Usage of the Pattern 1858 two-band rifle-musket

[bones92]

Does anyone have a link that describes actual usage of Pattern 1858 Enfield rifle-muskets in the ACW? I understand there was a Pattern 1858 used in India that was bored out to smoothbore to allow usage of round ball, but I'm referring to the 1858 rifle-musket that is essentially just a shorter version of the Patt' 1853.

Or perhaps someone can briefly describe it's usage here.

Thanks!

[Maillemaker]

The Pattern P1858 is not simply a shorter version of the P1853. It has 5 groves and a faster 1:48 twist.

This video briefly mentions the evolution of the P58:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmflqQfgXgM

He has several great videos concerning British firearms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJUJkK4XJ3c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjtJF7pyhZE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6-KGjG3PrE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_We_aiQshY


Steve

[bones92]

Thank you much, Steve. This should be helpful.

[Muley Gil]

The 1853 pattern Enfield is a rifle musket. It has a 39" barrel. The 1858 with brass fittings is a naval rifle. It has a 33" barrel. There was also a 1856 sergeant's rifle with iron fittings. It also has a 33" barrel (IIRC).

[bobanderson]

The Pattern P1858 is not simply a shorter version of the P1853. It has 5 groves and a faster 1:48 twist.

This video briefly mentions the evolution of the P58:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmflqQfgXgM

He has several great videos concerning British firearms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJUJkK4XJ3c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjtJF7pyhZE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6-KGjG3PrE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_We_aiQshY


Steve

Thanks for the links, Steve. I have both Enfields and used to own a very accurate Volunteer Rifle
that I sold in a weak moment. Sure miss that one.

[buckeye]

The Pattern P1858 is not simply a shorter version of the P1853. It has 5 groves and a faster 1:48 twist.

This video briefly mentions the evolution of the P58:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmflqQfgXgM

He has several great videos concerning British firearms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJUJkK4XJ3c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjtJF7pyhZE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6-KGjG3PrE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_We_aiQshY


SteveRob from Canada does a very nice job explaining various British Martial Arms and their history. If you're on YouTube a lot subscribe to his channel. Best part is he's great at answering whatever questions you may have too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Curt]

Hallo!

In brief...

In my heresies it is next to impossible to differentiate between "Enfield" rifle models in ACW usage due to the really poor and loose terms and descriptions used. It also does not help any with we do not know whether entries for 'rifles' were for rifles or actually rifle-muskets.

The four patterns of the P1853 rifles tend to be frequently just 'short rifles" without any mention of P1856 Short R aka Army, P1858 Short Rifle No 2, the P1858 Short R aka Naval, the (1860 Short R, and the P1861 Short R.

Most US and CS imports were the P1856 'Army."

I am forgetting the source, :( ...but believe it was one of the Whisker/Hartzler/Yantz books that lists an entry for 1800 (2,000?) Enfield Naval Rifles.

After the Sepoy Mutiny, the British made an effort to not make a whole lot of (visual :) ) difference between British and "native" or colonial troops in arms. The outgrowth was the P1858 smoothbore musket. As the companion arm for sergeants they came out in 1858 with the P1858 smoothbore "Sergeant's Fusil" which was a "variant" of the P1856 Sergeant's Fusil which instead of the .577 rifled bore was a smoothbore .656.

Curt


Curt

[Southron Sr.]

The P-58 Enfield Naval Rifle with the "magic" 1 in 48" Twist, 5 land and groove "heavy" barrel proved to be so accurate in tests conducted by the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia in 1862, it was selected as the "issue" arm for the ANV "Sharpshooter Battalions" when it was available. When supplies of P-58 and P-60/61 Short Rifles ran out, Confederate Sharpshooters were issued regular P-53 Enfields.

In a few cases, British made Whitworth and Kerr Rifles were imported and issued to Sharpshooters, but the numbers of those rifles were very low compared to the numbers of .577 Enfield rifles available.

The proviso was to exhibit its best accuracy, the P-58-P-60/61 had to be used with British made ammunition. Caleb Huse, the Confederate arms purchasing agent in Liverpool purchased and shipped to the Confederacy Enfield Pritchett cartridges made by Eley So, when possible, Confederate Sharpshooters were supplied with the British made Eley Pritchett cartridges.

The British NRA conducted target matches all over the British Isles in the 1860's that were open to members of the regular British Army and civilian "Volunteers" (militia members.) The standing rule was that because the P-58 was so accurate, to "level the playing field," any competitor that used a P-58 in match competition had 10% of his final score deducted! This was because the P-58 Navy Rifle was so much more accurate than the regular P-53 Enfield.

College Hill Arsenal had a Confederate P-58 Naval Rifle for sale a while back, here is what they said about it:

https://collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=934

[Southron Sr.]

Fred Ray has written an excellent book going into the history of the ANV Sharpshooter Battalions. I cn highly recommend it:

http://sharpshooters.cfspress.com/

That book and my post above should give you all the information you desire about the "useage" of Confederate P-58's during the War of Northern Aggression.

Oh yes, when it comes to replica's of the P-58, both Parker-Hal and Pedersoli "got it right" with their replicas of the P-58 because they used the "magic" 1 in 48" Twist along with the 5 land and groove "heavy" barrel.

Armi-Sport really "botched it" when it came to their replica of the P-58....they used a 1 in 60 something inch Twist....AAAARRRRGGGG!

[Southron Sr.]

Fred Ray has written an excellent book going into the history of the ANV Sharpshooter Battalions. I cn highly recommend it:<br><br>http://sharpshooters.cfspress.com/<br><br>That book and my post above should give you all the information you desire about the "useage" of Confederate P-58's during the War of Northern Aggression.<br><br>Oh yes, when it comes to replica's of the P-58, both Parker-Hal and Pedersoli "got it right" with their replicas of the P-58 because they used the "magic" 1 in 48" Twist along with the 5 land and groove "heavy" barrel.<br><br>Armi-Sport really "botched it" when it came to their replica of the P-58....they used a 1 in 60 something inch Twist....AAAARRRRGGGG!<br>
<br>

[Grayrock Volunteer]

I am forgetting the source, :( ...but believe it was one of the Whisker/Hartzler/Yantz books that lists an entry for 1800 (2,000?) Enfield Naval Rifles.


The English Connection gives the figures for known Confederate imported P1858 Naval Rifles as 2,700. 1,000 of these rifles were purchased for the Confederate Navy and were imported with P1859 cutlass bayonets while the remaining guns were army purchases and were delivered with "standard" saber bayonets. All of these rifles are inventory control numbered on their buttplates with the Navy rifles being 1-1,000 and the Army rifles being mixed in with the 10,000 numbered "short" Enfield rifles delivered by Sinclair Hamilton and Company.


For clarification for those who are not familiar, the P1856 Sergeant's Fusil for India Service was made to accept a socket bayonet rather than a saber bayonet like all other British military rifles of the period. Otherwise it is quite similar to other British rifles.

Indian "Native troop" arms are a whole other ballpark and Mr. Schmidt has summed them up quite neatly above.

[Southron Sr.]

In early 1861, when Georgia seceded from the Union, Governor Joe Brown was not sure if Georgia would be an independent republic or a member of a Southern Confederacy.

Regardless, Brown wanted Georgia to have enough arms to issue to its troops.

Governor Brown commissioned Edward Anderson ( a former Naval officer and Mayor of Savannah) on his trip to England to purchase arms for Georgia in 1861.

Anderson purchased a quantity of Enfield Rifles for Georgia. While most were standard P-53 "commercial" Enfields, included in that shipment were a quantity of 2 band "Native Sergeant Fusils. As stated in a post above, they were slightly modified P-56 Enfields, but they took a P-53 Rifle's socket bayonet rather than a saber bayonet as often used on the P-58 Naval Rifle.

[hobbler]

And my Pietta 1853 has a 48" twist.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Although Pedersoli used the correct 5 land and groove 1/48 twist original specs for their barrel, it does not have progressive depth rifling like the originals. The progressive depth rifling makes a big difference with some bullets, especially with lighter loads.