HP ?

[Des]

6118Located this but trying to figure out what it is. It is marked on the tang 1861 and fwd of that it has HP. The hammer is not like one I have seen and the barrel appears to have remains of rifling way down in the bore but that could be an illusion as it is very faint about 69 cal. Over condition is as seen. there is remnants of stock marking and there is a sliver of wood missing behind the lock. Bore has no pitting. I am thinking of buying but want to be sure on what it is. I want to use in our smoothbore matches. Fixed as needed of course. There is another mark on the barrel of two initials but forget what they were. It was something like LM.

Any advise would be appreciated

[MarkTK36thIL]

For $60, it's not bad for parts. The hammer looks French/Belgium/Austrian/one of them that I can't remember. But this Hewes and Philips is one of the Type 1s or 2s (can't remember offhand) that were altered using the chambered breech alteration (which would make sense if it were rifled). Someone with their books handy can chime in and correct me.

But it there's rifling, wouldn't that exclude its eligibility in smoothbore matches?

[CAGerringer]

Des,
I think I've got one of the hammers that you're looking for. You know, the stretched and elongated version of a 1861, with the thumb piece sticking straight up and looking like it's about 1/4 of an inch too long.
It will be in storage, but if you're interested...I'll go looking for it.
Cheers,
Charlie

[Des]

That price tag is for the gun underneath. If this H&P was originally rifled couldn't it be put back to smoothbore and used in competition?

[Maillemaker]

That price tag is for the gun underneath. If this H&P was originally rifled couldn't it be put back to smoothbore and used in competition?

No.

The only sighted H&P smoothbores that can be used in N-SSA competitions are the ones made under federal contract. Those had no cleanout screw. Those were originally smoothbore arms that were fitted with rear sights and were intended to be rifled but never were - they were issued as sighted smoothbore muskets.

Other H&P contract guns, such as the New Jersey state contract guns, were rifled, and cannot be converted to smoothbore for N-SSA competition if they were originally rifled arms.

Steve

[John Holland]

The information given by Steve is correct. The musket shown is one of the two types of New Jersey rifled contract muskets delivered by Hewes & Phillips. Regardless that this example has had the hammer replaced, both types are easily recognizable by the bolsters, both of which have clean-out screws and reversed rear sights.
For the purposes of the N-SSA any arm that was built as a rifle, or rifled musket, may not be turned into a smoothbore.
Thank you for asking.
John Holland
N-SSA Small Arms Officer
Small Arms Committee

[Des]

Thanks for the information. It had me pass on purchasing the weapon. The search continues

[Hal]

Might be fun to shoot in regular musket match, though.

[John Holland]

Hal, yes, those "Big .69's" can be a lot of fun to shoot, especially since we now have the much lighter .69 caliber semi-wadcutter bullet for it!

[Michael Bodner]

What was the price???

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

I saw this same musket with the odd hammer at the Chantilly gun show the end of December. It is rifled and the rifling is a little weak at the muzzle with some pitting. As I recall the dealer was asking $900 which I thought was reasonable but I did not have any discretionary funds.

Jim Burgess, 15th CVI

[Des]

He was asking $800. Possibly could go lower but I already have a 69 rifle wanted an HP smoothbore so didn't pursue

[jonk]

Accepting you had to buy a few parts, the 8-900 price tag would be acceptable for a gun you wanted to shoot as a rifled gun. Now if you want to shoot as a smoothbore, you'd need to accept it for a parts gun only; and while not a deal, given the stock, lock, and other parts are worth almost that, it's not a BAD price, but no steal either. But, then, while you'd have MOST of the parts for a proper 16 smoothbore, you'd still have to get the remaining ones and assemble something. I'd keep looking if that's your intent. 16s are out there, just not cheap or everyday items.

[Southron Sr.]

For what it is worth, when James Burton, The Acting Master Armorer at Harpers Ferry in the 1850's, after extensive experimentation found that .69 Caliber Rifled Muskets with Minie Balls were more accurate than .58 Caliber Rifled-Muskets with Minie Balls.

The reason .58 Caliber Rifled arms in the M1855 Series was adopted instead of rifled .69 Caliber rifle muskets was:

1. The Ordnance Department felt that arms firing .69 Caliber Minie Balls would have too much recoil for the average soldier to handle and....

2. In the field, more .58 Caliber Minie ammo could be carried by the soldier because .58 Minie ammo was lighter than an identical quantity of .69 Caliber Minie ammo.