Question on modifying the front sight of a Spiller and Burr

[Maillemaker]

I bought myself a Pietta Spiller and Burr for Christmas. I have yet to take it to the range, but I'm betting it shoots high, as most revolvers do, which will necessitate a new front sight.

A friend of mine recently made these modifications to his (not for N-SSA shooting):

https://i.imgur.com/bpbGZ0jl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/l8auh8ql.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PNpaRpFl.jpg

I have considered simply replacing the short post with a taller one, but my fear is that such a thin post, being roughly 1/4" high, will easily snag on anything and perhaps snap the post off, even if I solder it in place. So I like the blade idea as it would not be as fragile.

I've read section 19.9.1 of the rules.

I think the relevant parts are:

a. Front sights, except as noted under rule 19.9.1(l), may be modified or rebuilt provided the resulting sight is a metallic blade on an original type base, in the original location for the model of arm concerned, not to extend beyond the base and with no limitation as to height or thickness of blade.

and

k. Front sights on revolvers and long arms may be secured to the barrel using a dovetail base in the original position. The attachment of the barrel-sight combination, after the insertion of the dovetail, must conform to the original configuration. The sight must be permanently affixed. There can be no method of adjustment built into the front sight.

It sounds to me like the blade would "extend beyond the base", and they would not "conform to the original configuration".

So, I'm guessing I'm out of luck for using this kind of blade modification for my Spiller and Burr for N-SSA shooting?

Steve

[Eggman]

I have yet to take it to the range, but I'm betting it shoots high, as most revolvers do, which will necessitate a new front sight.
Steve
My 1851 Navy repro shoots low left. Where do you get these crazy notions Steve?

[Maillemaker]

My 1851 Navy repro shoots low left. Where do you get these crazy notions Steve?

You probably shoot 2 grains of powder in it, right? :)

Every single revolver I have has needed a taller front sight to hit point of aim at 25 yards.

Steve

[Eggman]

Yeah but Steve these are Italian guns. Let's hope cross eyed Luigi didn't run your bore out crooked.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

No you can't make it like that. N-ssa rules ..... I see you read them ............. short & sweet is to make it the same big diameter as the base of the sighting pin, yes you can make it shorter or taller.

[Maillemaker]

Yeah, that's what I figured. That "big" diameter is .106". I'm afraid a .106" pin sticking off the end of the barrel will be weak. We'll see.

Steve

[threepdr]

Too Bad, the rules allow the massaging of other sights in so many ways.

But based on the rules a tall post sight IS allowed?

[Maillemaker]

Yup. Has to "conform to the original configuration". Which in this case is going to be a 1/4" pin sticking out the top of the barrel. :)

Steve

[Curt]

Hallo!

IMHO...

It is easier to understand the spirit or intent of "conform to the original configuration."

But not quite so easy when we visualize versions obviously NOT found on the original firearms such as 1/4 inch rods or mini-axes serving as front sights one could chop wood with. Or say "peep" (aperture) holes on M1855/M1861 rear sight leaves.

"Conform" is hard to operationalize when we try to mix History with modern range target shooting sometimes.

Curt

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Please read the rules for the correct information for front sight modifications. It is very straight forward.

[Maillemaker]

Bruce,

I quoted them.

Steve

[P.Altland]

Bruce,

I quoted them.

Steve

Instead of soldering a taller pin in, have the sight machined with a dovetail base. Won’t snap off that way. Same basic solution as the R&S.


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[Maillemaker]

Instead of soldering a taller pin in, have the sight machined with a dovetail base. Won’t snap off that way. Same basic solution as the R&S.

But then you'll just have a taller pin attached to a dovetail base. I guess it will be stronger if it is machined as part of the base. Either way it's going to look kind of strange with this 1/4" pin sticking out the top of the barrel. We'll see how much of a front sight it needs. I'll probably go the solder route to start with because it's much easier for me to drill out and solder in a pin than it is to hand cut a dovetail. Plus I think the dovetails are ugly. :)

Steve

[Eggman]

Good plan Steve and also "correct." I have a "fun" Colt Patterson from Replica Arms with a half inch high sight post I put on it. Yeah it looks a bit strange but that's better than shooting three feet over the target. It's been on there since '75. Recon it will last quite a while if you don't open beer bottles with it. I always keep a bottle of Miracle Glue handy just in case.

[ms3635v]

I had a Rogers and Spencer and of course the front sight was too short. I got a piece of solid brass round stock of the same diameter as the sight the revolver came with and replaced the old pin with the new and epoxied it into place. Easy fix and no dovetail to machine.

[Maillemaker]

Did some load workups yesterday. As expected, the thing shoots a good foot+ high. I have no idea what you could do to make these things shoot 2" low. I was aiming at the bottom of the black - 6 o'clock hold.

Here we can see, from right to left, 8 grains, 10 grains, and 12 grains 3F Goex. 12 grains seems the best. This is off a bench at 25 yards:

https://i.imgur.com/GnhcDtJl.jpg

Next we have 14 and 16 grains. The group was clearly opening up so I did not go any higher:

https://i.imgur.com/I2sCw67l.jpg

So, clearly we need a taller front sight post. Much taller.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Put the new front sight post on today:

https://i.imgur.com/mXAwBl0l.jpg

It's deliberately a hair tall so I can file it to point of aim at the range.

Steve

[Steve Weems]

Steve—the late great Tom Ball recommended that the single best improvement to a stock revolver was to have a target cone mod to the breech. This should not cost that much for a significant improvement. He did this for me and I was able to usually shoot mid to high 40’s with a stock Uberti Remington when I was active in regional competition. I did have him dovetail a tall front sight.

Best wishes for success with your Spiller & Burr.

[Maillemaker]

I've got an 1858 Remington that has been with Ball Accuracy for since the Fall Nationals 2016. I hope it is done by this coming Nationals (I want it back, done or not). I'm hoping it shoots like Annie Oakley. If not, I'm going to send one off to Charlie Hahn.

Steve

[bobanderson]

I was fortunate enough to buy a gently used forcing cone chamfering kit from a fellow skirmisher who was done with it. I've used it many times and it has paid for itself many times over.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/handgun-tools/barrel-tools/chamfering-tools/complete-38-45-chamfering-kit-prod26157.aspx

[Maillemaker]

Hey Bob,

How does the kit work? Do you need a lathe to use it?

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Found this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtIBv6VIQGE

Wow, I need to get one of these!

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Hey, look at this!

https://4drentals.com/

Steve

[Maillemaker]

So what would be a good cutter to use for black powder .44 revolvers?

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/handgun-tools/barrel-tools/chamfering-tools/11-38-45-intermediate-chamfering-kit-prod26161.aspx

Looks like there are several choices in 44 caliber in terms of "cutter diameter".

How do you know which size cutter diameter to choose?

Or do we use 45 caliber tools for our black powder revolvers?

Steve

[edrutecki]

I've got an 1858 Remington that has been with Ball Accuracy for since the Fall Nationals 2016. I hope it is done by this coming Nationals (I want it back, done or not). I'm hoping it shoots like Annie Oakley. If not, I'm going to send one off to Charlie Hahn.

Steve

I had Charlie do up a revolver for me last Fall. It was done in like 6 weeks! No BS or excuses. Awesome job!!!!!!!!!!!! Very reasonable price. I highly recommend Charlie. I've had him do a couple of jobs for me over the years and have always been pleased with his work. You will not be disappointed!

[Maillemaker]

Yeah I should have gone to Charlie to begin with.

Steve

[bobanderson]

Hey Bob,

How does the kit work? Do you need a lathe to use it?

Steve

It's a hand operated tool that has a pilot for the muzzle end, and an 11 degree cutter that mounts onto a rod that you use to cut the forcing cone area. Every revolver I've done this to has shown improved accuracy and smaller groups.

[Maillemaker]

Hey Bob, what size cutter do you recommend for .44 and .46 percussion revolvers?

Steve

[bobanderson]

Hey Bob, what size cutter do you recommend for .44 and .46 percussion revolvers?

Steve

The kit I bought has only one tapered cutter that has worked for .22 up to and including .45 caliber forcing cones. I turn it by hand, use lots of oil and go slow until I get what I want. The tool itself might be 1/2" in diameter. I've seen forcing cones that appeared rough, had sharp edges or had tooling marks. This cleans them up nicely.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/handgun-tools/barrel-tools/chamfering-tools/38-45-basic-chamfering-kit-prod514.aspx?avs%7cCaliber_1=AAX_41%2bCaliber%2b(x zzx410-xzzx412)%7cBBB_44%2bCaliber%2b(xzzx429-xzzx430)

[Maillemaker]

OK, Bob, I'm going to give it a go.

I'm going to do some before and after load workup tests to see if I can definitively show improvement from the forcing cone alone.

Thanks!

Steve

[bobanderson]

OK, Bob, I'm going to give it a go.

I'm going to do some before and after load workup tests to see if I can definitively show improvement from the forcing cone alone.

Suggestion,
Slug the bore and compare that to the diameter of each chamber in the cylinder. Your problem might exist before the forcing cone.

You might also check for misalignment where each chamber meets with the barrel.

Do you have a Ransom Rest?

[Maillemaker]

Hi Bob,

I have slugged my revolvers before, I believe I do have one that needs the cylinders reamed out but most of the newer guns seem to have correctly-sized chambers. But I will double-check all of them as I work through them.

I've also used my bore scope to take pictures of the various revolvers barrel-to-chamber alignment. Most of them are good:

This is my Uberti 1858 stainless. It is the one I think has an under-sized chamber:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2C7-zIcFzA

This is a Pietta Colt. This one looks pretty good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U17NDlvRFCw

This is a cheap-o Walmart Blister Pack Pietta "1851 Navy" in .44 caliber. The barrel is canted relative to the frame, and as you can see the lock-up alignment is poor. You can see why these end up in blister packs in Walmart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oUtfKHl-u8

Here is my Uberti Walker. It also looks pretty good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0ObGvxxofg

I do not have a Ransom Rest. I just use one of these:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/682659/caldwell-rock-jr-rifle-front-shooting-rest

Steve

[bobanderson]

Your borescope works a lot better than mine, unless it's just because you're in a much shorter barrel. Never tried it.

Not sure if you can see misalignment between the chamber and the barrel. I've seen one guy use a 7/16" drill bit, but that's pretty crude. What I'd do is buy the correct size minus plug gauge from Travers Tool and then see if it slips down the barrel and into the chamber when the hammer is at full cock. The good news here is that reaming the forcing cone will help a misaligned ball achieve a better entry into the barrel. At least that's what I suspect.

A friend loaned me his Ransom Rest so I made a set of grip adapters for my 1858 Remington Tom Ball revolver. It showed me a lot about the accuracy potential of my load, but trying to reset the rest using only the crude sights of a revolver was difficult. I've since acquired a laser bore sighter that I'll use to reset it to the same spot at 25 yards, but that project has been delayed because Spring in Michigan has been delayed...big time!

[Maillemaker]

The borescope is one of those cheapo-o Chinese jobbies. I bought it off of a facebook ad for $15. First one ran about 5 minutes and then produced static on screen. They replaced it. This one works fine. It's got like a 6 foot flexible cable that goes with it. It's kinda neet. It's waterproof. This weekend I'm going to use it to look inside my RV generator housing.

Steve