohio outfit. Turns out the big Kahonas of the N-SSA are the 110th Ohio. They are habitual national champions. One weakness though - they are hopeless shooting at juicer bottles.
I will look into them. I am currently stuck in Alabama until May, but when I am back I definitely would like to join them.

[samuel990]

Dave Fox,
I am considering either the Gwyn and Campbell or the Starr right now. Is your star rimfire or paper cartridge? I am leaning towards paper, due to ease of reloading. I am also looking at the Gallager, it looks like a cool design. Also it seems they where mosty issued to Ohio units. Might have to decide between these by getting whichever I find a reasonable price on first!

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

The Civil War Ballard carbines are usually less pricey. Lots were sold by a dealer in Cincinnati, Ohio named Kittridge & Co. and so marked. Used by mostly western cavalry troops like Ohio and Kentucky.

[Steve Weems]

As the fellow said, "here we go"! I presently shoot for pleasure a Gallager, Smith, Maynard, Sharps, Spencer, Starr, Burnside, Ballard, and Type II Gynn & Campbell. Other opinions may and doubtless do vary, but my favorites for shooting are the wickedly accurate Ballard (converted to take .45 Long Colt cartridges), Starr, and, strange to say, the Gwyn & Campbell. The Maynard's downright boring, like shooting a modern gun. The Burnside would be right up there but for cartridge sensitivity. There are a number of books useful to a shooter or collector. I recommend for a start McAulay's "Carbines of the Civil War" for general information and Schiffers's "Civil War Carbines, Myth Vs. Reality" for shooting insights, though my experience frequently differs from the author's. You can't have too many books. If you'd like a Charleston, S.C. visit, it has a Civil War show the month after the mega Franklin, Tennessee CW show, first weekend in January when motel rates are low there. www.bulletand (http://www.bulletand)shell.com is one of several sites with a feature setting out upcoming shows where CW firearms are likely to be found. As someone earlier stated, the Gwyn & Campbell is an Ohio gun and thus may be of especial interest to you. it also has the attraction of being the oddest. Attached is a photograph of mine.

Dave maybe you can share some of your tips on shooting the G&C? Bullets, powder charge, reliability? I have never had a chance to shoot one of these but have all ways been very curious since as a young man was taken over to a friends granpa's who had a half a dozen or so on his den wall.
Thanks for any input--Steve

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

I can't believe that no one has mentioned the Maynard. They are affordable, and you can reuse the brass forever. It was my first carbine, even before I joined the NSSA and they are a lot of fun to shoot. Much easier than the paper cartridges. I have two Gwyn and Campbells and I am about as likely to shoot them as I am a Hall. NEVER.

[Dave Fox]

Sam; Let me hasten to say I started collecting firearms when a teenager in the 1950s and except for a spell of college, 'Nam, and law school on the GI Bill, have been accumulating them ever since, much of the time when they were relatively and absolutely inexpensive. Pushing 75, God help me, and retired, my chief joy is loading for and shooting old firearms which good eyes, health, and retirement have given me the opportunity to do.


I found my G&C type II at a Marietta show some four years ago, unloved and all-but unwanted. Unissued, surface storage rust, excellent bore, tight action. One needs both the latter to enjoy the shooting. Most G&Cs I've examined appear unissued, likely because Sharps were in full production and Spencers were coming into issuance when most G&Cs were concurrently delivered. Found that the .515 347 grain bullet from the mould I use for my Smith and Maynard carbines works well. I dip the bullet in melted SPG lubricant then peel the excess off the sides and base with a knife blade. Using quick-drying paper glue I form a cartridge 1.1" long and just a hair larger in diameter than the bullet. I then push a bit of paper into the cartridge to form the base, and glue it. I use women's hair curling paper. This paper cartridge takes about 45 grains of FFFg powder. The bullet is then inserted with a small dab of glue to hold it in place. The cartridge slides easily into the chamber and a camming action pushes a fitted plunger into the chamber base, sealing the breech. After firing, the empty paper cartridge remains intact. I haven't had much luck with nitrating the paper. As the flash enters the cartridge from the side, its base remains intact. This is handy because by blowing down the muzzle I not only soften fouling but expel the fired paper cartridge with an audible "pop". Schiffers, in his most interesting book "Civil War Carbines, Myth Vs. Reality", loathed the G&C (perversely a reason I bought one). His shooting was inaccurate and his G&C leaked gas. Mine is quite tight, leaks little gas, and is gratifyingly accurate. It's so ugly it's cute, is fun to shoot, and the breechblock comes out readily for easy clean up. Wanna hear about the Starr?

[mgmradio]

I also have and shoot a percussion Starr carbine. I had a friend make me a mould using an original Starr bullet. I played with making linen cartridges and it shoots them well. I have also shot the original style bullets with a Charlie's tube glued to the end, which also works well. What I finally settled on is an oversized ringtail Sharps bullet and tube. Shoots very tight groups.

[samuel990]

Dave, I would love to hear about your Starr. A little about myself: I am currently going to college in one of our countries military institutes, which is the reason I have a very tight schedule when it comes to gun shows. I love old guns, which make up the entirety of my collection. I really have no use for modern firearms right now, and just enjoy bringing the old ones back to life.
P.S. Sometimes when I post with a quote it tells me I need to wait for moderator approval before the post will appear. Why is that?

[samuel990]

Jim, I also looked at Maynards. I guess there are just so many different carbines, someone hadn't gotten to it yet! I am personally surprised no one has suggested a Sharps yet... They were they most issued carbine for a reason I'm guessing! And about shooting paper cartridges- I am going to attempt to roll some for my Dreyse Fusiliers Rifle this week while I'm home... If I can get it to shoot I will definitely show you guys a video! The Dreyse might have been on a different continent, but it fought for the same years some of these carbines did!

[samuel990]

mgmradio,
I was thinking about doing the same thing if I went with the Starr-having a mold made after an original bullet. There seems to be no molds available for the Starr like there are for other carbines. How does she shoot? I read the Starr was one of the most accurate of the carbines.

[samuel990]

The Civil War Ballard carbines are usually less pricey. Lots were sold by a dealer in Cincinnati, Ohio named Kittridge & Co. and so marked. Used by mostly western cavalry troops like Ohio and Kentucky.
I keep this in mind, the Ballard is a nice looking rifle. I've got to admit, the Gwyn and Campbell is an ugly little guy... Of course it's from Ohio!

[Dave Fox]

Comrade MGMRADIO has the right of it regarding the Starr. It has a strong action of ingenious design and received a bad rap during the war, I believe chiefly because in the field troopers armed with Starrs were often issued Sharps cartridges, cartridges which were too short containing undersized bullets, resulting in misfires and inaccuracy. A question I've never seen answered is: why, entering into contracts, the government didn't insist on a commonality of ammunition...Starrs could easily have been chambered and bored for Sharps ammo. Schiffers in his "Civil War Carbines, Myth Vs. Reality" persisted in testing the Starr w/o lubeing the bullets, then failed it due to inaccuracy and bore fouling. Duh.

Seeking a shootable Starr, important to me was the sharpness of the bore, and condition of the narrow sealing lip on the face of the breechblock (see photo attached). As to the latter, a corroded, chipped lip I'm told can be repaired with J-B Weld. It appears to me that many Starrs have loose breechblocks, results perhaps of being flogged with maximum powder charges in capacious chambers. Cartridge making for the Starr is much like that for the Gwyn and Campbell. A tube of curling paper is formed of slightly greater diameter than the bullet and trimmed to a length of 1.4 inch. As the flash comes through the tail of the cartridge, I seat a piece of tissue paper there. I've found the .56 calibre mould I had for my Burnside seems a happy choice for the Starr. This bullet is lubed with SPG and seated over 45 grains of FFFg topped with a 1.9 cc measure of Cream of wheat filler. This reduced charge seems about right for my informal shooting. Again, this paper doesn't burn entirely and I rake out spent cartridge paper with a wire hook. With a good sealing lip and tight breechblock fit, my Starr is more gas-tight than my Sharps. Accuracy is acceptable and cleaning, due to the two-part breech block, is a tad involved. The whole impression is of a serious weapon for adults.

Why not a Sharps or Maynard? Both are reproduced, both are common. Too common. Take the road less traveled!

[Dave Fox]

Jim, re: ammunition commonality in patent CW carbines, I was thinking more of early war, initial contracts of the paper/linen cartridge weapons.

[mgmradio]

Samual,
The Starr is very accurate and has very minimal gas leakage as long as you keep the sealing ring clean. The camming action of the breach makes a tight seal.
In the Army trials it out performed the Sharps. The problems that occurred in the field were caused by an ordinance officers mistake thinking the Starr and the Sharps cartridges were interchangeable because they looked similar. The Sharps cartridges were substantially smaller in diameter, causing the round to slide to far into the barrel leaving a gap of an inch or more between the flash hole and the base of the cartridge. This lead to misfires. The troops using the correct ammo did not have these problems.
The Original Starr bullets are a smooth bullet with one raised ring at the base. The base ring is .555-.560" the smooth part of the bullet is actually bore riding. The original bullets were lubed with bees wax , and that's what I use.
The original style bullet is very accurate and better than 9 of 10 linen or tube cartridges exit the barrel. The over sized Sharps bullets with tubes are as accurate and easier to setup and most of the tubes exit the barrel also. It is also easier to lube the Ringtails with bees wax as you can hold the tail when dipping.
To lube the bullets with bees wax, I fires heat the wax to around 175 deg. I also heat the bullets to 150-160 deg. Then dip the bullet in the wax and pull it out and shake it. This leaves a nice thin coat of wax and if not sufficient can be repeated. If you don't heat the bullet you will end up with a very thick coat of wax and will need to remove a lot of it.

[Hal]

My wife has both an original Model 1859 Sharps and a Starr. She skirmishes primarily with the Sharps, but has used the Starr. We use Moose Moulds ringtail bullets in both. .544 in the Sharps and .557 in the Starr. I've tried the cardboard tubes in both. They work "OK" in the Sharps. In the Starr, the tube is left and must be extracted before reloading. On occasion, there have been pieces left in the Sharps, so we kinda abandoned that idea and stuck with paper cartridges. We only use hair curler paper in our cartridges. We roll a whole, untrimmed, un-nitrated, hair curler paper from the narrow end around a mandrel just a hair larger than the tail on the ringtail bullet, using a glue stick to capture the end of the roll. We slide it about 1/4" off the end of the mandrel and using the glue stick again, put a bit of glue on the tail of the ringtail bullet. We stick that down inside the open end of the rolled paper and stick it to the bullet with our fingers and withdraw it from the mandrel. Next we stand it up in the corner hole of a modern plastic cartridge reloading tray. We cut pieces of dental floss about 6-8 inches long and tie one around the paper in the recess of the ringtail and snip off the excess with a pair of scissors. We then put in the powder from the open rear of the cartridge, then twist shut. I will move the finished cartridge back in the loading tray and start on the next one in that corner hole, the corner hole lending itself better to having room the tie the dental floss on.

Upon loading in the sharps, the twisted tail of the cartridge is cut off. Just the tail, though, not the whole butt end of it like cutting the end off a cigar. I'm sure at this point, what little twist remains tends to open up exposing powder, but that is not really needed. More on that later. when the gun is fired, the entire cartridge is consumed. Nothing left. No pieces of paper or cardboard to have to fish out. It's ready for the next round.

When we first got her Starr, we experimented with cardboard tubes and twisted tail rounds just like described above. Like I said before, the cardboard tube remained in its entirety and had to be extracted. With the twisted tail Sharps style cartridges, there was nothing to cut them off, so we just folded that tail across the bottom of the cartridge and closed the breech. the twisted tail would almost always still be in there stuck to the breech block and had to picked off. Next, I tried cutting the twisted tail off, leaving only the bare minimum of twist on the cartridge. Then I put a single drop of super glue on that tiny bit of remaining twist to keep it shut. That worked wonderfully. Now, just like the Sharps, nothing left of the cartridge when opening the breech of the Starr.

Just my opinion....This is easier than the cardboard tube or rolling a paper tube that must have a second piece of a different type paper glued in the end. And for us, at least, worked better, although there are plenty of others that seem to have no problem with the tubes. We usually do this as a team. She will roll the cartridges and glue in the bullets. I will tie the dental floss and fill and close the cartridge.

Thanks to Southron Sr. for teaching me this method. It may not be for everybody, but it works for us. Hopefully, others will find it helpful, as well.

[samuel990]

Hey, so I think I've decided to go with a Burnside Carbine. I understand they can take some work in making a load, but I'm ok with that. Burnsides are the rifles that drew me to this at first, so I think I'll start out with one of those. Also, until I get my Dreyse all figured out, I'm limiting myself to one paper cartridge rifle. So does anyone have any suggestions for molds? I see Old West Bullet molds has a mold, is it any good? They make some quality molds in my experience. Also, has anyone seen any good ones for sale lately? I saw there was one on the trader here. Would that be good to start out with?

[bobanderson]

Hey, so I think I've decided to go with a Burnside Carbine. I understand they can take some work in making a load, but I'm ok with that. Burnsides are the rifles that drew me to this at first, so I think I'll start out with one of those.

Also, has anyone seen any good ones for sale lately?

Don't think you'll find anything much nicer than this one - https://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthread.php/16333-FS-Original-Burnside-Carbine?highlight=Burnside

[samuel990]

Don't think you'll find anything much nicer than this one - https://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthread.php/16333-FS-Original-Burnside-Carbine?highlight=Burnside
That is the one I am considering.

[RaiderANV]

You need only look online to see the price folks are asking to know that Rob's Burnside is a great price. If I didn't already have three......

[Hal]

Samuel,

I have yet to get a truly great load for my Burnside, but to date, my best experience has been with an old Ideal (Lyman) 557456. Before that, I had tried Accurate Molds 56-340B and 56-450B and .562 Roundballs. I could not get it to shoot the 56-340B worth a darn. I had some marginal success with roundballs and the 56-450B. I'm still working with the 557456, but it looks more promising than the others. Unfortunately, that mould is no longer produced. You might find one for sale used, but you have to look for them.

[samuel990]

Samuel,

I have yet to get a truly great load for my Burnside, but to date, my best experience has been with an old Ideal (Lyman) 557456. Before that, I had tried Accurate Molds 56-340B and 56-450B and .562 Roundballs. I could not get it to shoot the 56-340B worth a darn. I had some marginal success with roundballs and the 56-450B. I'm still working with the 557456, but it looks more promising than the others. Unfortunately, that mould is no longer produced. You might find one for sale used, but you have to look for them.
Alright, thanks. I was originally planning to go with the Accurate 56-450B, I heard it worked well. I guess I will keep looking for something, mabey a Lyman mold as you said if I can find one. If anyone else has experience with these bullets, let me know about it!
Thanks

[Hal]

Samuel,

I'm not trying to talk you out of the Accurate 56-450B. It may well work for you. I suspect my problem with it is that when I size them (Or any other for that matter) down enough to get them in the brass case, I SUSPECT it may be a little smaller than the groove diameter of the rifle. Hard to say, since measuring the 3 groove rifling is not that easy to do. I'm not getting leading, but I'm not getting tight groups either. If you have a lathe or are willing to pay someone who does, you might consider a similar mould that Accurate offers. It's the same bullet, but the mould is bored thru so you can put a base plug in it, but I don't think they offer the base plug. You would have to make one or have one made. This allows you to use different custom built plugs to adjust the bullet length and also experiment with hollow bases, all with the same mould. The hollow base was what made me want the 557456, theory being, it would swell upon firing to fully engage the rifling but be small enough to go in my cases. You can do the same with this other Accurate mould I am talking about. I don't remember the number for sure. It may have just had the B removed from the end or maybe had another letter added. I don't remember now. That was my plan if I hadn't found the 557456.

I could send you some 56-450B's to try, but I can't swear when I can do that. If you are interested, let me know and I will try to make time to cast some.

[samuel990]

Samuel,

I'm not trying to talk you out of the Accurate 56-450B. It may well work for you. I suspect my problem with it is that when I size them (Or any other for that matter) down enough to get them in the brass case, I SUSPECT it may be a little smaller than the groove diameter of the rifle. Hard to say, since measuring the 3 groove rifling is not that easy to do. I'm not getting leading, but I'm not getting tight groups either. If you have a lathe or are willing to pay someone who does, you might consider a similar mould that Accurate offers. It's the same bullet, but the mould is bored thru so you can put a base plug in it, but I don't think they offer the base plug. You would have to make one or have one made. This allows you to use different custom built plugs to adjust the bullet length and also experiment with hollow bases, all with the same mould. The hollow base was what made me want the 557456, theory being, it would swell upon firing to fully engage the rifling but be small enough to go in my cases. You can do the same with this other Accurate mould I am talking about. I don't remember the number for sure. It may have just had the B removed from the end or maybe had another letter added. I don't remember now. That was my plan if I hadn't found the 557456.

I could send you some 56-450B's to try, but I can't swear when I can do that. If you are interested, let me know and I will try to make time to cast some.

I would love some bullets to try. You can take your time, I don't have the Carbine yet. So does the 56-450B need sized to help it fit the brass? I have no experience sizing bullets, the only bullet I cast is the sub caliber teardrop bullet for the Dreyse Needle gun. Absolutely no sizing required. I will also look for the other mold you are talking about.

[Tom Kelley, 6649V]

I have found a load that works well in two of my Burnsides. I use a .550RB, yes .550!. I use the nylon/plastic white tubes and use 33 -35 grains of FFF. I tried using a bullet for years but never hit near as much with the Rapine as I did the RB. Don't forget to cover the flash hole either inside or out.

If you wanta join our unit, I could give you the member discount on one :cool: and show you the ropes for a couple skirmishes. or is it skirmisihi?

I have a second model, two fourth models and seven fifth models.

Tom Kelley
Chesapeake Artillery, 4th MD Artillery CSA