Confusing Rule

[Southron Sr.]

The N-SSA rule states that combustible cartridges cannot be used in muzzleloading arms.

So are combustible cartridges illegal to be used in percussion revolvers?

Percussion revolvers are not "muzzleloaders" as they are "cylinder"(or chamber) loaders.

Seems to me, using combustible cartridges in percussion revolvers would be 100% safe.

[Jim Barber]

At risk of diving too deep into technical detail, my understanding is that a typical percussion revolver IS a "muzzleloader" since the charge and projectile are loaded from the muzzle end, not the breech. Suggesting that loading from the muzzle-end of a cylinder, rather than the breech end of it, makes it a 3rd type of gun (something between a muzzleloading gun and a breechloader) is pretty heavy on semantics and suggestion that there exists some "other type" than ones which stuff from the front or the back. It loads from the middle? Kind of a Buddhist thing, like there's "yes" and "no" and then a 3rd thing which defies expression, but is where the truth lies if one looks not too hard for it. I will defer to Robert Pirsig for details of this theory.

Cheers!

Jim B.
Grove City, OH

[Wayne Shaw, 1985V]

The N-SSA rule states that combustible cartridges cannot be used in muzzleloading arms.

So are combustible cartridges illegal to be used in percussion revolvers?

Percussion revolvers are not "muzzleloaders" as they are "cylinder"(or chamber) loaders.

Seems to me, using combustible cartridges in percussion revolvers would be 100% safe.

Southron Sr Let me see if I can help you with this. Since this has come up before over the years and being on the BOD or being at the meetings I know that the N-SSA has always looked at combustible cartridges will not be used in any of our firearms.( revolvers included)
As the National IG I can assure you that the Rule should be corrected to clean up that Grey area. It will be in the Rules changes submitted for the August BOD meeting to do just that.
In the mean time and from the IG's stand point the use of combustible cartridges are not allowed!

Wayne Shaw National Inspector General 1985V SAC

[efritz]

What is def. of a combustible cartridge

[MR. GADGET]

In the mean time and from the IG's stand point the use of combustible cartridges are not allowed!

Wayne Shaw




So we can not use any paper in a sharps?

[RaiderANV]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cartridge


The original worry was cook-offs and fires when conditions were super dry which has happened before.

[Maillemaker]

One of the things I wish to tackle this year is proposing a rule change that explicitly allows the use of US 1855 and US 1862 expanding ball cartridges. With the US expanding ball cartridge, no part of the paper cartridge was or is put in the barrel - it is merely a paper envelope for holding the powder and the bullet, just like our plastic tubes are today. These cartridges were used in the Traditional Musket Matches held at the Nationals for a brief time, and I understand from postings that some people are using them in regional skirmishes also, though by my reading of the current rules this is of dubious permissibility, depending on how you interpret "cardboard". The 1855 cartridge has an internal powder chamber made of stiffer "rocket paper" that one might interpret to be "card stock". I think this rule change should be easy to achieve since nothing is changing with regards to what is being loaded into firearms. You can see how to make them here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB3g6inwu8o

If I can get that measure passed, the next thing I would like to take up is the option to use cartridges of the style of the British Enfield. This style of cartridge the Confederacy also fitfully undertook to settle on as its standard-issue cartridge design, finally adopting it as their only cartridge design in February of 1864, though the order was rescinded a short time later. This style of cartridge integrates the bullet with the outer paper wraper of the bullet, resulting in a paper-patched bullet being loaded into the firearm. Unlike the British, who used a boxwood, and later a clay-fired plug, the Confederacy did not use a plug in the base of the bullet, which is convenient for us since N-SSA rules prohibit any kind of multi-part ammunition. From experience, I feel it's unlikely that the plug would ever separate from the bullet during flight, but it is nice to know that when making Confederate copies of British Enfield ammunition it is not required.

You can see how to make these here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzA9aXEyT-c

With regards to revolvers, I have often thought that self-contained cartridges would greatly speed up the loading time and the uniformity of loads, which could be carefully measured out at home rather than in the field under time pressure.

I don't think there is any real risk of cook-offs with revolvers since the time between discharging all cylinders and re-loading them is usually several minutes, at least. However, I think the risk could be mitigated by allowing the use of foil cartridges, which were used during the American Civil War. Of course, like artillery, the foil remnants will have to be fished out of the chambers after every firing with a worm of some kind, but this would be easily done. It would might necessitate the pricking of each foil cartridge through the percussion cone prior to firing, and if forgotten or ill-done could result in a fouled weapon on the line, so there is that.

Personally I think combustible cartridges for revolver would be perfectly safe. Has anyone ever seen or heard of a cook-off in a revolver from any kind of loading?

Steve

[MR. GADGET]

Being we are talking about rules that are confusing. ..

20.7.3 General rules SSP
J. SB firearms....... use of patch filler wads is prohibited.


22.1 Ammo
C single shot pistol may include filler such as COW or Wads


So what rule trumps what?

I remember the fussing about using COW or wads.

Rules say it us not legal yet legal under ammo section.?

In that fussing both were correct. Rule says you can but cant use it.......

[MR. GADGET]

Personally I think combustible cartridges for revolver would be perfectly safe. Has anyone ever seen or heard of a cook-off in a revolver from any kind of loading?

Steve

Yes had a friend that watched it first hand also several happened at cowboy action shoots.


Sorry just looked it over again those were chain fire not cookoff.

[Maillemaker]

Big Steve has adopted the writing style of Jane Austin.

I been a learnin' all kinds a big letturs and wurds since readin' yer book.

:)

Steve

[Curt]

Hallo!

IMHO...

I hold C & B revolvers to be "breechloaders" as an oversized ball/conical enters the BARREL from the breech end rather than the muzzle end.

And do not view the chamber mouth on the cylinder as the muzzle. (In a similar manner to a host of externally primed cartridge loading breechloading rifles and carbines.)

:)

Curt

[ChrisWBR]

One of the things I wish to tackle this year is proposing a rule change that explicitly allows the use of US 1855 and US 1862 expanding ball cartridges. With the US expanding ball cartridge, no part of the paper cartridge was or is put in the barrel - it is merely a paper envelope for holding the powder and the bullet, just like our plastic tubes are today. These cartridges were used in the Traditional Musket Matches held at the Nationals for a brief time, and I understand from postings that some people are using them in regional skirmishes also, though by my reading of the current rules this is of dubious permissibility, depending on how you interpret "cardboard". The 1855 cartridge has an internal powder chamber made of stiffer "rocket paper" that one might interpret to be "card stock". I think this rule change should be easy to achieve since nothing is changing with regards to what is being loaded into firearms. You can see how to make them here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB3g6inwu8o

If I can get that measure passed, the next thing I would like to take up is the option to use cartridges of the style of the British Enfield. This style of cartridge the Confederacy also fitfully undertook to settle on as its standard-issue cartridge design, finally adopting it as their only cartridge design in February of 1864, though the order was rescinded a short time later. This style of cartridge integrates the bullet with the outer paper wraper of the bullet, resulting in a paper-patched bullet being loaded into the firearm. Unlike the British, who used a boxwood, and later a clay-fired plug, the Confederacy did not use a plug in the base of the bullet, which is convenient for us since N-SSA rules prohibit any kind of multi-part ammunition. From experience, I feel it's unlikely that the plug would ever separate from the bullet during flight, but it is nice to know that when making Confederate copies of British Enfield ammunition it is not required.

You can see how to make these here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzA9aXEyT-c

With regards to revolvers, I have often thought that self-contained cartridges would greatly speed up the loading time and the uniformity of loads, which could be carefully measured out at home rather than in the field under time pressure.

I don't think there is any real risk of cook-offs with revolvers since the time between discharging all cylinders and re-loading them is usually several minutes, at least. However, I think the risk could be mitigated by allowing the use of foil cartridges, which were used during the American Civil War. Of course, like artillery, the foil remnants will have to be fished out of the chambers after every firing with a worm of some kind, but this would be easily done. It would might necessitate the pricking of each foil cartridge through the percussion cone prior to firing, and if forgotten or ill-done could result in a fouled weapon on the line, so there is that.

Personally I think combustible cartridges for revolver would be perfectly safe. Has anyone ever seen or heard of a cook-off in a revolver from any kind of loading?

Steve

Steve,
I've never seen a cook-off in a revolver in 40 years of skirmishing, but I do know people who have had chain fires. My observation is that it is not the lube on top of the projectile that prevents a chain fire, but the caps on the chambers. A fallen or missing cap allows the potential of flame getting into the chamber and igniting the charge.
As for combustible cartridges, I personally am against them. Introducing anything else that would potentially cause fouled revolvers or possible hang-fires, or requires time to "fish out" the foil, isn't something we need. Charges for revolver are supposed to be in prepared tubes of some sort. So, I'm not sure what you mean by preparing them in the field. If you want to speed up loading for your revolver, consider a lubed conical bullet. Those who use them generally are waiting at least 3 minutes for everyone else to finish loading.
Regards,
Chris
National Revolver Range Officer

[MR. GADGET]

Hallo!

IMHO...

I hold C & B revolvers to be "breechloaders" as an oversized ball/conical enters the BARREL from the breech end rather than the muzzle end.

And do not view the chamber mouth on the cylinder as the muzzle. (In a similar manner to a host of externally primed cartridge loading breechloading rifles and carbines.)

:)

Curt

Just like a Burnside Breech loader.

[Mike McDaniel]

Charges for revolver are supposed to be in prepared tubes of some sort.


Precisely. No measuring of loose powder on the line.

[MR. GADGET]

The N-SSA rule states that combustible cartridges cannot be used in muzzleloading arms.

So are combustible cartridges illegal to be used in percussion revolvers?.

just a reminder this was the question.




Really, you think we load the Sharps from the muzzle? Your reaching I think.


No more than a Revolver correct?
You really think we load a Revolver from the Muzzle?

Whats with being so smart and name calling?

His statement was a blanket statment. Even in bold. Should be clarified. That was why I ask.
I know the answer.

[Maillemaker]

Charges for revolver are supposed to be in prepared tubes of some sort. So, I'm not sure what you mean by preparing them in the field.

The charges are prepared in tubes, but the filler isn't. Most people, myself included, uncork the tube, set the balls somewhere, dump in the powder, then measure in scoops of filler, then place the balls and drive them home, then apply lube.

With cartridges, you'd just drop the whole shebang into the chamber and drive it home. All lube and filler would be pre-packaged for easy loading.

I would say that revolvers are still basically muzzle loaders. In spite of the bullet entering the rifled barrel from the rear end, the firearm part is essentially the cylinder, which is a tiny smoothbore muzzle loader, that gets loaded from the "muzzle" (the chamber mouth).

Steve

[MR. GADGET]

I got to come to Bruce's defense here. Bruce can't help being smart; that's why he gets his own desk in the small arms building. As for name calling, it was me that compared Bruce to the Buddha, and inferred Big Steve is a Jane Austin wanna-be.

Then he should have helped or added to the thread not just make a jab at those that are posting.
It was clear he had nothing to add.

[John Holland]

Directed to everyone in general, and no one in particular - Continue discussing paper cartridges until the cows come home, formulate game plans, lay out strategy, but please don't start sniping at each other!

[Muley Gil]

Speaking of sniping, I had a dream last night that I was on a mountain in Afghanistan with one of those 50 cal sniper rifles. I was in a quandary, I needed to set the scope but didn't know the range to the next mountain where the Taliban were lurking. So I went into the next cave and asked a civilian guy there for a hand calculator. Once I had the calculator I had no idea what to do with it. I then woke up.
I hope this isn't too far off the topic.

You need a range finder. AND, stop eating canned tamales just before going to bed! :D

[Southron Sr.]

COMBUSTIBLE REVOLVER CARTRIDGES

I would like to make several points regarding the use of combustible cartridges in percussion revolvers. To start with, I completely agree with the N-SSA rule banning the use of combustible cartridges in muzzleloaders like smoothbores and rifle-muskets. That is a very wise rule. In those arms "cook offs" of a combustible cartridges would be very dangerous if not disastrous because a lead projectile would be flying out of the barrel as the arm was being reloaded.

However, the N-SSA rules do allow the use of combustible cartridges in breechloaders like the Sharps Rifles and Carbines. Matter of fact, I think that it is safe to say that tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of combustible Sharps rounds are fired every year in Skirmishe competition with very little or no safety problems.

Now lets "compare and contrast" the use of Sharps arms and percussion revolvers in team matches. As anyone that has fired a Sharps in rapid fire team competition using combustible cartridges can testify, the chamber of a Sharps can get pretty hot, depending on the number of rounds fired in quick succession, the temperature of the air on that day, etc. Yet, experience indicates that Sharps, when fired with combustible cartridges in rapid fire competition have little or no safety issues when it comes to cook offs..

Now, lets take look at percussion revolvers. By definition, a percussion revolver being fired in team competition has 1/6th the chance of having a cook off when being reloaded than a Sharps being fired in team competition when being reloaded. Why? Because a percussion revolver has six chambers compared to the one chamber of a Sharps.

Hence, the chambers of a percussion revolver, even when fired in team competition, are going to remain a lot cooler (thereby negating any chance of a cook off when being reloaded) than the single chamber of a Sharps being fired in team competition. This indicates to me that combustible cartridges would be perfectly safe to use in percussion revolvers in N-SSA competition.

As members of the N-SSA, I am sure we all wish that when it comes to changing or formulating the rules of competition the BOD will always make very "well informed decisions."

My understanding is that a sister organization of the N-SSA, the Cowboy Action Shooters do allow the use of combustible cartridges in cowboy competition. IF this is the case, then someone in the N-SSA needs to contact the appropriate authorities in the cowboy action shooters organization and inquire IF there has been any safety problems or issues regarding the use of combustible cartridges in their competitions. That information should be presented to the BOD for their deliberations.

If there has been no safety issues using combustible revolver cartridges, then the N-SSA rules could be amended to state: "For the purposes of competition, N-SSA approved percussion revolvers will not be considered muzzleloaders." That rule change would allow the use of combustible cartridges in percussion revolvers N-SSA competition.

One thing is for certain: IF the N-SSA does allow the use of combustible cartridges in percussion revolvers, then that will greatly speed up the time required for reloading in revolver team matches. Considering that skirmish schedules are already crowded with the various team and individual matches on Saturdays, saving some time in the revolver team matches would be of great benefit.

PAPER PATCHED BULLETS

In 1862 the Ordnance Department of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia conducted accuracy experiments with the various arms in use by the ANV at that time. The decisive winners were the P-58 Enfield Naval Rifles and the British P-60 Army Rifles. Both rifles used identical, "heavy" barrels that consisted of 5 lands and grooves rifling along with a 1 in 48" twist rate.

Another finding was that these rifles exhibited their best accuracy only when fired with British made ammunition, i.e. the paper patched Pritchett bullets. The Confederate Ordnance Department considered the Enfield paper patched round so superior to the U.S. issue musket round that in 1863 the Confederacy adopted a slightly modified version of the British issue cartridge. Like the British cartridge, the bullet of the Confederate issue round was paper patched.

Unfortunately, for the Confederacy, the Bath Paper Mills near Augusta, GA burned down due to an accidental fire in late 1863. As the Bath Mill was the only paper mill in the entire South capable of producing the high quality paper needed in the fabrication of the Southern version of the Enfield cartridge, C.S. laboratories had to revert to making copies of the inferior U.S. cartridge again.

Jumping ahead a century and a half, every year, hundreds of thousands of rounds are fired in replica Sharps, Rolling Blocks, replica Peabody rifles, etc in BPCR competitions. Over and over again, in these competitions, paper patched bullets have proved to be extremely accurate.

THE GREAT IRONY......

Yet, the N-SSA, which is among other things, a "target shooting organization" has BANNED the use of the most accurate of all bullets, i.e., "paper patched" bullets!!!

Presumably, this is because, somehow, paper patched bullets pose some sort of "fire hazard." So again on "the well informed decision principle" someone from the N-SSA needs to contact the proper authorities in the BPCR competitions and inquire IF paper patched bullets do or don't present a "fire risk." This information also needs to be presented to the BOD.

Personally, I don't think that paper patched bullets pose a fire risk, but the BPCR people should and would know. IF paper patched bullets became legal in N-SSA, I think we might possibly see both individual and team scores improve a bit.

Well what do you think???

All comments and opinions are Welcome.

THANK YOU!

[Maillemaker]

I don't think guns like the Sharps are terribly susceptible to cook-offs, given the nature of the loading. In a Sharps, the fresh cartridge is pushed into the chamber bullet first. While not a tight fit in the Sharps chamber, this allows the lubed bullet to mostly push any remaining bits of cartridge out of the way on its way in, and possibly snuff them out also. I did, however, opt to not use nitrated paper with my Sharps cartridges, in part because the nitrated cartridges are far more susceptible to ignition from a spark than regular paper. Also I discovered that 17 pound vellum paper blasts to bits so well that the extra work of making nitrated paper was not necessary.

This is quite different from a revolver combustible cartridge which will be loaded with the most flammable portion first.

Steve

[efritz]

Would all this talk make my Greene bolt action illegal which is classified for single shot competition. For those that don’t know how a Greene load consists of bullet-powder-bullet. The under hammer percussion cap sets off the first bullet. With the bolt which has an inner bolt rams the back bullet forward into the chamber. Then a paper cartridge with a bullet behind the powder is inserted into the chamber and the bolt closed. Cap and fire.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

You need a range finder. AND, stop eating canned tamales just before going to bed! :D

You don't need a range finder. You just need to calculate the milrads for which there is a formula for determining range that everyone learns when they go through sniper school. Basically, if your target is 68-inches tall, and you read the angle as 2 mils, your target is 945 yards.

[John Holland]

Fritz - Your Greene is no different than a Sharps.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

The idea of shoving any type of combustible cartridge into a just fired breach/barrel/chamber gives me the willies. Wondering if Steve as yet has experienced a shooter pouring a powder charge down a just fired EMPTY barrel, and having the powder flash in his face -- with no discernible ignition source present. Possibly a hot clinker?? Anyway, most impressive. So now we add bits of smouldering paper to the equation. Us cynical old-timers just ain't going to buy it.
More specific - there's enough windage in the breach area of a Sharps for the bullet to completely bypass a burning ember -- wallah!!

John Holland and some of the others here who grew up with father's in the association can probably remember when before anyone began making metallic or even the early nylon cartridges for the Smith carbine, they were loaded from the muzzle and shot as muzzle-loaders.

[Southron Sr.]

Can anyone remember ANY COMPETITOR ever having a "Cook Off" while he or she was reloading his or her's revolver chambers during a revolver individual or team match?

After almost 50 years of Skirmishing, I can't recall this ever happening, NOT EVEN ONE SINGLE TIME....although, I can remember many instances of rifle-muskets having "Cook Offs" while being reloaded in team matches.

Revolver "Cook Offs" simply don't happen, So why not "legalize" the use of combustible revolver cartridges? It would make reloading revolvers much faster during revolver matches.

What is your opinion?

All comments are Welcome!

THANKS!

[jmiller]

My only problem with this fuss is that it will not save any time, as there will always be people loading with loose powder. The loading times will have to stay the same to provide these shooters time to load, so no time gain will be provided.

[Hal]

If it is safe (and I believe it is), then I have no problem legalizing it. It may take a while, but one day everyone might get on board when they see they are the hold up, and their team mates are loaded and ready to go and they are still spooning cream of wheat from a jar. Until then, at least the folks that enjoy a more authentic experience loading their weapon can do so.

[Maillemaker]

To me, the time savings is more of an issue at individuals, not team shooting. With cartridges, I might be able to shoot 2 targets in a 15 minute course of fire instead of just one. I have taken to shooting 2 targets with all my other guns now. Time is of the essence trying to get 4 guns done in a weekend, especially now that we often have revolver team matches first thing Saturday morning which eats into individual time.

But mostly, it's a convenience factor. I feel like I'm setting up a small laboratory at the loading table today. It would be nice to "load and go" with cartridges pre-made at home. About all I'd need to bring to the loading table is a cleaning brush and my capper, both of which I could stick in my pocket.

Steve

[Jim Barber]

FWIW, I recently got a bunch of extra 5ml plastic vials and pre-loaded them with cornmeal. It speeds loading considerably (not as much as a premade cartridge, of course) but bullet depth/charge compression is much more uniform vs. "spooning cornmeal from a jar" on the line. My few trips to the range thus far suggest measuring the filler (accurately, at home) increases accuracy a good deal, too.

Cheers
Jim B.
Grove City, OH