Bullet recommendation for Two-band Enfield

[Obi2winky]

Hello,

I recently purchased a 2 band Enfield as my very first muzzeloader. Does anyone have recommendations for what bullet I should go for? I tried doing my own research on this forum and compiled some candidates.
- Lyman 575213-NS 510gr New Style
- Lyman 575213-PH 566gr Parker Hale
- Lyman 577611 530 gr
- Moose Moulds 577 420gr Wilkinson
- NOE 576 526gr

I read that the British used paper patched Pritchetts, but does anyone bother with paper patching in the NSSA community for competition?

thanks!

[PapaRob]

Hello,

I recently purchased a 2 band Enfield as my very first muzzeloader. Does anyone have recommendations for what bullet I should go for? I tried doing my own research on this forum and compiled some candidates.
- Lyman 575213-NS 510gr New Style
- Lyman 575213-PH 566gr Parker Hale
- Lyman 577611 530 gr
- Moose Moulds 577 420gr Wilkinson
- NOE 576 526gr

I read that the British used paper patched Pritchetts, but does anyone bother with paper patching in the NSSA community for competition?

thanks!

Who’s the maker of the Enfield?

[Obi2winky]

It’s Parker Hale.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lou Lou Lou]

You want a minie 1-2 Thousanths under bore size. You need to measure bore and proceed from there. Not all guns take a.575

[Lou Lou Lou]

paper patching is not allowed. Measure bore first. Minie 1-2 Thousanths under bore size
P

[PoorJack]

I'll make this very easy for you.

I have a 1st gen Parker Hale, nothing done but skirmish sights and trigger. The bore measures .576 by pin gauge.

RCBS Hogdon minie with thin skirt base plug in the mold sized to 575. Pure lead, pot at 850. 43gr 3f Old Eynsford, RWS caps, Crisco only lube applied just prior to a skirmish to the sides and a hint in the base and I mean just a wee bit.

This load and gun will shoot into one hole at 50yds and about 2in at 100. I loaned this gun to a fellow skirmisher on my team last Nats and he hit 36 for 39 shots. I was standing next to him and it's no BS.

[Maillemaker]

Hi Obi2winky!

I have a Pedersoli P58. It has a 1:48 twist, which is quite a bit faster than the normal 1:70 or so you see with muskets like the P53. By hill's Equation, they should need a heavier (longer) bullet, and I have found that to be the case with mine, though others have reported different results.

I attempted to use the RCBS Hodgdon bullet, a popular N-SSA skirmishing bullet due to its massive lube rings and reasonable weight (about 420 grains as I recall), but I got keyholes even when properly sized to my Pedersoli P58, which takes .578-sized bullets. Others have reported good results with this bullet.

The 575213PH is/was a recommended bullet for the P58. It's basically the 575123OS with a truncated base plug which results in a shallower cavity, and thus a heavier bullet. I bought one but unfortunately it dropped bullets of pure lead at .575 (as it was supposed to). This was smaller than I would prefer.

One time I was doing a load workup with the RCBS-500M and 2F Goex powder, and I got a clover-leaf group at 50 yards off a bench with 60 grains 2F Goex. I have not invested any time confirming this as it is a heavy bullet and heavy charge and so more expensive to shoot than my Euroarms P53 with Whitacre barrel which shoots a lighter bullet with less powder and is a tack driver. However my daughter is only a few years away from shooting age so I may be revisiting the P58 again. The RCBS500M is a massive bullet with a thick skirt.

I also had a new core pin made up for a Lyman traditional minie (can't remember the mold number) mold with a truncated core pin. The Lyman mold produces a bullet with a thinner skirt than the RCBS500M, so I am hopeful it would shoot with less powder.

My feeling is the faster twist of the P58 is going to prefer, and perhaps require, a heavier bullet, which is probably why they invented the 575213PH.

Paper-patched bullets like the British Enfield style of cartridge are not currently permitted for N-SSA competition. Still, I have experimented with them for fun and historical education. I never did extensive load workups with them, but I can believe they were the ultimate evolution of muzzle-loading ammunition after trying them. They load easily and swab the bore with lube on loading.

http://4thla.weebly.com/paper-cartidge-patterns-and-information.html

<span class="username">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzA9aXEyT-c&amp;t=1s



Steve

[Maillemaker]

<span class="username">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoMji4yqUec

[Maillemaker]

<span class="username">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-9vnvHSF2Y

[Obi2winky]

paper patching is not allowed. Measure bore first. Minie 1-2 Thousanths under bore size
P

How does one measure the bore for muzzleloaders?

[Obi2winky]

I'll make this very easy for you.

I have a 1st gen Parker Hale, nothing done but skirmish sights and trigger. The bore measures .576 by pin gauge.

RCBS Hogdon minie with thin skirt base plug in the mold sized to 575. Pure lead, pot at 850. 43gr 3f Old Eynsford, RWS caps, Crisco only lube applied just prior to a skirmish to the sides and a hint in the base and I mean just a wee bit.

This load and gun will shoot into one hole at 50yds and about 2in at 100. I loaned this gun to a fellow skirmisher on my team last Nats and he hit 36 for 39 shots. I was standing next to him and it's no BS.

Is the one you have also of the 2 band length?

[Obi2winky]

Hi Maillemaker, thanks for those videos! I got into the firearms because of the hisotrical aspect and I felt like I have to try paper patching to justify buying a PH 2 band enfield :) Between the BritishMilitariaForum and here, I'm learning a lot!

I think it was a lot of your posts that I was reading about Wilkinson type bullets. I guess you didn't have much success with it on your 2 band. But the idea of the bullet is still cool

[Maillemaker]

Yup, I did not have much luck with either the Hodgdon nor the Wilkinson in my Pedersoli P58.

The way I "measure" my bore is I cast an oversized bullet and then go up in sizing dies until I find one that does not fit, and use the next .001" under that. But, you have to have the sizing dies to do that.

Another way is to use pin gauges.

Another way is to drill a drywall screw through your bullet, and then push it into the rifling and pull it out. Turn the bullet a bit and push it in again, until the lands have sized the bullet for you. Then take it out and measure the diameter.

Steve

[Hal]

Buy, or find someone who has, pin gauges. These look like metal dowels maybe 3" long, but are precision ground tools that you carefully insert into the bore in increasing sizes until you find the one that won't go. the size is the one right before that one. You would probably need .575" thru .580" or so. some may be a little larger, but most would fall into the range I mentioned.

[PoorJack]

Is the one you have also of the 2 band length?

Yup.

On the subject of the Hogdon and Wilkinson bullets, I tried them in a Euroarms P53 3band and 1862 Colt Contract 2 band with no real success. Best groups at 50yds were about 3in and that was in the Colt Contract. The Euroarms 3band, not so much. But to quantify that a bit, I found through further experiementation that the Hogdon does shoot decently in the Colt Contract when lubed with pure Crisco and nothing else added. That's a similar result to what happens in the Parker Hale but not as accurately.

The bullet that I've found to be pretty consistently accurate across several guns is the Rapine Trashcan or variations thereof. In both my Colt Contracts, it'll shoot almost one ragged hole. Not quite as good as the Hogdon in the PH, but pretty darn close. Lee used to make a version of it, but that mold is discontinued now, and the Lee mold drops a bullet right at 575+. Pass through a 575 sizer to clean it up a bit and it shoots very well in the PH and my Whitacre barreled musketoon. In this case, pure Crisco isn't the ticket for lube. I've had the results stated using Lens Lube.

Point is you're going to have to experiment with bullets, sizers, lube, powder charge and cap combinations to find out what works best for your gun. But every 1st gen Parker Hale I've heard of will all shoot the Hogdons very well, followed closely by the Trashcan.

[PapaRob]

Buy, or find someone who has, pin gauges. These look like metal dowels maybe 3" long, but are precision ground tools that you carefully insert into the bore in increasing sizes until you find the one that won't go. the size is the one right before that one. You would probably need .575" thru .580" or so. some may be a little larger, but most would fall into the range I mentioned.

Fantastic idea!. I just ordered a set precisely for bore sizing.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Pin gauges are used to measure bore. Our team carries a bore gauge for .575 to .580
We should be at Chaplin and Hopkinton

[Obi2winky]

Pin gauges are used to measure bore. Our team carries a bore gauge for .575 to .580
We should be at Chaplin and Hopkinton

Oh great! I will not be able to make it on the 28th but I might make it to Chaplin on the 29th. I'll keep you posted!

[Obi2winky]

Yup.

On the subject of the Hogdon and Wilkinson bullets, I tried them in a Euroarms P53 3band and 1862 Colt Contract 2 band with no real success. Best groups at 50yds were about 3in and that was in the Colt Contract. The Euroarms 3band, not so much. But to quantify that a bit, I found through further experiementation that the Hogdon does shoot decently in the Colt Contract when lubed with pure Crisco and nothing else added. That's a similar result to what happens in the Parker Hale but not as accurately.

The bullet that I've found to be pretty consistently accurate across several guns is the Rapine Trashcan or variations thereof. In both my Colt Contracts, it'll shoot almost one ragged hole. Not quite as good as the Hogdon in the PH, but pretty darn close. Lee used to make a version of it, but that mold is discontinued now, and the Lee mold drops a bullet right at 575+. Pass through a 575 sizer to clean it up a bit and it shoots very well in the PH and my Whitacre barreled musketoon. In this case, pure Crisco isn't the ticket for lube. I've had the results stated using Lens Lube.

Point is you're going to have to experiment with bullets, sizers, lube, powder charge and cap combinations to find out what works best for your gun. But every 1st gen Parker Hale I've heard of will all shoot the Hogdons very well, followed closely by the Trashcan.

Thank you for the detailed reply! I'll keep them in mind as I try experimenting.

[Southron Sr.]

The Enfield Naval Rifles and P-60 Army Rifles (both used identical barrels) with the 5 Land and Groove Barrel and with the "magic" 1 in 48" twist are the most accurate of ALL the 57/58 Caliber muzzleloaders of the Civil War period.

British NRA matches of the late 1850's and early 1860's allowed both active duty British soldiers and members of the British militia to compete in target matches. Any competitor that used either an Enfield Naval Rifle or P-60 AUTOMATICALLY had 10% of their final score deducted so as to create a "Level Playing Field" with those competitors that used regular P-53 "3 band" Enfields.

Confederate Sharpshooters were issued Enfield Naval Rifles and P-60 Army Rifles (when available) along with British made, paper patched ammunition. These rifles proved accurate out to 800-900 yards.

I HAVE ALWAYS LOVED THE IRONY THAT THE N-SSA, A TARGET SHOOTING ORGANIZATION, HAS BANNED THE USE OF PAPER PATCHED MINIE BALLS [THE MOST ACCURATE OF ALL .577/58 PROJECTILES] BECAUSE OF PREJUDICE!!!

The Lyman Parker Hale Mould sold by Dixie Gun Works is an excellent mould for the replica Parker-Hale Naval Rifles. Best of all, it is "N-SSA Legal" as long as you don't paper patch the projectile.

[PapaRob]

The Enfield Naval Rifles and P-60 Army Rifles (both used identical barrels) with the 5 Land and Groove Barrel and with the "magic" 1 in 48" twist are the most accurate of ALL the 57/58 Caliber muzzleloaders of the Civil War period.

British NRA matches of the late 1850's and early 1860's allowed both active duty British soldiers and members of the British militia to compete in target matches. Any competitor that used either an Enfield Naval Rifle or P-60 AUTOMATICALLY had 10% of their final score deducted so as to create a "Level Playing Field" with those competitors that used regular P-53 "3 band" Enfields.

Confederate Sharpshooters were issued Enfield Naval Rifles and P-60 Army Rifles (when available) along with British made, paper patched ammunition. These rifles proved accurate out to 800-900 yards.

I HAVE ALWAYS LOVED THE IRONY THAT THE N-SSA, A TARGET SHOOTING ORGANIZATION, HAS BANNED THE USE OF PAPER PATCHED MINIE BALLS [THE MOST ACCURATE OF ALL .577/58 PROJECTILES] BECAUSE OF PREJUDICE!!!

The Lyman Parker Hale Mould sold by Dixie Gun Works is an excellent mould for the replica Parker-Hale Naval Rifles. Best of all, it is "N-SSA Legal" as long as you don't paper patch the projectile.

Prejudice??? against what?

I always figured it was some kind of vague fire hazard thing.

[Eggman]

Right on PaPa Rod. Not really a fire thing though - as Jim Koch, lately spending his days picking burnt powder out of his right hand can attest, the paper ctges (or in this case, paper in ctges) were banned to forego cookoffs, which we still get a plethora of even though there is nothing discernable down there to cook anything off (thus we also prohibit dropping charges down the barrel directly below the chin). The guys that dream about going back to paper ctges also dream about going back to corn cobs for post constitutional cleanup.

[vljenewein]

How does one measure the bore for muzzleloaders?
Use bore gauges you can buy from Amazon. They are amazingly accurate, and should not cost a lot per each. You need one that is at least 0.001" over what your bore size is, and that's a good guess with calipers. Then use 0.001" steps down from that. They are usually accurate to 0.0005"