Schuetzen Powder Problems at the Spring Nationals

[paul_962]

I have been shooting with the N-SSA for 26 years and have been shooting black powder for longer than that. I have mostly used Goex but also used a lot of Elephant in the past.

I have been reading good things about Schuetzen and after trying it out in both my Henry and 2 band Enfield, I came to the conclusion that it was slightly more accurate and is certainly cheaper. So, I decided to start using it this year. No problems we're noted during my tests.

During the Spring Nationals, my gun fouled out 3 times. I made sure it was clean in between, dryed it out good, snapped lots of caps, tried 3 different types of caps, and switched cones. Even trickeling powder down the cone wouldn't touch it off. I have never had this problem in all my years of shooting with the organization and the only thing I'm doing different is switching the powder manufacturer. I'm using the same rifle I've used for years. One other guy on our team also fouled out during a round and after talking to him, he also just switched to Schuetzen Powder. I'm using FFF just like I always have.

I took note of the large number of fouled muskets in general this year. Obviously, weather conditions weren't great but I've also shot in driving rainstorms without these issues. Has anyone else had problems and determined if they were related to damp conditions and Schuetzen Powder. If so, maybe I need to carry Goex for those not so ideal conditions? Wondered if I was the only one noticing a possible trend.

[Maillemaker]

I used a batch of Schuetzen powder once. I had called up Back Creek (I think) and they were out of Goex so I took Schuetzen. I find it to be a very dirty powder and I will never buy it again. At the time, I was experimenting with the Moose Wilkinson, which has a very tiny lube groove.

With Schuetzen, I could only get off about 3 shots before the barrel started getting crunchy on loading. With Goex, I can shoot them pretty much indefinitely. I even tried the vaunted "SPG" lube that folks suggested - no difference. It was the powder.

Now the new Schuetzen caps are awesome. Way hotter than the Dynamite Nobel caps.

Steve

[John Holland]

Just as a clarification for our newer shooters, the groove/grooves of the Austrian/Wilkinson bullet are not for lube. The bullet is a compression bullet with the grooves intended to provide the space for the base to compress and obturate into the rifling. If the grooves have anything more than a very thin coating of lube, as applied via Eddy Schneeman's method, the bullet will not obturate properly causing a loss of accuracy. The original design of this projectile called for it to be paper patched with the paper carrying the lubrication.

To address the OP, I also witnessed an overwhelming percentage of fouled muskets as compared to the reduced number of shooters on the line during 1st Phase Musket at the past National. The quality of the powder used may very well be a factor if those individuals were also using Scheutzen powder. Perhaps some of those individuals will add their experiences to this topic.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Other than Goex and Swiss the only other powder I have ever shot was the old Elephant. I shot both 2f and 3f with Elephant. Although I had to use 3 grains more compared to Goex with my musket, other than being dirtier, it performed OK. How does the Schuetzen compare to the old Elephant? Do you have to use more of it to get the performance as Goex?

[Muley Gil]

I started shooting black powder back in 1969. I have always shot DuPont (now Goex), most of it being FFFg, with a little bit of FFg here and there. I have never had a cook off (knock on wood) and have shot in the hot sunshine, the damp, rainy Fort Shenandoah weather, pretty spring time temps and in the snow.

Maybe I have just been lucky. :rolleyes:

[geezmo]

I've been shooting NSSA matches since the spring nationals in 1970 and outside the NSSA for several years prior to that. Always shot DuPont/GOEX. Started with 2F and then after shooting carbine with 3F I switched to 3F for everything, just to keep it simple. I shoot mostly original musket or some with Bill Large barrels, original with the breech loaders. I usually shoot a whole team match without wiping between relays, occasionally I do. I mostly use Lens lube, occasionally I'll try others. Like Gil, I've shot in all kinds of weather and have never had cook off. I only remember once having fouled on the line. Like Gil, maybe I'm lucky. I have no secret other than I am fanatical about cleaning firearms after I get home from a match. I use the hot soapy water pumping method, pull the nipples, blow out all vent pass ways, dry and lube everything well. I usually use WD 40, sometimes Ballistol. It doesn't take that long. I've purchased firearms from people who have supposedly cleaned them and it's amazing how much crap comes out. I'd start by reviewing your cleaning procedures.

[Maillemaker]

Just as a clarification for our newer shooters, the groove/grooves of the Austrian/Wilkinson bullet are not for lube.

The Moose Wilkinson has a small lube groove. But you are correct, the giant groove is not for lube.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/4865f0_af4b24ad08a4abe7f56452c1fb19b804.jpg/v1/fill/w_569,h_350,al_c,q_90/4865f0_af4b24ad08a4abe7f56452c1fb19b804.jpg

Steve

[bobanderson]

Now the new Schuetzen caps are awesome. Way hotter than the Dynamite Nobel caps.
Steve

I also heard the new caps were "hotter" so I decided to do some testing. Using my Maynard, I inserted pieces of target paper and then 100% cotton cleaning patches between the breach and the receiver and snapped both types of caps to see the damage.

For both types of materials, there was much more noticeable damage done by the RWS caps. Interestingly, the Schuetzen caps were louder going off, which might explain why people think they are hotter.

This is just what I found with my limited testing, but I figure I spend way too much time casting, loading and practicing to potentially blow a shot because I wanted to save $3 a thousand on caps.

It is still possible the new caps will work better in your gun, and if they don't you can use them for snapping caps before and after the event.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

The Wilkinson bullet shown is an old design from Greg Edington. Greg told me many years ago that the small groove on the bullet is a fletching groove. It had nothing to do with lubrication. Of course, skirmishers put lube anywhere possible on a bullet.

[Maillemaker]

All I know is the Scheutzen sound louder and they burn my fingers when holding the arm. The guy at Back Creek also said they were hotter than Dynamite Nobel. But, he's selling them, so who knows.


Greg told me many years ago that the small groove on the bullet is a fletching groove. It had nothing to do with lubrication.

Whatever you want to call them, it's the only groove on the bullet that can hold any lube. I dip-lube mine after pre-heating the bullets, so some lube does run up into the compression groove, but it mostly runs out. I suppose whatever was left could get slung out on firing maybe.

Steve

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Having shot the Wilkinson many years ago, I learned that using a reasonable quantity of a soft lube in that nice big lube groove worked quite well. As long as you don't fill it up with some kind of rock hard lube that would keep the wedge from compressing, you will be fine. I actually thought that the two wedge Wilkinson was a really neat bullet, but it weighed 540 grains. But, the compression worked great with the two wedges and all that weight. Does anyone shoot the two wedge Wilkinson?

[bobanderson]

I hardly know what to say about this thread. I wouldn't be surprised if Bob Anderson isn't permanently banished from this forum. Who ever heard of someone providing iron clad evidence to support a point of view (superior RWS cap blast) in the N-SSA. And then the guy rubs salt into the gaping wound he inflicted on poor Steve with the snap caps suggestion. And then Anderson completely undermines his own credibility by claiming he "practices." And then there is Steve calling that tiny little insignificant indention of the lower rim of that Wilkinson bullet a grease groove. And then he goes on to assert that he can shoot that greaseless thing all day with nary a wipe. We'll not even mention his temerity in challenging John Holland's statement. My gosh, it's off to the liquor cabinet for me!

If they banish me, you gotta go for creating a new word.
"Indention" instead of "indentation?"
Harry Truman would ask you for a return to normalcy.

[bobanderson]

What "normalcy" are you referring to?

Harry is credited with inventing the word in a State of the Union address.

[Hal]

Will Trump be credited with inventing "Bigly"?

[Muley Gil]

Harry is credited with inventing the word in a State of the Union address.

No, it was Warren Harding.

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/normalcy

[bobanderson]

No, it was Warren Harding.

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/normalcy

Thanks, Gil.

Ever noticed how often something you learned 50+ years ago is now somehow different?

The word was once centrifugal and now it's centripetal, for instance.

Pluto was a planet, then it wasn't and now it is again (or is it?)

Of course, it could be that my memory has turned to mush...

[Muley Gil]

Sheriff Andy Taylor looks at his barber and sez, "Floyd, Calvin Coolidge didn't say EVERYTHING!" :D

[Maillemaker]

nobody really likes the Schuetzen Powder in the N-SSA

I don't know if you can go for universal condemnation from a few replies here in this forum. I just know that initially I almost gave up on the Moose Wilkinson, thinking that it did not have enough lube-carrying capability, until I tried it with Goex and found it worked spectacularly and my fouling problems were powder-related and not lube-related. I used up all of it that I bought and I don't recall having problems with it with traditional expanding ball bullets.

Since I love the Moose Wilkinson bullet, though, I won't use Shuetzen anymore. I'm a Goex Guy. :)

Steve

[jonk]

I shot schutzen powder for about 2 years before doing tests with a chronograph. They said that while it did just fine in breechloading guns and cartridge guns, it was inconsistent with a minie ball. So, I switched back to Goex. But I did go through a lot of it, in all kinds of weather.

I never noticed that it was appreciably dirtier than Goex, though the erratic velocities out of the musket might contribute to more fouling.

I think I can recall fouling out once at ANY skirmish, and that was with Goex. Yeah, I get the occasional failure to fire with a sharps if the block pinches the tube, but I'm not counting that. The foul out was with a 61 Springfiield style lock where the flash has to make a few right angles to get to the powder, and was ultimately found to be caused by a fouled-in gap between the cone and the bolster.

I do not put much stock in the idea that it was the powder, for one simple reason. It doesn't matter how clean or dirty the powder burns: you adjust what YOU are doing to fit the circumstance. After one foul out, you should have religiously cleaned the gun after every relay, pure and simple. Now, if you WERE doing that... well then it really is a mystery.