Is this a Garrett 1863 Sharps?

[762x51]

I received a percussion 1863 Sharps Carbine today that I was told was a Garrett Sharps. There are no Garrett markings at all. Would you please take a look at the photos I just posted on my web site and let me know what you think. The photo below is of markings on the barrel and it looks like someone tried to erase the word "Pedersoli".

Maybe it is a Garrett - Did Pedersoli make some of them for him?

More photos here: http://www.autochart.com/1863sharps.htm

Thanks in advance -
Orin

6401

[762x51]

The date code "BB" = 1992 and without question the rifle was made by Pedersoli 5 or so years after Garrett went out of business.

It's interesting that the lock has a Lawrence Pellet Primer on it and the serial number on the Lock matches the frame and barrel.



6402

[John Holland]

It seems as if you have pretty much answered your own questions, and I agree with your conclusions.

[P.Altland]

How many L&Gs in the barrel?


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[Ron The Old Reb]

I bought my Garret Sharps in the fall of 1985 or 1986 and was one of the last one's made. The date on it is AN 1985. it also has a patch box on the right side of the stock I don't know if they all had patch box's or not. But the stock is made from a nice piece of walnut not the light colored wood that yours is. The side plate has Garret stamped on it and there is a cartouche on the left side under the saddle ring with Garret's initials. I don't think what you have is a Garret. The lock may be but the rest is something else. I may be wrong but I don't think Pedersoli made any for Garret. But as far as I know Garrets are the only repro's with a working pellet priming system.

[Maillemaker]

I don't know what you paid for it, and it certainly isn't a complete Garret based on that Pedersoli barrel, but it doesn't look like a terrible put-together. Looks like you have a Garret receiver (based on the functioning pellet primer and the case hardened block) married to a Pedersoli barrel and furniture. I think the authentic-style receiver is cool and Pedersoli makes decent stuff. So I guess all I'm saying is that while it may not be a true Garrett it still looks like a nice find to me, depending on what you paid for it, of course.

Steve

[P.Altland]

A number of years ago I was at the Antique Arms Show in Timonium, MD mulling over an "As New" Garrett that didn't look quite right. Fortunately, at the time, Frank was a Vendor. I asked him if he would look at this carbine at tell me if it was right and true. While I have seen differently on this board, Frank at the time told me that the Palmetto tooling was sold to Pedersoli. Would seem to make sense since the Pedersolis that I have seen have the same 6 groove right barrels and not 3 groove like the IAB. He also told me that the carbines with his cartouche on the left side were ones that he personally approved and that there were never any of his with 5 digit serial numbers. However, he did say that there were some out there that were produced after his contract with Palmetto ended. While it may not be a "true and right" Garrett, it may not be the intentional scam you think that it is. Take this FWIW. I wasn't part of the N-SSA during the time they were being produced and can only go with what he told me.

[762x51]

Hi Paul,

The lock plate may have been one that was bought from whoever was selling off the left over parts when Garrett went out of the "Sharps" business.

Point is, this is not a "true" Garrett carbine. Larry Flees has sent me some photos of his Garrett Carbine and I will be posting his photos and photos of mine side by side on my web site later and you'll be able to see the difference between the two.

Orin

[P.Altland]

Hi Paul,

I would agree that this was an upfront sale if I hadn't been told, in a phone conversation, that the carbine had been "defarbed".
If you look at the photos you'll see that this carbine hasn't been "defarbed" and the proof marks are still on the receiver.
The lock plate may have been one that was bought from whoever was selling off the left over parts when Garrett went out of the "Sharps" business.

Point is, this is not a "true" Garrett carbine. Larry Flees has sent me some photos of his Garrett Carbine and I will be posting his photos and photos of mine side by side on my web site later today and you'll be able to see the difference between the two.

Orin

I'm aware of what the Garretts look like as I own and shoot a Carbine in 6 right and a Carbine in 7 left. What i'm saying is that, if what Frank Garrett told me at the time is accurate, your carbine could (stress could) be one of those assembled after the tooling left Palmetto. Again, while maybe not a Palmetto Arms Garrett, it may have been produced with the same tooling and left over parts at a factory and not somebody's basement. Unfortunately Frank is no longer around to ask.

[gemmer]

I'm aware of what the Garretts look like as I own and shoot a Carbine in 6 right and a Carbine in 7 left. What i'm saying is that, if what Frank Garrett told me at the time is accurate, your carbine could (stress could) be one of those assembled after the tooling left Palmetto. Again, while maybe not a Palmetto Arms Garrett, it may have been produced with the same tooling and left over parts at a factory and not somebody's basement. Unfortunately Frank is no longer around to ask.

Could be, but either way it appears the seller was up to something by trying to remove the Pedersoli logo. I'm curious as to whether or not he claimed to be the original owner. Also, how does it function-lock up of the breech block to chamber face, lock/trigger function, etc.?

[762x51]

@ P.Altland - Could have been one made from left over parts but I doubt that happened 5 or so years after Frank left the market. The basic carbine was made in 1992.

[P.Altland]

Looks to me like the receiver, lock, trigger, barrel band, block and lever, saddle ring and butt plate all belong together. The case coloring appears consistent with the Garretts I've seen. Either somebody did a really good job of aligning the index marks on a replacement barrel or this is an example of one of the guns Frank claimed to exist. BTW, I know the OP isn't an N-SSA member, but I'm pretty sure that rear sight was altered and would not be legal for use in our competitions.

[Yakiman]

I'm the seller. I bought the carbine two months ago right off this site. I've no knowledge of these guns other that what I can find on the internet and what I'm told by more experienced shooters. The gun had a Lawrence priming system and I was told the only ones made that way were Garrett's. I made an inquiry to Pedersoli before I bought it and they told me it wasn't theirs as all their Sharps serial numbers start with SH.

[P.Altland]

@ P.Altland - Could have been one made from left over parts but I doubt that happened +/- 20 years after Frank left the market. The basic carbine was made in 1992.

Not 20 years. In a previous post Ron has told you that he bought his Palmetto Arms Garrett in 85/86. So that's only 6 years after his. Does anyone know what the date code is of the last Palmetto Arms Garrett?

[762x51]

Here is a link to the ad and I will post the response from Pedersoli when I receive it.

https://www.armslist.com/posts/8032625/columbus-ohio-muzzle-loaders-for-sale--garrett-1863-sharps-carbine

[762x51]

Not 20 years. In a previous post Ron has told you that he bought his Palmetto Arms Garrett in 85/86. So that's only 6 years after his. Does anyone know what the date code is of the last Palmetto Arms Garrett?

There are no Palmetto Arms markings on the carbine.

[P.Altland]

Here is a link to his ad and I will post the response from Pedersoli when I receive it.


Again, relying on Frank's words at the time, there was some legalese involved, on his part, with these unauthorized guns . Maybe Pedersoli won't be quick to claim it. Also of note, my Garretts both start with a C in the serial number.

[Maillemaker]

It is interesting to note that both the barrel and tang are stamped with the same serial number. If this is a put-together, someone went to a lot of trouble.

Steve

[P.Altland]

Ron,

Where do you find the date codes? Mine are AD and Al.


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[762x51]

Paul,

The barrel has 6 lands and groves and here is a table of Italian firearm date codes:

6404

[Maillemaker]

I'd rather not see yet another social media site impose arbitrary rules that restrict people who are not doing anything either illegal nor immoral with their firearms.

But from what I'm gathering, this particular transaction misunderstanding doesn't have anything to do with defarbing. It appears, based on Yakiman's previous posts and this post, that neither the buyer nor the seller fully understood what they had, which sounds like it might be a legitimate put-together by someone using Garrett parts.

Steve

[Yakiman]

It is interesting to note that both the barrel and tang are stamped with the same serial number. If this is a put-together, someone went to a lot of trouble.

Steve
Not only the bbl and tang, the lock, the breech block, the lever, the lock, the buttstock and even the removable chamber sleeve are identically numbered.

[Yakiman]

Looks to me like the receiver, lock, trigger, barrel band, block and lever, saddle ring and butt plate all belong together. The case coloring appears consistent with the Garretts I've seen. Either somebody did a really good job of aligning the index marks on a replacement barrel or this is an example of one of the guns Frank claimed to exist. BTW, I know the OP isn't an N-SSA member, but I'm pretty sure that rear sight was altered and would not be legal for use in our competitions.

The flip up portion of the rear sight was very thin and the elevation bar had no detents - it was bent so it made kind of a friction fit up to about 350yds, tab one side broke so I ordered a new sight. It's the exact same one on my Pedersoli 1859 - is that one also illegal? What should it have?

[P.Altland]

The flip up portion of the rear sight was very thin and the elevation bar had no detents - it was bent so it made kind of a friction fit up to about 350yds, tab one side broke so I ordered a new sight. It's the exact same one on my Pedersoli 1859 - is that one also illegal? What should it have?

I don’t believe the detents and set screw arrangement are legal for use in competition. It was not a feature of the original Sharps sight, but I would defer to someone with more expertise like John Holland


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[Ron The Old Reb]

The date code on my Garret is on the left side of the barrel right above the four-arm. Weather it's a true Garret or not by, the looks of the picture, seven hundred dollars doesn't seem to much. You'll pay more than that for a true Garret. I know I would not sell the one I have for $700.00

[Yakiman]

I'd like to thank all who've replied here as it helps me to gain more knowledge of these particular firearms. Starting a new endeavor at the age of 70 can be a bit daunting. My description of the gun as a "Garrett" was based solely on the fact that it was built with a fully operational Lawrence Primer system and I was told no one else made them.

[P.Altland]

I don't remember seeing Ron's post but even if it was a Palmetto Arms Sharp's it isn't a Garrett as advertised.
It may be like a Garrett but it isn't a Garrett.

Also, there are no Palmetto Arms markings on the carbine.

Thanks for the date code sheet and you are correct that it’s not exactly a Garrett. I was only trying tell you that it may not be exactly under the circumstances you thought. To many things match and appear to fall in line with words shared by the man who’s name adorns the gun you were intending on buying. I don’t know you or the seller and have no dog in this fight. I just thought my experience with him that day would help shed some light on what you may potentially have.


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[Yakiman]

Just a bit more background:

https://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthread.php/16486-Need-info-on-Garrett-Sharps

[John Holland]

I do not believe it has been "Defarbed" for a couple of reasons. One of which is the overall factory condition of all of the parts, the other is that I have seen Pedersoli stampings that are the same as the one shown here, light and incomplete.

[RaiderANV]

The puzzling thing is all parts are stamped with the same serial number, it's 6 L&G and has the pellet primer system. Who knows how long after Pedersoli got Franks tooling and left over parts they put the last gun together.
For $700 that gun is a deal as you can't put one together for near that money. Last Garrett I saw sold for $1300
Myself with easily 700+ internet deals I've been screwed three times. Twice the seller honestly thought it was the real deal and once the seller faked it. None gave a refund. Even though they were not what they were suppose to be I easily resold them with correct description and got my money back and a tad more.
When Parker Hale sold the Enfield tooling the Italians continued to put together "Enfields" with left over parts for years. They got a chit load of English barrels in the deal. I guess transition gun happen.

[RaiderANV]

He is EGGMAN......hear him ROAR!!!!!!

[Maillemaker]

A possible contradiction here Steve? "doesn't have anything to do with defarbing" and "neither the buyer nor the seller fully understood what they had." How did the latter happen? Maybe neither of the players here may be at fault, but someone is. What exactly is "a legitimate put -together?" An assembly of random parts of unknown parentage is not a Garret or a Pedersoli or a Palmetto or anything else. It's "an assemblage of various parts," and necessarily must be described as such-- or it's a fake. And if so, the legal and moral obligations are obvious, and the BIG Eye of the site monitor now enters the picture.

Edit: Sorry I posted this after Eggman has already posted about his new understanding of maker overlap.

Like John said, this does not appear to have anything to do with "defarbing" because this does not appear to have been a firearm that someone tried to make look like something it isn't, which is what defarbing is. This appears to merely be some maker who was assembling Sharps at some point in time using Garret and Pedersoli parts. That isn't "defarbing", that's just musket building. We do this in the N-SSA all the time - I have a Euroarms P1853 with a Whitacre barrel in it. There is now nothing on the gun to indicate it's a Euroarms. In fact, the bridle still has a faint "PH" cast into it from where it was copied from Parker Hale (So did the first batches of Pedersoli Enfields, by the way.) Also it has a Rich Cross rear sight and square-eared lock washers. Will this be confusing to someone who handles it 40 years from now? Possibly. What do you propose? That everyone who puts together a musket stamp all the parts with their name on it or they can't sell it? What if they re-build the breech block like Charlie Hahn and Larry Flees do? Should they stamp the block with their mark so people years from now will not be confused as to who made it? It's a nice idea, but I don't think you can count on it. As always, the onus will be on future buyers to see all the markings and understand what they are looking at. Because as this thread clearly shows, there are lots of ways to get confused with firearms and many of them have nothing to do with deliberate deception.

From what I've read in this thread, and Yakiman's previous requests for information in other posts, it appears that he honestly thought he had a Garrett Sharps because he was told that Garrett was the only reproduction that had a functioning pellet primer system. According to Yakiman he told the buyer on the phone about the lack of markings and the buyer said he wanted it anyway. I'm guessing he got "target fixation" on buying a Garrett Sharps for $700 and went David Farragut on it.


Steve

[762x51]

I have been in contact with Pedersoli and I'll post their reply so hopefully we will know this guns history other than it was assembled in 1992.

[P.Altland]

I think, In the end, what you got was the Chevy version of a GMC. Same parts. Different badge. That entire gun was most likely tooled by Palmetto but never assembled before closing their doors.


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[Maillemaker]

If so, in a way, this could be considered "one of the last of the Garrett Sharps ever made".

Steve

[P.Altland]

A Pederrett, perhaps?


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[RaiderANV]

We need a LIKE Button

[John Holland]

To both the "Buyer & Seller" of this carbine: You may discuss the origins, merits, etc., of this Sharps all you want, but please take your personal disagreements with each other off-line from this page.

Thank you.

[YOU DON'T KNOW ?]

We need a feedback page similar to eBay or GunBroker.

[bobanderson]

No, we need people with no useful input to please just stop.

Except this post, of course.

[P.Altland]

The thread should just be deleted as I didn't simply just ignore the sellers comments.
I apologize to the forum for not just keeping my feelings to myself.

Personally, I think it should stay. This thread may have turned out to prove the existence of a carbine that Frank talked about. (I’ve since learned that others were told the same story.) I would bet that carbine will be an excellent shooter.


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[Maillemaker]

I liked this thread. It was a crummy situation for those involved in the sale, but I learned about Garret Sharps and its demise and about the fate of old Garret stock. This may be a very unique firearm. It would be interesting to try and pin down more of the provenance of it, and the fate of Garret Sharps parts inventory.

Steve

[Hal]

Wish I had $700 of discretionary funds laying around and I'd offer the buyer what he paid for the damned thing. I tend to lean toward original firearms and my wife shoots an original 1859 Sharps, but I if I could afford it right now, I'd take this one for $700 and not have any complaints. I'd play with it and get it shooting decent enough, satisfy my curiosity with it, and sell if for what I had in it at some later date. Unfortunately, I don't need to spend that on this gun right now, so I won't, but I would urge someone else to do the same. That way, they could have a nice repro Sharps for a very fair price, the original buyer would have his money back, and nothing to further complain about.

[Ron The Old Reb]

I personally would keep it. For $700.00 it looks like a decent Sharps. It does have a Garret lock on it all the furniture looks right and could very well be Garret's. It also has a good barrel on it. Probably better than the Palmetto that should be on it. The only thing I would do to it is strip the stock and stain it walnut and put a nice hand rube oil finish on it and put an O ring seal in it. Then shoot the hell out of it and enjoyed it.

[762x51]

I personally would keep it. For $700.00 it looks like a decent Sharps. It does have a Garret lock on it all the furniture looks right and could very well be Garret's. It also has a good barrel on it. Probably better than the Palmetto that should be on it. The only thing I would do to it is strip the stock and stain it walnut and put a nice hand rube oil finish on it and put an O ring seal in it. Then shoot the hell out of it and enjoyed it.

Just got back from the range and yes, I'm going to keep it and more than likely send it to Larry for the seal modification.

[P.Altland]

Just got back from the range and yes, I'm going to keep it and more than likely send it to Larry for the seal modification.

[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]. Maybe John Holland will add Pederrett to the Approved Arms list...... or not.
I haven’t seen a reply yet from someone more learned than me on the rear, but you may want to look into that a little more if you plan to get in on the N-SSA fun.


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[Maillemaker]

Just got back from the range and yes, I'm going to keep it and more than likely send it to Larry for the seal modification.

Larry's action job is top-notch. I have a Pedersoli 1859 Sharps and it leaked gas badly in spite of having their own rendition of the Sam Dobbins O-ring Job done to it by Pedersoli. I could get off about 10 shots before the action started to become immovable.

I sent it to Larry, and when I got it back I ran 98 consecutive shots through it without cleaning the action (I brushed the bore every 5 as I was doing load workups).

Not only does Larry's breech block job solve the problem of the action jamming up, but it makes the gun soooo much easier to clean, because there is no gas leakage into other parts of the action anymore.

I don't know if yours will need it, but with my Pedersoli Larry also replaces all of the fire channel hardware (cleanout screw, fire cone) with custom-fit hardware that fills in some of the nooks and crannies left in the stock configuration. Those nooks and crannies result in some of the percussion cap fire getting "lost" in the passage way instead of going out the fire cone into the chamber. This can result in some misfires until you get a dozen or so shots off and the fouling fills up the nooks and crannies. Before I had like 2 in 10 misfires. Now I might get like 1 in 20.

Steve

[762x51]

I have updated my WEB site pages of this really nice reproduction 1863 Sharps Carbine with updated comments and photos.

Here is a link to the page and at the top left you'll see a "button" to a page where I've compared an original Garrett to the one I have.

http://www.autochart.com/1863sharps.htm

6427

[Maillemaker]

This continues to be very interesting. I can't wait to hear what Pedersoli has to say about it.

Steve

[762x51]

Here is a note I just received from Pedersoli:

"Dear Mr. Harding, We had to take the time to look in the old serial number books to find the matching serial number.
The rifle was produced at the beginning of 1992, at that time we took over the tooling and some parts from Palmetto company, we produced
few pieces of the Sharps rifles, yours was shipped to Beauchamp Company in June 1992.
Soon after that period we made our own tooling, to produce the parts inside our company and in the 1993 we started with the new reference
for the serial number, which is SH..since then our Sharps rifles are marked with SH and the number."

[P.Altland]

So, the story from Frank was true. It’s a Palmetto “Garrett” assembled by Pedersoli.


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[RaiderANV]

Pedersoli should have stuck with Garrett's rifling and tape primer as they had the tooling.

Richard Beauchamp

www.flintlocksetc.com (http://www.flintlocksetc.com)

[Maillemaker]

Cool ending to the story. Seems this is a "transitional" arm made during the acquisition of Palmetto by Pedersoli. I don't know what this means for the value of your gun, or whether the transitional guns were considered better, worse, or the same as what came before or after. Clearly it's better (in my mind anyway) than the Pedersoli replicas in that it has the tape primer system. In any case, this is probably a "rare" firearm. Definitely unique.

Steve

[Hal]

So...... some of the early accusations were unfounded?

[Maillemaker]

I think both gentlemen were rightfully confused as to what the true aspects of the firearm were and it resulted in some hard feelings. Hopefully it's been a learning experience for everyone and we can leave it at that.

I sure learned a lot about Garrett Sharps and their fate!

Steve

[John Holland]

I think y'all mean a "Pellet Primer", rather than a tape primer!

[Francis J. Miller Jr, 02601]

Question for John Holland. John, since the "Garrett" is listed as an approved Sharps Carbine, Would this particular carbine pass as an approved "Garrett" or would it need to be inspected by SAC because of the lack of the "Garrett" name not being on the carbine?? Thank You...

[John Holland]

Because this is a non-conforming Pedersoli Sharps Carbine, made out of a mixture of Garrett and Pedersoli parts, and it is a New Model 1863 which is not on the Approved Arms List for Pedersoli, it will be required to have an individual approval card issues to it.

[762x51]

Because this is a non-conforming Pedersoli Sharps Carbine, made out of a mixture of Garrett and Pedersoli parts, and it is a New Model 1863 which is not on the Approved Arms List for Pedersoli, it will be required to have an individual approval card issues to it.

John, How do I get this done? I should be at the Nationals so can it be done there?

[RaiderANV]

Yes Orin they can inspect it there.

[John Holland]

Small Arms Inspections are done at every National Wed., Thur., Fri., from 9:00 to 11:00 AM in the old Hocker-Hughes building. I will look forward to seeing you there!

[762x51]

Small Arms Inspections are done at every National Wed., Thur., Fri., from 9:00 to 11:00 AM in the old Hocker-Hughes building. I will look forward to seeing you there!

Thanks John, I hope to see you there as well.