How much under bore diameter should Minie' ball be sized?

[mrappe]

I have finally received my pin gauges to measure the bore on my 1861 Pedersoli Springfield Musket and the .577 is the largest one to fit in the bore. I have cast some Minie' balls with my Lyman 575213 OS mold so I need to know what sizer to buy to get the balls to drop in and shoot accurately. I think I have seen suggestions of .001 and .002 under bore size. I am assuming that that is under the bore diameter but I want to make sure that the ball will not get hard to insert when the barrel has already been fired and is 'dirty'.

Thanks,
Mike

[marv762]

i have a 577 barrel and shoot a 575 sized bullet. i always run them through a sizing die to make sure they are true. some people don't size,but i have seen people trying to jamb one down the muzzle because the mold got a little to hot and threw some a little bigger. take all the issues off the plate before they happen. good luck Marv jr

[CAGerringer]

I have finally received my pin gauges to measure the bore on my 1861 Pedersoli Springfield Musket and the .577 is the largest one to fit in the bore. I have cast some Minie' balls with my Lyman 575213 OS mold so I need to know what sizer to buy to get the balls to drop in and shoot accurately. I think I have seen suggestions of .001 and .002 under bore size. I am assuming that that is under the bore diameter but I want to make sure that the ball will not get hard to insert when the barrel has already been fired and is 'dirty'.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike,
If the .577 fits, that's what you want to shoot. You can mold a .578 and size it to .577, but I wouldn't go smaller than .576.
If you use "Len's Lube" you won't have to worry about a fouled (dirty) bore.
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[stubshaft]

.002" maximum under bore size for me.

[Maillemaker]

Common wisdom is .001" - .002" under bore size.

What I do is go up in sizes with my sizing dies until I find the size that does not fit, then I back down .001".

Like Marv said, not everyone bothers with sizing, but it can true up your bullets and you make sure you won't end up with a slightly-oversized one, or one with flashing, that holds you up on loading.

Steve

[Kurt Lacko 7862]

Just curious what size bullet your getting from your mold? Most of the newer .575213 Lyman molds I've seen are throwing a .575 bullet?

Kurt

[Muley Gil]

I shoot a Parker-Hale 1858 Naval rifle. The bore is .577 and I use a .576 sized Minie.

[mrappe]

Just curious what size bullet your getting from your mold? Most of the newer .575213 Lyman molds I've seen are throwing a .575 bullet?

Kurt
It is hard to say since it varies within a few thousands depending on where I measure. Between 0.5775 and .5785. it takes a little effort to get them in so I thinks the sizer would help make them truer and even.

[mrappe]

I ordered a .575 Precision Sizing Die with Plunger from Lodgewood Mfg so now I need a recipe to the lube that used beeswax as I have a lot of it and I am going to load at least 50% of them in paper cartridges.

Thanks,
Mike

[Hal]

I use beeswax and olive oil mixed 50/50 by volume. I make a 'double boiler' of sorts by putting the ingredients in a Pyrex measuring cup and put the measuring cup in a boiler of water and heat on the stove. Stir it up when it's all molten and it will readily mix.

[Kurt Lacko 7862]

It is hard to say since it varies within a few thousands depending on where I measure. Between 0.5775 and .5785. it takes a little effort to get them in so I thinks the sizer would help make them truer and even.

Wow, you definitely need to size them. Just saw your later post good luck with your new sizer. Most lubes are bees wax based with any number of vegetable oils or tallows mixed in. 50-50 is a good starting point. Your about to have a alot of fun.

Kurt

[MR. GADGET]

If you are dropping a average 578 than I bet a 575 sizer will be too small.
Also depends on the sizer and how true it is the bullet may get deformed trying to bring a 5785 to 575.
May want to step it
What type sizer you using may have missed it.
If they are the threaded press type I may be able to help you. Got some sizers I plan to sell because I had started using a different press.

[mrappe]

I just got my sizer in the mail yesterday and I just finished sizing a bunch of them. The sizer/plunger that I got from Lodgewood seems to be working fine. It screws into the loading press that I have and just scrapes off the areas that are slightly to big. I the balls now appear to want to easily slide into the barrel but I have not allowed them to go all the way in since I don't want to have to fish them out. I have a lot of beeswax and some beef tallow to make the lube. I want to be able to put them in paper cartridges so I need that will not melt int the Texas heat and contaminate the powder. I have heard that the original cartridges were lubed with beeswax and tallow but I don't know the ratio that was used. Does anyone know?

Thanks,
Mike

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, Mike:

Some of my hard learned lessons and caring tips from others:

You can drill a 1/8" hole in the end of the sized minie, screw in a drywall screw and have a short, finger hold to test the first inch's fit. Ideally it should be just barely shy of touching the lands.

Can do the same thing and screw (1/4" GOOD FIT) minie onto the end of a cleaning rod and oil the bore. Slowly push it GENTLY down the bore, feeling for tight (resistance) or loose (less than usual resistance). If sized .001" UNDER LAND diameter, there may be NO resistance. You are checking for uneven bore diameter by FEEL. Doing this with a diameter that just rides the tops of the lands will give more feel.

Lightly/barely finger lubing the as-cast minie before sizing will reduce sizing stress and lead drag back on the base. I found that a LITTLE base edge flash did not hurt accuracy. If it bothers you, just press them onto a lightly oiled thick glass plate and rub the flash flat.

Bullet WEIGHT variation does matter! Try to hold them to +/- a grain to start. That's a two grain range. The oft-suggested +/- 1/2 grain may create too many rejects and it won't matter at the beginning.

Wind BLOWS these a little MORE than a 22LR target round. A 10 MPH sidewind needs to be offset. It can blow your minie more than you wish.

Bouncing a rod on the minie to make extra sure it is all the way down can create velocity changes and vertical dispersion. Test this and see.

Lube COMPOSITION will change how the lubed minie runs down a fouled bore.
I thought a particular, widely acclaimed lube would be just fine, but found that with a properly sized minie, I could only get 5 to 8 shots before gritty loading with the less easily gripped, short brass range rod allowed at skirmishes and enlarged groups. So, don't be too attached to your home brewed lube. Try Len's and Dewald's MCM. You need as LARGE a sized diameter, short of touching the lands that allows REASONABLY EASY LOADING of 10 to 15 consecutive shots before wiping. This allows you more than enough shots during a skirmish relay.

I found that extra tight that did engrave slightly did not tighten groups compared to barely under land diameter. And the engraving ones would not allow sufficient shots from a fouled bore.

For what it's worth, I also found that variations in the purity of my lead MATTERED, both for as-cast diameter and accuracy. Don't try to use mystery metal.

Trying to size over .0015" in a single pass created too much stress on the minie and when I started I had to stage in .001" to .0015" pre-LUBED steps.

Groups and accuracy should be best with 3F powder.

ALL this was shared with me by gray-beard skirmishers when I started.

All the best,
Kevin Tinny

[bobanderson]

...the balls now appear to want to easily slide into the barrel but I have not allowed them to go all the way in since I don't want to have to fish them out...

Thanks,
Mike

Slip a piece of steel (1/2" round stock, 3/8" socket extension, whatever) down the barrel before you try to fit a minie. Once it's in, you can tip it back out again.

[bobanderson]

Lube COMPOSITION will change how the lubed minie runs down a fouled bore.
I thought a particular, widely acclaimed lube would be just fine, but found that with a properly sized minie, I could only get 5 to 8 shots before gritty loading with the less easily gripped, short brass range rod allowed at skirmishes and enlarged groups. So, don't be too attached to your home brewed lube. Try Len's and Dewald's MCM. You need as LARGE a sized diameter, short of touching the lands that allows REASONABLY EASY LOADING of 10 to 15 consecutive shots before wiping. This allows you more than enough shots during a skirmish relay.

All the best,
Kevin Tinny

I make my own lube (a combination of beeswax, pure neatsfoot oil and Neutrogena soap called "N" Lube) that works winter or summer and does NOT have any fouling problems. I cast it into lubrisizer sticks and also pour it into small tubs to use as top cylinder lube in my revolver. Every skirmisher and BPCR guy I've shared the recipe with has proclaimed it the best they've ever used. Not bragging, just saying.

I'm a long time black powder shooter and as such, I don't buy anything I can make better myself, including lube.

[CAGerringer]

[QUOTE=bobanderson] "I make my own lube (a combination of beeswax, pure neatsfoot oil and Neutrogena soap called "N" Lube) that works winter or summer and does NOT have any fouling problems. I cast it into lubrisizer sticks and also pour it into small tubs to use as top cylinder lube in my revolver. Every skirmisher and BPCR guy I've shared the recipe with has proclaimed it the best they've ever used. Not bragging, just saying."

OK, Bob. We're all waiting with bated breath....what's the formula?
Can't wait to try "N-Lube".

Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[bobanderson]

Melt 8 oz of bees wax (by weight or volume, it's the same), 8 oz of pure neetsfoot oil (not the compound) and one bar of unscented Neutrogena soap (used by people with skin issues, you can get it at Meijer, WalMart and some pharmacies).
The soap has the highest melting point, so I get that melted into the oil first. After everything has melted together, shave a few flakes of Ivory soap and get that blended in as well. (It stops the Neutrogena from separating as the concoction cools. If you skip this step, your lube sticks will look like a parfait.)

As I said earlier, this was given to me by a 1000 yard black powder cartridge shooter because he noticed I was having severe fouling issues with a 45-90 with a 34" barrel. The last 4 inches were like a crusty plowed field. Once I switched to this lube, all of that ceased. If your bullet has enough grease grooves, you'll see that nice gooey ring at the muzzle that tells you it is working. The lube works great all year round.

Thanks to Chuck Fugate a couple of years ago for the Ivory soap idea. John Dam and Bruce Clark of the 1st Michigan are satisfied converts. (John named it "Bob-O-Lene".)

I made my own lubrisizer stick moulds using pvc pipe with wooden plugs and old aluminum arrow shafts to make the center hole. When I make a batch, usually a double batch, I cast the sticks and usually pour a couple of small tubs for revolver lube.

[Kevin Tinny]

Guess this thread has broadened:

Only one thing with regard to neatsfoot oil, please, and Bob KNOWS what he's doing:

Most, commonly available brands of neatsfoot oil, are formulated with INSECTICIDE to ward off insects in horse tack rooms. The insecticides are problematic in black powder bullet lube. They are often petro-chem compounds that burn and can leave deposits that increase fouling. They also ROT STITCHING in our accoutrements!

So-called and labeled "pure" neatsfoot oil usually contains mineral spirits, which is another petro-chem. So do those labeled "PRIME". LINCOLN brand "pure" DOES CONTAIN petroleum distillates.

The only truly pure brands I have found are ANGELUS and FEIBINGS, but READ the label as both brands make versions WITH insecticides and other petro-chem's.

Please keep inquiring so that you make informed progress.
Again, I am grateful for all the thoughtful sharing on this Forum.

Very respectfully,
Kevin Tinny

[Maillemaker]

Melt 8 oz of bees wax (by weight or volume, it's the same), 8 oz of pure neetsfoot oil (not the compound) and one bar of unscented Neutrogena soap (used by people with skin issues, you can get it at Meijer, WalMart and some pharmacies).

How big a bar of soap? It appears that they are 3.5 ounces. Is that the correct size?

Steve

[Maillemaker]

This looks like the 100% neatsfoot oil?

https://www.amazon.com/Fiebings-Neatsfoot-Natural-Preservative-Various/dp/B000HHLX98

Steve

[bobanderson]

Kevin gives me too much credit. "KNOWS what he's doing?" I just know what I know.

Steve, I use Fiebings and yes, it is a small bar.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

I ended up calling and speaking with an INFORMED techy to learn about true purity of a brand, because one brand with a container of "pure" also recited "mineral spirits" in the fine print. Techy could/would not explain the contradiction.
Maybe wise to get the "MSDS" sheet for review.

AND, if Bob Anderson says ok on mineral spirits, I would accept HIS guidance.

Kevin Tinny

[Maillemaker]

I looked up the MSDS sheets online for both the "Prime" compound and the 100% version, and the prime compound does seem to contain mineral spirits while the 100% pure does not seem to have any mentioned additives.

Steve

[CAGerringer]

Thanks for the recipe Bob. I'm certainly going to give Bob-O-Leen a try!
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[bobanderson]

I looked up the MSDS sheets online for both the "Prime" compound and the 100% version, and the prime compound does seem to contain mineral spirits while the 100% pure does not seem to have any mentioned additives.

Steve

Without knowing there was a difference, I used the compound once...ONCE.

Use the pure.