Sharps nm1859 (original) what is correct powder load

[Peter]

I have an original Sharps nm1859, s/n 39293. I have had this gun for 20 years and want to fire it. I have had it checked out by a respected gunsmith in Central Virginia. It is in excellent condition and I want to fire it a few times, just to say I have done that and then put it back on the wall.

I have purchased 475 grain balls from Track of the Wolf and have new Goex 2fg. I have lube. I plan to load a ball into the breech until the rear of the ball is flush with the beginning of the rifling. My concern is the powder charge. I have filled the breech completely and it takes 85 grains to completely fill the cavity to the rear end of the sleeve which stands out just a couple of thousandths of an inch past the end of the barrel. The sleeve is frozen in place. The plate on the breech block is free and in good shape.

It seems to me 85 grains is too much a charge, but to put in less will leave an air pocket, and I have read this can be dangerous.

Can anyone advise me what is the best way to load this rifle with loose powder?

[John Holland]

For this this gentleman who only wants to fire a few shots just to enjoy the experience, I think I would suggest the following:

First of all, do not worry too much about an "air space" in the chamber as the Sharps is a breech loader and an original such as yours most likely will not seal very tight to begin with!

For loose powder & ball - Use a lubricated projectile dropped into the breech, put in a yet to be specified amount of Cream of Wheat (COW) for filler, then add an appropriate amount of powder. Close the breech, cap the nipple, and fire. DO NOT reopen the breech once it is closed, prior to firing, as this will introduce unfired powder into the spring recess in the forearm. This condition will cause an explosion in the forearm thereby blowing the forearm or parts thereof off the arm.

Many competitors have just just pushed the projectile into the breech and added however much powder they wanted with no regard to any filler or air space. It works.

Preferably, prepare a wrapped cartridge similar to the later model original Sharps round. Make a tube with the base flat with a piece of tissue paper or a piece of cigarette paper glued in place at the bottom. Place the powder in the tube, and any necessary filler, then glue or tie the lubed projectile in place. The flame from the cap will burn through the thin paper bottom easily and ignite the cartridge.

I strongly recommend not using a paper cartridge with a "tail" to be cut off when closing the breech block. Sharps quit using this method early on for the very reason mentioned earlier regarding the forearm.

Some people here will tell you to buy cardboard tubes, sized to your chamber, from one of our vendors. I don't think the price will warrant the expenditure for the limited number of shots you want to fire.

I quit shooting a Sharps many years ago because it was too labor intensive for me. So, these are just my thoughts, and nothing more!

[Maillemaker]

I shoot a Pedersoli 1859 Sharps.

These guns were historically notorious for gas leakages when fired. This causes the breech block to become fouled rather quickly. Even with my reproduction, it would foul within about 10 shots. Sometimes loose powder would fall down the face of the breech block and collect under the forestock, and then the ignition flash blowback could ignite it, blowing off the forestock. So, when loading loose powder into your Sharps, I would pay attention to whether or not powder is able to leak out of the chamber.

Don't worry about air gaps in the Sharps. It is impossible not to have an air gap in the Sharps. There is a cavity in the breech block face that can never be filled with powder. Every time you close the breech, there will be an air gap.

If you don't want to learn how to make paper cartridges (which I find fun), you can also use Yore's Tubes:

http://www.yoresupply.com/ShellTube.html

These tubes are basically a tube with a rubber sleeve on one end that holds the bullet. The bullet is a cork that keeps in the powder. You stick it in the chamber, bullet first, and push. The tube slides up the sleeve, knocking out the bullet into the chamber, and the powder spills into the chamber right behind the bullet. I have never used these, but a lot of people seem to like them.

Steve

[Peter]

Steve thank you very much! I have been worrying about the correct procedure and your recommendation helps a lot! Peter

[Peter]

Well this seems like a post well lined with land mines. Your "dangerous" quote intrigues me. Who said this? What is their evidence?
Your charge should be around 40 grains. If you want to fill up space make a cartridge out of newspaper. Make sure the breechblock shears off the ass end. Be sure to clean the remnants out before even thinking about reloading.
I used to shoot my Garret replica all the time with round ball and loose powder. Fine for plunking this way. To go to the line with one you need to consult the hard core Sharps guys.
I apologize to all you Sharps techies about to come on line with bonified advice.


Hello Eggman, thanks for your comments. I have read on various reloading sites that insufficient powder can cause detonation problems that can blow the receiver. I realize the sharps is not the same as a gun which fires a metallic cartridge, but nonetheless, the comments were enough to scare me. So I appreciate your advice! Peter

[Peter]

For this this gentleman who only wants to fire a few shots just to enjoy the experience, I think I would suggest the following:

First of all, do not worry too much about an "air space" in the chamber as the Sharps is a breech loader and an original such as yours most likely will not seal very tight to begin with!

For loose powder & ball - Use a lubricated projectile dropped into the breech, put in a yet to be specified amount of Cream of Wheat (COW) for filler, then add an appropriate amount of powder. Close the breech, cap the nipple, and fire. DO NOT reopen the breech once it is closed, prior to firing, as this will introduce unfired powder into the spring recess in the forearm. This condition will cause an explosion in the forearm thereby blowing the forearm or parts thereof off the arm.

Many competitors have just just pushed the projectile into the breech and added however much powder they wanted with no regard to any filler or air space. It works.

Preferably, prepare a wrapped cartridge similar to the later model original Sharps round. Make a tube with the base flat with a piece of tissue paper or a piece of cigarette paper glued in place at the bottom. Place the powder in the tube, and any necessary filler, then glue or tie the lubed projectile in place. The flame from the cap will burn through the thin paper bottom easily and ignite the cartridge.

I strongly recommend not using a paper cartridge with a "tail" to be cut off when closing the breech block. Sharps quit using this method early on for the very reason mentioned earlier regarding the forearm.

Some people here will tell you to buy cardboard tubes, sized to your chamber, from one of our vendors. I don't think the price will warrant the expenditure for the limited number of shots you want to fire.

I quit shooting a Sharps many years ago because it was too labor intensive for me. So, these are just my thoughts, and nothing more!


John, thank you! I will explore the tube route and see how that goes. Peter

[RaiderANV]

Better yet Peter......the Fall Potomac Regional Skirmish is this weekend at the Fort in Winchester. I take it you are in Virginny from your post so take a drive and bring the Sharps with you to the Fort. There will be plenty of Sharps shooters there and they will have plenty of ammo with them where you could shoot your Sharps a few times, maybe find out the history of it and then watch the competition. It's pretty addictive! Saturday morning around 8-9am arrival probably best for you to try your hand on the firing line with your gun. At 1:30pm the main range closes to shooting to set up for the team competitions.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, Peter:

Thank you for your preoccupation with safety.
May I please share a friendly comment:

Unfortunately a lot of misinformation exists on the Internet.

Just for the record and so that our Forum is not somehow tagged/linked with an error:

Based upon my forty years of collaboration with a PhD explosives chemist who consulted extensively on black powder and was at one time Head of The Chemical Engineering Society of The United States (east of the MS River), neither he nor anyone that he knew has been able to substantiate that traditional black powder can "detonate".

He was an expert witness in several court cases where detonation was alleged, but never proved. "Operator error involving smokeless were the authenticated causes."

There IS a court accepted laboratory test that proves when smokeless has been used. This test, developed in the 1980's, stopped all the frivolous product liability law suits directed at one maker of modern hunting muzzle loaders!

Smokeless powders and at least one black powder "substitute", upon which he did extensive research, have been shown to be capable of "detonation".

Very respectfully,

Kevin Tinny
Tammany Rgt, 42 NY, 13667y

[Hal]

And there are a plethora of people who do not know the difference between true BLACK POWDER and substitutes like Pyrodex, Triple 7, and others. Just go into a sporting goods store and ask for black powder and see how many of them point you to the Pyrodex and give you the deer in the headlights look when you say "No, I mean REAL black powder."

[Charlie Hahn]

Design Charge is 64 grains of musket powder in a paper or linen cartridge.

For you limited shooting I would suggest grease ball breech seated with a dowel, 38 grains of loose powder, either 2 or 3 fg. No filler is required and most likely will cause more issues than it solves.

Here is my cell 410-627-4726 please call to discuss, and I will be at the Fort this weekend. My shop will be open for a while Friday after 3.

Charlie Hahn

[Peter]

I'm sure from this you can see that it takes a special person to shoot a Sharps effectively on the line Peter. I'm also sure you're about to have a lot of fun. Regardless of the outcome, know this - you've created a handy dandy little resource on percussion Sharps shooting for the Internet.


Thank You.

[bobanderson]

The sleeve is frozen in place. The plate on the breech block is free and in good shape.

Hang on a second, Peter. I'm no expert, but in the original Sharps, the chamber sleeve was designed to float against the breech block so as to create a sort of seal to prevent leakage. Troopers would reset the sleeve to reduce the gas blow by, which can be pretty unpleasant. If your sleeve is frozen in place, you have no idea how large a gap will exist between the sleeve and gas check plate. We have experts in the N-SSA who have engineered a couple of different ways to keep that seal tight and your Sharps safe to shoot.

I suggest you make contact with Larry Flees (ljflees@hotmail.com or call him at 231-342-0821) and arrange to bring your Sharps to Fort Shenandoah during the Fall Nationals, October 5, 6 & 7. Larry can advise you on the best way to make sure your Sharps is safe enough for those few shots or, I believe, can set it up so you can enjoy it as much as you'd like. If I'm not mistaken, he can do that without ruining the collectibility of your great old Sharps.

I'll defer to Mr. Holland on this, but I'm almost positive that a frozen sleeve makes for a potentially dangerous gas leak situation.

[Peter]

Better yet Peter......the Fall Potomac Regional Skirmish is this weekend at the Fort in Winchester. I take it you are in Virginny from your post so take a drive and bring the Sharps with you to the Fort. There will be plenty of Sharps shooters there and they will have plenty of ammo with them where you could shoot your Sharps a few times, maybe find out the history of it and then watch the competition. It's pretty addictive! Saturday morning around 8-9am arrival probably best for you to try your hand on the firing line with your gun. At 1:30pm the main range closes to shooting to set up for the team competitions.


Hello Pat, thanks for the invitation! I wish I could make it but the date is filled for me. I hope to make it up there for the big event in October.

Peter Chandler

[Peter]

Hello, Peter:

Thank you for your preoccupation with safety.
May I please share a friendly comment:

Unfortunately a lot of misinformation exists on the Internet.

Just for the record and so that our Forum is not somehow tagged/linked with an error, based upon my forty years of collaboration with a PhD explosives chemist who consulted extensively on black powder, neither he nor anyone that he knew has been able to substantiate that traditional black powder can "detonate".

He was an expert witness in several court cases where detonation was alleged, but never proved.

Smokeless powders and at least one black powder "substitute", upon which he did extensive research, have been shown to be capable of "detonation".

Very respectfully,

Kevin Tinny
Tammany Rgt, 42 NY, 13667

That sounds good enough for me Kevin. Thanks very much for the input.

[Peter]

for this this gentleman who only wants to fire a few shots just to enjoy the experience, i think i would suggest the following:

First of all, do not worry too much about an "air space" in the chamber as the sharps is a breech loader and an original such as yours most likely will not seal very tight to begin with!

For loose powder & ball - use a lubricated projectile dropped into the breech, put in a yet to be specified amount of cream of wheat (cow) for filler, then add an appropriate amount of powder. Close the breech, cap the nipple, and fire. Do not reopen the breech once it is closed, prior to firing, as this will introduce unfired powder into the spring recess in the forearm. This condition will cause an explosion in the forearm thereby blowing the forearm or parts thereof off the arm.

Many competitors have just just pushed the projectile into the breech and added however much powder they wanted with no regard to any filler or air space. It works.

Preferably, prepare a wrapped cartridge similar to the later model original sharps round. Make a tube with the base flat with a piece of tissue paper or a piece of cigarette paper glued in place at the bottom. Place the powder in the tube, and any necessary filler, then glue or tie the lubed projectile in place. The flame from the cap will burn through the thin paper bottom easily and ignite the cartridge.

I strongly recommend not using a paper cartridge with a "tail" to be cut off when closing the breech block. Sharps quit using this method early on for the very reason mentioned earlier regarding the forearm.

Some people here will tell you to buy cardboard tubes, sized to your chamber, from one of our vendors. I don't think the price will warrant the expenditure for the limited number of shots you want to fire.

I quit shooting a sharps many years ago because it was too labor intensive for me. So, these are just my thoughts, and nothing more!

john, thanks for this advice. I hope to make it up to the fall finals and will try to look you up. Peter chandler

[mgmradio]

The boushing ( bushing ) in the breach on original Sharps is not meant to move when firing. It was only to be adjusted by an armorer . The plate in the breach was ment to move forward to seal against the boushing .
On at least one of the repro's the plate on the breach block is fixed and the bushing moves back against it( or is supposed to ). This didn't work well.

[Peter]

Hello, Peter:

Thank you for your preoccupation with safety.
May I please share a friendly comment:

Unfortunately a lot of misinformation exists on the Internet.

Just for the record and so that our Forum is not somehow tagged/linked with an error:

Based upon my forty years of collaboration with a PhD explosives chemist who consulted extensively on black powder and was at one time Head of The Chemical Engineering Society of The United States (east of the MS River), neither he nor anyone that he knew has been able to substantiate that traditional black powder can "detonate".

He was an expert witness in several court cases where detonation was alleged, but never proved. "Operator error involving smokeless were the authenticated causes."

There IS a court accepted laboratory test that proves when smokeless has been used. This test, developed in the 1980's, stopped all the frivolous product liability law suits directed at one maker of modern hunting muzzle loaders!

Smokeless powders and at least one black powder "substitute", upon which he did extensive research, have been shown to be capable of "detonation".

Very respectfully,

Kevin Tinny
Tammany Rgt, 42 NY, 13667y

Hello Kevin, Thanks for your comments. I feel reassured with the fact that your friend has a strong science background in gunpowders. Tht helps me make my mind up.

Peter Chandler

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, Peter:

Visit us, see how much more there is than our Forum.
Please consider joining. Finding you a Unit/Team is easy.
I accepted Lou Ruggerio's kind invitation just over a year ago AND
progressed via his significant fellowship.

No regrets. Have met and been selflessly helped by so many.
It's more about the people. We CARE and pass along lots of helpful ACTION.

Regards,
Kevin

[Peter]

Better yet Peter......the Fall Potomac Regional Skirmish is this weekend at the Fort in Winchester. I take it you are in Virginny from your post so take a drive and bring the Sharps with you to the Fort. There will be plenty of Sharps shooters there and they will have plenty of ammo with them where you could shoot your Sharps a few times, maybe find out the history of it and then watch the competition. It's pretty addictive! Saturday morning around 8-9am arrival probably best for you to try your hand on the firing line with your gun. At 1:30pm the main range closes to shooting to set up for the team competitions.


Thanks for the invitation, but I am committed this weekend. However, I am going to the October Nationals so I may see you there!

Peter Chandler

[Peter]

Design Charge is 64 grains of musket powder in a paper or linen cartridge.

For you limited shooting I would suggest grease ball breech seated with a dowel, 38 grains of loose powder, either 2 or 3 fg. No filler is required and most likely will cause more issues than it solves.

Here is my cell 410-627-4726 please call to discuss, and I will be at the Fort this weekend. My shop will be open for a while Friday after 3.

Charlie Hahn


Charlie thank you for the offer. I hope to call you this weekend. I would like to get up there tomorrow or Sunday, but unfortunately will be helping my daughter move to a new home. However, I am planning to go to the October nationals on the 5th and 6th of October and hope to get some input and then fire my rifle.

Peter Chandler