Whitworth Match?

[gmkmd]

It seems like a good number of N-SSA shooters have Whitworth rifles that they like to play around with. Has anyone ever proposed a Whitworth Match? Maybe shot prone or from cross sticks , on the 200-yard range? Or maybe make it for Whitworth’s and .451 Volunteer rifle’s? Maybe start with a demonstration match?
Any thoughts?

[PapaRob]

There used to be a long range match once upon a time but I don't know what the rules were nor what the structure was.... I never got to go to one (deployments) and they ended before I got the chance. I would think that something like that would be ideal for whitworth shooters and those with "Sharpshooter" type rifles.

[John Holland]

Many years ago the N-SSA Rules had a provision for a class called "Free Military", which would have included these types of arms. When Parker-Hale introduced the Whitworth and Volunteer Rifles the N-SSA Board of Directors authorized a "Demonstration Match". The demo consisted of two shooters loading and firing at will, at paper targets. One had a Whitworth, the other had a Volunteer. One of the two individuals was/is a very well known person in the N-SSA. This person had the Whitworth, and did everything possible to make this match appear to be unsafe, to include loading with a ball-headed range rod with both hands clasped over the ball of the rod to push the projectile down the barrel with his chin on top of his hands! When the Board witnessed this blatantly unsafe method of loading they declared on the spot that this match would never be adopted, and the "Free Military" class was dropped from the Rules. I was there when all of this transpired.

[newrib]

How about a postal match ? That would leave the safety issues up to the individual. I think there would be a lot of interest. Regards. Tony

[Eggman]

Many years ago the N-SSA Rules had a provision for a class called "Free Military", which would have included these types of arms. When Parker-Hale introduced the Whitworth and Volunteer Rifles the N-SSA Board of Directors authorized a "Demonstration Match". The demo consisted of two shooters loading and firing at will, at paper targets. One had a Whitworth, the other had a Volunteer. One of the two individuals was/is a very well known person in the N-SSA. This person had the Whitworth, and did everything possible to make this match appear to be unsafe, to include loading with a ball-headed range rod with both hands clasped over the ball of the rod to push the projectile down the barrel with his chin on top of his hands! When the Board witnessed this blatantly unsafe method of loading they declared on the spot that this match would never be adopted, and the "Free Military" class was dropped from the Rules. I was there when all of this transpired.
This should have been corrected INSTANTLY by the safety officer. My gosh how can the association let one idiot run a good idea off the rails???????

[gmkmd]

Ditto what he said. Properly sized bullets in a Whitworth or a Volunteer rifle should slide down with just the weight of the ramrod itself.

[John Holland]

You're all missing the point.....the individual who intentionally made the match appear to be unsafe did not want the potential of having one more match added to the Grand Agg. His actions were not by accident, but rather were intentional and calculated to have the demonstration match fail in the eyes of the Board.

[P.Altland]

Some in membership say the Nationals is too long, too crammed together, hurts participation, hurts recruitment and events need cut. Counter that with...... how about a Long Range Match? Yet another string in the last couple weeks that illustrates the tight rope the BOD has to walk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RaiderANV]

I dunno........the last five people I brought into the N-SSA in the last two years all loved the number of events. They felt they had a lot to choose from and knew they could shoot whatever matches that gave them happy feet. I'm thinking it's all the long time members who mainly don't care for the number of matches. Pretty much the ones I hear complaining. I mean WHY complain?? Just shoot whatever you want and ignore the rest. As for the asshat that messed up the Whitworth match.......may he lay on his death bed many many moons from now and relish in his one major accomplishment in life!

[Mike McDaniel]

If you really want to play with long range, allow me to recommend the Long Range squad of the U.S. International Muzzle-Loading Team. Excellent shooters, great people. PM me if you have an interest, or stop by our booth at Nationals.

As for a long-range match at Nationals, the headache is that you need to set up the range specifically for that. Meaning you're shooting from the artillery firing line, or possibly even further back.

It might be possible, but the best option for making it work would be the "Artillery Wednesday" idea I've mentioned. Wednesday would be nothing but artillery - mortar first thing in the morning, artillery at mid-day, slot in long range in the afternoon. Leaves time Saturday AM for individual matches, making them a lot friendlier for young Skirmishers who have kids in school and limited vacation time.

[Eggman]

Got to think the sniper thing, shooting off some sort of rest, would be a big draw.

[RaiderANV]

Naw......the Big guns are the "Big draw" in the N-SSA and I've used them alomst every time to get folks to come to Nationals and get them signed up. They are a main stay and have to stay on Saturday. Have Long Range Wednesday and I'll come early and shoot with you.

[John Holland]

The longest reasonable distance you are going to get at "The Fort" is 200 yards, and that's hardly "Long Range" for Volunteer and Whitworth Rifles.

[gmkmd]

That's true, but you can always increase the difficulty by making the targets smaller.

[Jim Leinicke 7368V]

We did this event unofficially for many years at a regional shoot, and awarded a small trophy as a prize. We built a rail fence on a wooded knoll and had competitors fire 10 rounds at a hanging steel dinger 240 yards down-range. Any pre-1865 firearm, military or civilian, was allowable, as all were used for sharpshooting during the War. Competitors turned up with 1st Model Maynards, carbines or every sort, a "heavy" .58 rifle with a Malcom scope, Spencer Rifles, Sharps Rifles, and of-course military rifles and rifle-muskets. I never saw a Whitworth. All proved competitive at that range. Shooters could take any position behind the fence and most rested on the fence. It was a fun shoot, perfect for a laid-back regional. I would not, however, favor doing this at a National, as these skirmishes are already way too busy.
Jim Leinicke- Western Region

[R. McAuley 3014V]

There is a Long Range match sponsored by the LRML coming up on the Thursday and Friday before Easter weekend at Oak Ridge, TN, but the course of fire starts at 200 yards, and includes legs at 300, 600, and 1,000 yards. Most shooters are using original Whitworths but there are some using Pedersoli Gibbs in .451 and .453, and we had one shooter two years ago using a repro Kerr. He did okay up to 600 but he was nowhere near the paper at 1,000 yard. All of these rifles are shot with vernier tang sights and globe front sights.

UPDATE:
The Oak Ridge Sportsman Association (ORSA) has approved to host their 31st Long Range Muzzleloading Match, a 2 day event on March 29 & 30, 2018 (Wednesday-Thursday) just prior to Easter weekend. Targets are typical NRA HP targets.
This is a traditional (percussion) ML match that aligns with the NMLRA & MLAIC. Nearly every original match rifles such as Whitworth, Rigby, Henry, Kerr, Turner, Gibbs, and more lesser named makers have been active participants. Pedersoli Gibbs is the most popular current rifle in production for this match. Shooters shooting 2 and 3 band Whitworths and Volunteer rifles have also been participants. This year's match is special because it is expected to host collectors displaying their original Whitworth rifles.


Videos from 2016
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29737

[XTR]

There is a Long Range match sponsored by the LRML coming up on the Thursday and Friday before Easter weekend at Oak Ridge, TN, but the course of fire starts at 200 yards, and includes legs at 300, 600, and 1,000 yards. Most shooters are using original Whitworths but there are some using Pedersoli Gibbs in .451 and .453, and we had one shooter two years ago using a repro Kerr. He did okay up to 600 but he was nowhere near the paper at 1,000 yard. All of these rifles are shot with vernier tang sights and globe front sights.

Oak Ridge hosts this match every yr. I never shot it, but I was a member there for many yrs before I moved away 2 yrs ago.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Just received the results from the 31st Oak Ridge Long Range Muzzle loading Match (2018 from Rick Weber, who writes:

Weather forecasting and shooting never mix well, it’s the main concern when shooters travel to destinations- certainly understanding. The Oak Ridge weather forecast was not good for day 1 and only better for the afternoon on day 2 – so, it was decided to shoot 200 and if we could get 600 in on day 1 we would. If we had to drop a range of shooting, I preferred to do so on the shorter distance of 300. 27 shooters in all showed up and it was good to see everyone again as well as some new shooters (Don Howe) and my hat is off to Laurie Kerr and John Stanton from New Zealand who came to participate.

Starting at 200, we did have a quick shower (5min) at 200 yards in both relays. Somehow, two shooters (Brent Danielson and Lee Shaver) shot 100-5x each followed closely by a 99 (Laurie Kerr) and with a few 98’s right behind them. I believe every one of us and all our gear were wet, but no one complained or stopped (we’ll I did, for about 5 minutes thinking – “I’m not shooting in this” more worried about my rifle than myself), only to resume after it stopped to complete my 10 record shots within the 1 hour relay.

In the afternoon on day 1 at 600, the clouds were low and the wind was high – but no rain, yet! Brent D. shot the top score of 88 followed closely again by Laurie K. withan 85. We were able to get both relaysin and headed to the club house.
What a sight to see at the clubhouse. I had asked some of the shooters to bring their original Whitworth’s and Alex Henry’s as Tom Rowe wanted to take photographs for an upcoming Whitworth book and we recently found that Alex Henry’s 200th Birthday is in June (more on that later). I counted 16 Whitworths, 15 Alex Henry’s and 4 other ML rifles by other makers. What makes this so great to me is that nearly all these rifles are still being shot (or have been shot in recent years) they are not just hid away..

Yes, they are worth bookoo $$$ but they were made to shoot –all of them. Someone gave the display the nickname “Museum at Oak Ridge”, I’d have to agree because rifle for rifle it compared (actually exceeded) most museums I’ve been to.
Dinner was catered and we few nearly 50 people as wife’s, relatives and guest came to socialize.

To me, this is another great part about shooting – the people. Some who attended were past their shooting times and just wanted to visit and catch up- life is good when you can shoot, eat, handle nice original pieces of history and visit with old friends!

Thursday was cloudy and temps started near 50 (about 15 degrees cooler), but the wind was still around. We picked up at 300 since theforecast was good for the day and we would be about to get the entire matchshot. Ray Hopkins toped the score of 94-1x at 300 with a slew of people right behind him in the 90’s. Moving to 1000 showed how things can change. Although Dave Munch was the top 1000 yard shooter with a 76, he unfortunately had problems at 600 or he’d been in the hunt. Ray Hopkins posted a 71 to Brent’s 61 allowing Ray to claim The Championship as only 2 points separated them..

Congrats to both shooters.

This year I wanted to expand the match to include a Volunteer Rifle style rifle match – basically a Military style rifle with fixed military front with a rather basic rear sight on the barrel compared to the Vernier used on the LR Match rifles. There are a lot of Parker Hale rifles thatfit this category that I hope will consider attending. Myself and Al Roberts both shot original Alex Henry Volunteer rifles and Mike Pifer shot his Parker Hale. This match ends at 600 yards due to the sight configuration.

Thanks to all who participated and supports our ability todo so.

Rick Weber

[John Holland]

A very nice report. Thank you for sharing it with us Richard.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

A very nice report. Thank you for sharing it with us Richard.

And for those who think you cannot shoot 1,000 yards standing and hit a target...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3BUnHiv6AA

[dbm]

I have a free (pdf) download magazine on my web site. It includes Rick Weber's Oak Ridge report, full results including equipment list and some pictures from the Whitworth rifle display.

See: Research Press Journal | Issue 2 | Spring 2018 (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/download/5-journal/13-journal002)

The first edition of my journal has a brief history of the Whitworth rifle.

See: Research Press Journal | Issue 1 | Winter 2018 (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/publishing/download/5-journal/9-journal001)


David

[John Holland]

Thank you very much for the links, David. It was very kind of you to post and share them with us!

[dbm]

Thank you very much for the links, David.
Thanks for the positive feed back John; I do have concerns sometimes with just posting links and not wishing to fall foul of forum policies. Pleased that it's OK.

Kind regards,

David