Navy Arms 3 band 1853 Enfield

[twines]

I have a new friend who bought an unfired Navy 3 band pattern 1853 Enfield. This a DGG Ridgefield NJ vintage. He is going after big game in Alaska and is experimenting with loads. I know 60 grains was standard military. He is planning to go with 90 to 100 grains of FFF Black. What are the potential issues? I've never mess with those size loads.

Tom

[John Holland]

Sam Fadala did some testing of heavy powder charges using a Minie Ball, with a high-speed camera to watch the effects. What he discovered was that with loads in the range you are showing the skirt usually deformed from the gas pressure as it left the muzzle severely compromising the accuracy. In addition to that I doubt that you can burn 100 grains of powder in a .58 caliber 40 " barrel.

[hobbler]

Yo twines,
Couple of things...

If one looks at recovered 1860's relic bullets they'll see variations in skirt thicknesses that require different amounts of force to make the lead conform to different geometries of rifling. And the styles of new and used minie molds available have some variations too so there's some choices. Another choice is that if higher powered loads are wanted then the base plug can be modified to have a slightly thicker skirt and the bullet a different over all length. Or can get more than one Lyman mold and swap the base plugs back and forth (from when Lyman made the molds that way). Or he can go wild and crazy with a replacement base plug with adjustable bullet length and interchangeable tips that will fit a variety of second hand Lyman minie molds. :rolleyes:

Second thing, the P53 was originally manufactured with a pretty slow 78" twist in the 39" long barrel. Just my opinion but I think that was pushing the envelope on the slow side by intent. In other words the twist was made as slow as practical for the intended use and as a base line the original issue ammo is worth looking at to see what works. That's not to say your friends piece has a 78" twist though. Being a reproduction it might have a 48" twist like mine.

The service load was 70 grains of powder and a 530 grain bullet. That sounds like what he's about and it's a good place to start for a hunting load and developing things from there. Best of luck on his adventure!

[hobbler]

Passing thought, I'd go with the cleanest load that turned out to be practical. Clean also for the ignition channel as all repro's are not created equal and too much lube can make for second or third shot hang fires, depending upon the individual piece. Having that happen to me on a wounded animal would really ruin my day.

[Southron Sr.]

Anyone with access to a lathe and a bit of knowledge on running the lathe can easily make up various types of experimental base plugs for any Minie Ball type mould.

What I would do is to is start with a Parker-Hale type Minie-Ball mould (I believe Lyman still makes one) and would make various types of base plugs until I found one that gave the best accuracy with a charge of 90-100 grains of FFFg.

In addition to the proper base plug design, I would also experiment with various mixtures of tin mixed in with pure lead. A higher content of tin in lead will make the lead skirt of the Minie Ball a bit stronger-however too much tin in the lead would prevent the skirt of the bullet from expanding properly to grip the rifling. So, the "trick" is finding the proper cavity design and proper tin/lead mixture to produce an accurate Minie Ball that will take heavy charges and shoot accurately..

GOOD LUCK

[Southron Sr.]

I would also check on the rifling twist of your friends Navy Arms Enfield. IT MIGHT HAVE THE 1 IN 48" TWIST.

Here is why I say that: When P-H began producing their three band replica Enfields, they made up a bunch of them with the 1 in 48" twist barrels. Why? Well they (P-H was copying the rifling found in the "Hay Enfields" which was a vastly improved Enfield.)

A Colonel Hay was C.O. of the British School of Musketry at Hythe in the 1850's and 1860's did a tremendous amount of experimentation to improve the M/L Enfield. One of those discoveries was that the 1 in 48" twist rifling produced superior accuracy. Although the Hay Pattern Enfield was never officially adopted by the British Army, New Zealand purchased a large quantity of Hay Enfields and used them in the Maori Wars.

Now, as for the replica three bander P-H Enfields with the 1 in 48" twist, when members of the Muzzle Loading Association of Great Britain discovered that the P-H Enfields had the faster twist than the original Enfields, they got very agitated and DEMANDED that P-H produce replicas with the original 1 in 72" twist.

So, P-H did start producing Enfields with what the MLAGE considered to be the "correct" 1 in 72" twist rifling. As for the P-H Enfields with the 1 in 48" twist? They were exported to the U.S. market. So there is a chance your friend has a Navy Arms Enfield with the 1 in 48" twist!

[John Holland]

Southron - Tom said it is marked "DGG", which is actually read as "GDG", and is the manufacturing mark of Armi San Paolo.

[Southron Sr.]

Dear John:

The "DGG" is found on all arms manufactured at Armi San Paolo. These are the initials of the three founders of the company.

When we were visiting Armi San Paolo in January of 1976, an interesting thing happened. Around 10:00 A.M. in the morning all the machines were shut down and the workers on the factory floor walked outside of the building and milled around.

I asked Mr. Grassi was it already lunch time. He informed me that it was a "Sympathy Strike." Seems that the postmen in Naples had gone on strike. So, the longshoremen at the port of Genoa had gone on strike. Because the longshoremen had gone on strike the bus drivers in Rome had gone on strike and hence the workers at Armi San Paolo had gone on strike.

Mr. Grassi chuckled when I asked him on how long the strike at Armi San Paolo would go on. He said "About 30 minutes." Sure enough when the 30 minutes were up, the Armi San Paolo workers returned to the factory floor, turned their machines on and began producing Euroarms arms again!

[John Holland]

Dear Brannen,

Yes, I know the GDG mark is on all the arms they produced, and yes it is GDG, not DGG. Why? Because that is what the owners themselves, Grassi, Doninelli, and Gazzola, said it is.

Thank you for the interesting insight to some of the Italian labor practices!

[gjones]

Hi gentlemen! I'm the new friend of twines . Finally have have gotten around to registering as a visitor. I have read all your posts and can honestly say they are interesting, good reading, but most importantly helpful.
A little background on myself, l have mainly used patched round balls and the occaisonal maxi in 50 cal. My experience with Minie ball is limited. I have looked into as much info as possible to find the best possible load for my hunt in Alaska. My thanks to twines especially for helping me get onto this forum.

It seems to me that using too much black powder is not going to achieve more knockdown as I thought. With all of your experiences, at what point would I be using excessive powder. Powder isn't cheap, but don't want to be wasteful. I have on hand both 3f & 2f powder. Which should give most consistent results? Consistency is critical as I really don't want a wounded animal.

[Mike McDaniel]

Practical question - will you be able to get black powder in Alaska?

[gjones]

Practical question - will you be able to get black powder in Alaska?

Yes, as I have been told by friend who lives there. Goex is brand given to me he said could be found.. He has also said TRIPLE 7 can be found. Those were my concerns also. I am working to achieve best load for BIG DANGEROUS game with the 1853. Something I have desired to do for many years. I am casting my own minies, using tight weight tolerance for consistency to eliminate that variable.

[Hal]

G,

I read once where guys who live where it snows (I don't), will sometimes shoot ever increasing charges over the snow until they find unburned powder on the snow in front of their firing line in order to find the maximum practical charge. Another way, if'n you got a chronograph, is to shoot ever increasing loads across the chrono. You will eventually find a point at which increasing the charge does little to nothing for velocity. That is another way. Bear in mind though, that all either of these tests do is tell you at what point you cannot burn all the powder before it exits the muzzle. That maximum practical charge will not necessarily (And probably won't) be the most accurate.

[gjones]

Hello Hal,
That's good information. I have begun the shooting process to get the most accurate load possible. From there I do plan to use my chronograph to be able to calculate energy. Your point is well taken on maximum loads. That said, it does seem I need to simply find the most accurate load, then incrementally increase charges until a good decent balance between power and velocity is found for a reasonably safe distance (backup on hand). As I am starting, does 3f give more consistent accuracy than 2f?

[Hal]

That is something that varies from gun to gun and probably from opinion to opinion. Generally, I am of the opinion that 3f is for .50 cal and smaller, although I do make exceptions. I feel that my opinion is likely in the minority, as most people I know shoot 3f in their muskets. I actually use 1-1/2f Swiss in our muskets and also in my wife's Sharps and my Smith. We have loads worked up that do well with that powder. In the Smith, the larger grains are less apt to come out the flash hole. In the Sharps, it wouldn't matter except my wife (I trust she's not reading this) is convinced that 3f will kick harder than 1-1/2f and she already has a bruise on her shoulder after a skirmish. I'm sure I could work up a 3f load for her Sharps that would be accurate, but why bother when what she has works? I am, however, working with a Merrill and a Burnside and I'm using 3f in those...for now.

[Southron Sr.]

May I suggest that you do some research on 19th Century, British black powder, MUZZLELOADING Elephant Rifles. See what worked back in that time on big, dangerous African game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_gun

Regardless on what load combo you settle for with your Enfield, on your bear hunt, be sure to have a couple of "back up" shooters armed with modern, repeating rifles in the unhappy event the shot from your Enfield doesn't put the bear down, but just makes him mad at you.

Good to Know....most replica Enfield ramrods are of a "two piece" design, i.e., the "Head" of the ramrod is "press fit" on the rod portion of the ramrod with a male/female socket arrangement. then the joint between the head and rod is polished to the point where the junction between head of the ramrod and the rod portion is almost invisible.

In practical terms, this does not matter until one has a Minie Ball stuck into the barrel of the rifle. Then the shooter threads the ball puller on to his ramrod, runs the ramrod with the puller attached down the barrel, and screws the puller into the stuck Minie Ball. Then the shooter runs a screwdriver blade thru the slot in the head of the ramrod and PULLS. Nine times out of ten, the head of the ramrod comes off, leaving the Minie Ball, Ball Puller and rod portion of the ramrod stuck in the bore!

So before heading to Alaska, have the head of your ramrod TIG welded to the rod portion of the ramrod to avoid this embarrassment in the field.

Let us know on this BB know how the hunt comes out (include pictures if possible)! I have a feeling you will have a great hunt!

[gjones]

Thanks for those super tips, I did not know of ramrod possibly coming apart! I will research the elephant gun information for certain. I am working on the overall best load to use for reasonable distances, and yes, backup will be there without doubt. With all good luck, lots of practice, and working on best loads, I hope to succeed in this endeavor. And do not want an angry BROWN charging me. That would ruin a good day, and the MRS. wouldn't be happy either! Having the ramrod TIG welded will certainly happen. It's thing I don't want to happen, especially if in back country. As for pictures, yes I'll definitely post for y'all. Your help in this endeavor is greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Southron Sr.]

Generally FFFg black powder will be a tad more energetic than an equal load of FFg. I suggest that you use Swiss Black Powder as it is not only strong but a bit more clean burning than other brands. You can order it here:

https://www.blackpowderva.com/

Also suggest you use RWS percussion Musket caps as they are fairly strong. Avoid the CCI Re-enactor musket caps like the plague as they are relatively weak....and you wouldn't want to have a misfire when you are confronting a bear.

On the morning of the hunt, I suggest you run several patches down the barrel to remove any excess oil. Then fire one shot to fully burn out any oil left trapped in the flash channel and/or the breech threads. Again, this is to prevent a misfire.

There are also several excellent "substitute black powders" out there like Pyrodex and others. Their only possible drawbacks is that they have a higher ignition point than real black powder-again increasing your chances of having a misfire.