Why the Zouave?

[Yakiman]

Don't get me wrong, I'm just getting started in N-SSA and am only curious. How did the Zouave get to be an approved musket? From all I read, they were never used anywhere during the Civil War. They seem to be available just about everywhere and at prices considerably less than other CW arms and that price makes them attractive to someone, like me, who is just getting into this activity. But, if I go that route then I'm equipping myself with the gun that never was. How'd it get on the list?

[2kycav]

Very good post, but unless I am wrong, I believe there was several found on some battlefields.......please correct me if I am wrong, but surely to be an approved firearm this issue has been approached........never the less, if you desire to join ouf great organization, please don't let this deter you.........

[P.Altland]

From a 2013 post by Southron Sr

BAck in the "Days of Yore" when the N-SSA was first starting out, the ONLY arms available were originals. Then in 1957 Val Forgett formed Navy Arms and began importing replica '51 Navy Revolvers from Italy.

About the same time, original Remington Model 1863's (what we call Zouaves today) were available for around $20.00 each in "Mint" condition. Why were they in "Mint" condition? Because the government had accempted them from the production line at Remington and then immediately sent them to warehouses where they remained for the next century.

Yes, yes, yes, there is the possibility that a few did get issued out OR maybe Reminton sold some of the overrun to the states for their militias. Unfortunately, no documentation has been found.

Flash forward to the 1950's and the ORIGINAL ZOUAVES quickly gained a reputation as superb shooters in the N-SSA.

So, Val Forgett purchased one in "Mint" condition and sent it to Italy and had it put into production. Hence, the replica Zouave was the FIRST replica of a percussion Civil War long arm.

When the replicas arrived in the U.S. from Italy Val Forgett had a "Marketing" problem to solve and this he did in a brilliant manner.

He couldn't call the replica's "Remington Model 1863 Rifles" because he would have probably gotten sued by Remington. The name "Remington" is copywrighted by the company and they don't loan it out!

So, Mr. Forgett named his replicas of the Remington Model 1863 "ZOUAVE RIFLES.!!!" The Zouaves from the Civil War era dressed in colorful uniforms and were often considered "Elite" troops.

So, that is how the Zouave Rifle got its name, almost a hundred years AFTER the Civil War was over!!! Thanks to the marketing campaign that Mr. Forgett launched around 1961.


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[Maillemaker]

I want a time machine so I can go get myself a $20 original mint Remington 1863. :)

Steve

[RaiderANV]

I believe the rule is one side or the other had to have purchased at least 100 of an individual arm to qualify. Doesn't say it had to be issued. The US purchased 12,000 Remington 1863's

[Michael Bodner]

Yakiman,

No one said, so let me be the first, Welcome!!!

Where about are you located? I'm sure lots of N-SSA members in your area would be delighted to talk with you about joining.

Mike Bodner

[Harry Gaul]

Yakiman,

This is a shot in the dark. If you live in Southeast Pa. or Northern Maryland, you might want to attend a gun show/ shoot at Columbia Fish and Game Association in Columbia, Pa this weekend(Sunday only) from 10:00 am to 3:00 pm. The gun show is heavily tilted towards Rev, F and I, and Mountain Man impression but a local NSSA group will hold a demonstration of NSSA style shooting. I hope to be there, and I/We will guided you through this event. Bring your Zouave and hopefully it will pass inspection and you can shoot live rounds at breakable targets. If not, you can shoot my NSSA approved musket and may be break some targets with us. Food is available for sale and indoor/ outdoor plumbing available and free parking. PS I am too old to shoot in the rain but others do.

True Blue and Diamond Hard,
Harry
3rd US
3626v
Middle Atlantic Regional Inspector/ Mentor/ Recruiter.

[P.Altland]

I believe the rule is one side or the other had to have purchased at least 100 of an individual arm to qualify. Doesn't say it had to be issued. The US purchased 12,000 Remington 1863's

I believe there is at least one that doesn’t meet that rule. It has 2-bands and starts with the word Amoskeg. :)


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[John Holland]

I, too, would like to welcome "Yakiman" to our forum! You have said you are just getting started in the N-SSA, does that mean you are now a member? I only ask because if you are a member there are other ways of assisting you. However, if you are not a member, that's OK, too, because we will still do our utmost to help you with N-SSA type shooting! Your question about the use of Remington M-1863 Rifle in the N-SSA is best answered by the N-SSA's Rules, specifically 19.1 (c) as follows:

19.1 ACCEPTABLE SKIRMISH MATCH FIREARMS

a. Only original or reproductions of military firearms manufactured during the Civil War or prewar era, and which meet the criteria set forth in these rules, shall be used for competition.

b. Those arms must have been manufactured prior to 26 April 1865 in quantities of at least 100 arms each.

c. The arms must have been possessed by a US, CS, state, or local military authority during the American Civil War, but they do not need to have been issued to troops in the field.

If you have any other Small Arms questions I would be more than happy to attempt to answer them for you!

John Holland
N-SSA Small Arms Staff Officer
Small Arms Committee

[William H. Shuey]

Very good post, but unless I am wrong, I believe there was several found on some battlefields.......please correct me if I am wrong, but surely to be an approved firearm this issue has been approached........never the less, if you desire to join ouf great organization, please don't let this deter you.........


I am digging back in the grey matter some years here. I remember being in the Winchester Sutler's old store one evening with a bunch of guys and the subject of the Remington 63 came up. Someone, I'm not sure who, commented that the remains of at least one had been excavated during some work in the area of the crater at Petersburg. Someone may know more!

Bill Shuey

[John Holland]

I'm fairly sure In know who it was who brought it up. So far it has only been a folklore legend because the excavated parts have never shown up anywhere, either as the artifacts themselves, or in an official report. The best guess from others is that the parts were actually from a Georgia Armory Rifle. The brass parts from a Georgia Armory Rifle, by themselves, could be easily confused with the brass parts of a Remington 1863 Rifle by someone who may not know the subtle differences between them.

[Yakiman]

Yakiman,

This is a shot in the dark. If you live in Southeast Pa. or Northern Maryland, you might want to attend a gun show/ shoot at Columbia Fish and Game Association in Columbia, Pa this weekend(Sunday only) from 10:00 am to 3:00 pm. The gun show is heavily tilted towards Rev, F and I, and Mountain Man impression but a local NSSA group will hold a demonstration of NSSA style shooting. I hope to be there, and I/We will guided you through this event. Bring your Zouave and hopefully it will pass inspection and you can shoot live rounds at breakable targets. If not, you can shoot my NSSA approved musket and may be break some targets with us. Food is available for sale and indoor/ outdoor plumbing available and free parking. PS I am too old to shoot in the rain but others do.

True Blue and Diamond Hard,
Harry
3rd US
3626v
Middle Atlantic Regional Inspector/ Mentor/ Recruiter.

That's a generous offer, thank you. But I'm a long way from there (central Ohio).

[John Holland]

There are lots of skirmishes in Ohio!

[Steve Weems]

I'm fairly sure In know who it was who brought it up. So far it has only been a folklore legend because the excavated parts have never shown up anywhere, either as the artifacts themselves, or in an official report. The best guess from others is that the parts were actually from a Georgia Armory Rifle. The brass parts from a Georgia Armory Rifle, by themselves, could be easily confused with the brass parts of a Remington 1863 Rifle by someone who may not know the subtle differences between them.

over the years i have seen comments here and around the campfire that a CSA regiment surrendered some Remington rifles at Appomattox Courthouse. I have never seen the documentation of this but if any here knows where it can be found i would like to see it. the weapons where supposed to have been recorded by make/type.

[Jim Barber]

Yakiman,

I'm in Grove City, OH-- south side of Columbus. My local muzzleloader range is 5 minutes away, if you'd like to try a few guns out some time let me know-- PM or email (address below). Letting folks try out the guns, and seeing their grins, is *almost* as much fun as skirmishing!
FWIW, I made it out to the range today... not bad for February!

Cheers

Jim B.
Grove City, OH
email: jimmyangst@gmail.com

[John Holland]

Steve Weems - The "Remington Rifles" surrendered would have been the M-1841 Remington contract rifles. As an example, South Carolina had received quite few from the Remington contract deliveries that were dated 1853.

[Steve Weems]

Steve Weems - The "Remington Rifles" surrendered would have been the M-1841 Remington contract rifles. As an example, South Carolina had received quite few from the Remington contract deliveries that were dated 1853.

Thanks John— that puts the old rumor to rest.

[Curt]

Hallo!

Centerburg, OH skirmishes are about as "central" Ohio as one can get.

:)

Curt

[Curt]

Hallo!

The Remington 1862 contract called for 10,000 to be made. 10,001 were delivered in batches to the Watervliet Arsenal between April 1863 and January 1864.

There they sat.

They all were still sitting there when inventoried in May of 1866.

10,000 were purchased in August 1907 by Bannerman for .54 each with their bayonets. (One appears to have disappeared.)

I have always been intrigued by the one odd one that was listed as being received in the October 1863 batch of 1,001. It appears to have been the "sample" or prototype used to set the inspection criteria.
Yes, it was late. :) But the Government looked the other way on the Remingtons as they were a contract violation and not what was supposed to have been made.

Remington did not always do a good job. Possibly to keep then happy... rather than reject them, 703 were accepted but docked
.10 off the price of $17.00 each for faults and listing them as "second class arms."

For many years, early in the N-SSA if one was not shooting an original or re-barrelled original the only repro long arm out there was the late 1950's "Zouave" for many years until the Navy Arms' "M1864" RM was approved for 1975.

Curt

[vljenewein]

12, 501 were made, so what happened to the other 2500 if 10,001 were delivered?