Minie ball thoughts

[PoorJack]

In conversation with a fellow team member, we were thinking through the ballistic properties of the minie like a RCBS 575-500 or Lyman 575213 with respect to a solid Lorenz bullet. The math says our bullets are too long generally speaking for our usual twist rates whereas a Lorenz style in 575 should be closer to optimum.

So question is, has anyone experimented with a Lorenz in 575 with standard twist rates and if so, what were the results? The Wilkinson was brought up in our conversation and it does well for some folks. In my 3 band the first 5 shots were just over an inch at 50yds, but fouling caused it to deteriorate quickly. Revisit the same idea of the Wilkinson, but with two large grease/compression grooves. Comments?

[Don Dixon]

The bullets produced by two compression groove "Wilkinson" bullet mould manufactured by Lee for Greg Edington, and the two compresion groove "Wilkinson" bullet mould manufactured by Moose, are simply variations of Ritter von Lorenz's bullet design. Their one compression groove "Wilkinson" picket bullet moulds are simply a shortened Lorenz bullet.

I have used the one and two compression groove bullets from Edington/Lee moulds in several Parker Hale Pattern 1858 rifle muskets, an S&S Richmond carbine, and paper patched in orginal Muster 1854 rifle muskets and Jagerstutzen. These weapons have a range of twist rates. The bullets have shot well, and without fouling, in all of them. I've shot over a hundred bullets in a single practice session, and the last ones went down the bore as easily as the first, since the Lorenz design is very effective at scraping the fouling out of the bore.

If you are getting fouling with the "Wilkinson" bullet one of several things is happening. The bullets do not shoot well unless they are sized to no more than .001-.002 under bore size. They require very soft lubricant. You can't fill the compression grooves with lubricant, particularly by using a Lubrisizer. If you do, the bullets can't compress into the rifling. Accuracy goes to hell and they don't scrape fouling well.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[PoorJack]

The Wilkinson I experimented with in my 3 band Enfield seemed to be running out of lube. I was using beeswax/crisco and Goex 3f. Things may well be different in my 2 band Colt with Lens and OE, but the Rapine Trashcan shoots into 1in at 50 out of it so I'm not terribly motivated except for the fact that the Rapine seems to be getting unstable at 100yds. So we've been discussing stability of various designs. The Lorenz as originally designed has 2 large compression grooves. The Moose Wilkinson does not. The length to bore to twist ratio seems to indicate the Lorenz to be much better suited to our guns than the standard minie. Continuing down the mathematical path, the lorenz seems to be even more suited in 54 caliber with fast twists (think Sharps).

So before delving into an experiment, again, has anyone worked with an original type Lorenz bullet in a 58cal musket.

[Don Dixon]

Greg Edington's .58 caliber two groove "Wilkinson" bullet was a .58 caliber version of Lorenz's standard .547 Austro-Hungarian Army bullet. As I stated above, I have used it in .577 Pattern 1858 Enfields and a .58 caliber Richmond carbine. It shoots very well, and properly loaded and lubricated is very accurate and does not foul. Edington's and Moose's single groove compression bullet is simply another variation. I made my carbine Distinguished Shooter badge with them, and quite a few points toward bronze and silver Distinguished Skirmisher badges. You just have to know how to shoot them. I haven't used a Minie bullet in a long gun in almost 20 years.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[Maillemaker]

I, too, use the Moose Wilkinson 577-420 in my Euroarms P53 with Whitacre barrel. It is fantastic. Very accurate, and very easy to cast. I no longer use hollow-cavity bullets in competition, either.

Steve

[PoorJack]

The Moose was what I tested in my 3 band Euroarms Enfield, again without much success. If the mold by Edington was much closer to the original Lorenz, is there any way to procure samples to try in a 580 bore and are there any drawings of the Edington Wilkinson available to plug into a ballistic analysis program?

I'm using the Rapine Trash can and the Lee version in my Colts, PH and musketoon and all of them will stack bullets into one hole at 50yds, but all of them show signs of instability at 100 with group sizes opening up to 4in. If I can get another bullet that will duplicate the 50yd performance and close the 100yd groups up substantially, I'd be in for it.

[Maillemaker]

The Moose was what I tested in my 3 band Euroarms Enfield, again without much success

Stock barrel? And, which Moose Wilkinson? I had little luck with my stock Euroarms barrel, but then, it took a .584 bullet for a good fit so was probably shot out.

Steve

[PoorJack]

Stock barrel? And, which Moose Wilkinson? I had little luck with my stock Euroarms barrel, but then, it took a .584 bullet for a good fit so was probably shot out.

Steve
Yes, stock barrel. It shoots ok with a Rapine trashcan or RCBS 500, the bullet that I tested is the one pictured on Moose website. I'd like to revisit that bullet in my Colts and PHs. The Wilkinson that is grabbing our attention is the Edington modified design with Krupp nose.

[PoorJack]

http://forums.mlagb.com/showthread.php?tid=575

[Don Dixon]

We keep talking about apples and oranges here.

The evolutionary bullet concept which resulted in Muster 1854 Austrian ammunition design began in 1848 in Switzerland. The Swiss had been experimenting with .41 caliber “small-bore” rifles, which fired a flat based self-expanding bullet. The bullet had a deep cannelure, so that the force of the exploding powder caused the bullet to compress within its own length. The concept was based upon the inertia of matter. When a bullet is fired, the shock of the powder charge first begins to move the bullet at its base, while the point of the bullet remains briefly at rest. By using a deep cannelure or one or more compression grooves, the bullet will be compressed until its caliber is larger than the bore of the weapon and be expanded into the grooves of the rifling. The shortening of the bullet through compression also increases its stability in the slow rifling twist of the barrels found in muzzzleloading black powder arms. The Swiss eventually used variations of this concept in the Ordnance 1851 and 1856 bullets used in the Muster 1851 family of Swiss Federal rifles [Eidgenossische Handfeuerwaffen]. The .45 caliber Greg Edington "Wilkinson" bullet drawing you made reference to from the MLAGB web site is based upon the Ordnance 1856 Swiss Federal Army design, not on a design by Wilkinson or by Lorenz. Greg intended the bullet to be used in Parker Hale's reproduction Whitworth rifle. (See Schneider et al, Eidgenossische Handfeuerwaffen, 142)

Henry Wilkinson, a firearms and sword maker in London whose company is famous in recent times as the Wilkinson Sword Company, was aware of the Swiss experimentation. In 1852, prior to the adoption of the Pattern 1853 Enfield rifle musket, the British Army held a design competition, for which Wilkinson submitted a rifle and a compression bullet of his own design. The design of Wilkinson’s compression bullet was loosely based upon the Swiss experiments. Wilkinson intended his bullet to be greased and loaded “naked:” that is without using the paper cartridge wrapper as a paper patch. The British Army wanted a bullet which was loaded in the greased paper wrapper of the conventional paper cartridge, however, with the paper serving as a paper patch. In Wilkinson’s design [see bullet number 1 in the drawing below], the compression grooves trapped portions of the paper patch when the rifle was fired, causing the bullets to be wildly inaccurate at distances beyond 300 yards. The trial board suggested that Wilkinson reverse the angles of the compression grooves on his bullet, believing that that way the bullet could be better loaded in conventional paper cartridges. The modification of Wilkinson’s design proposed by the trial board was very similar to the compression bullet design Ritter von Lorenz was developing in Vienna. In the end, the British adopted the Enfield arsenal designed rifle musket and the Pritchett bullet as the Pattern 1853 Enfield rifle musket and ammunition system. So, Wilkinson's design was a failure given the manner in which the British Army wanted to use their military rifle musket and ammunition.

Meanwhile, von Lorenz had been independently working on his own compression bullet designs as part of his design work on a new Wallgewehr [Wall Rifle] and his improvements of the cartridge for the Muster 1842 and 1849 Kammerbüchse . The compression bullets did not work in the [I]Wallgewehr because the bullet was too heavy, resulting in violent recoil, and the barrel strength was too low. The design did work in the Kammerbüchse [see bullet number 4 in the drawing below] however, but von Lorenz believed that it would be more efficient in a smaller caliber weapon. This led him to the design of the .547 inch/13.9 mm System Lorenz bullet and the Muster 1854 family of Austro-Hungarian Army rifles [see bullet number two in the drawing below].

So, Wilkson and Lorenz -- working independently -- developed the compression bullet concept. Wilkson's version was a failure, but since we are English speakers he gets the credit in English langauge sources. Hence Edington's designs and the Moose bullet are styled as "Wilkinson" bullets when they are, in fact, based upon Lorenz's design rather than Wilkinson's.

Greg played with a number of Lorenz based designs. One had two compression grooves [see bullet number 2 in the drawing below], and another -- which Greg called a "Picket" bullet -- had only one compression groove [see bullet number 3 in the drawing below]


http://www.forum.svartkrutt.net/images/uploaded/200906222340024a3ffa3221b68.jpg


Critical to the use of compression bullets is bullet fit to barrel. The bullet needs to be sized no more than .001-.002 inches smaller than bore diameter. For this you need to measure the bore with machinist's plug gauges.

The second critical issue is lubrication. in Lorenz's design the paper cartridge wrapper was greased with pure mutton tallow. There was NO grease in the compression grooves, and no grease migrated through the paper patch. But, the N-SSA will not let us shoot authentic ammunition [i.e., paper patched]. So, we have to shoot a "naked" bullet, and soft lubrication of the bullet is required. I use MCM. If you use a harder lubrication or fill the lubrication grooves [as in the following photograph] the Lorenz bullet WILL NOT shoot accurately.


http://www.forum.svartkrutt.net/images/uploaded/200906222327444a3ff75029564.jpg


Since Greg consulted with me periodicallyu during his development of the modern "Wilkinson" bullet and sent me moulds to test, and I have done extensive historical research on the Austro-Hungarian Army weapons and ammunition, I might have some small knowledge of what I'm writing.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[John Bly]

So how does one lubricate these bullets to keep fouling soft?

[Mike McDaniel]

Don:
A very educational response...you really have got to finish that book on the Lorentz.

How would you go about lubricating a compression bullet? A small amount of lube in the compression grooves? Lube a ring around the ogive of the bullet? Thanks.

[Don Dixon]

So how does one lubricate these bullets to keep fouling soft?

You put the bullet in your loaded cartridge tube and swish it once through melted lubricant. The critical issue is providing a thin layer of grease and NOT filling up the compression groove(s). If the groove(s) are filled with lubricant [see the photo in my prior post] they cannot compress, the bullet will not take the rifling properly, and the shot will be very inaccurate.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101]

I've been patiently waiting for Don to finish his book too, but realize quality takes time.

I shoot the .54 cal. single-groove Wilkinson bullet from Greg Edington. I bought the six-cavity mold he offered, and live in fear that it will wear out or get damaged because I can't replace it.

I use MCM lube too, but apply it with a Lyman Lubrasizer. I took a .539 sizing die (a thousandth under my bore diameter) and inserted a bullet until the projectile tip was flush with the top of the die. Then I looked where the bullet groove lined up to the lube holes, and epoxied shut all the other holes in the die. When I put the die in the Lubrasizer, I line up the holes sideways so the lube comes into the groove equally from both sides. If you don't do that, you'll get more lube on the side closest to the lube reservoir. I fill the groove about halfway to allow for expansion.

The bullet shoots well out of both of my relined 1854 Lorenz muskets, even though their rifling is different. When I got my second Lorenz, I put together the typical series of 5-shot loads with the bullets and charges measured to within .1 grains of each other. I did a 5-shot preliminary test at 50 yards with just my normal loads (thrown powder & unweighed bullets). The results were good enough that I never went through the series of different loads. My eyes just aren't what they used to be, and I didn't think I could do any better.

6084

[CAGerringer]

I just stumbled onto this thread. Fantastic info!
How can we sign up for a signed, first edition of Don's book?
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[John Holland]

I have no doubt that Mr. Dixon will let us know when his finished work is available! All good things take time, and Don is being very thorough with this admirable project.

[Maillemaker]

Thanks for all the info, Don!


So how does one lubricate these bullets to keep fouling soft?

I dip only the bottom ring of the Moose Wilkinson in lube. The tiny lube groove is all that is filled with lube. As Don notes you do not want to pack the compression space full of lube or the bullet cannot compress and won't take up the rifling.

I found the Moose Wilkinson, carrying so little lube, did not shoot well with Shuetzen powder - after about 3 shots it got crunchy going down the bore. With Goex 3F I can shoot them pretty much indefinitely.

Steve

[Robt. Propst]

Thanks to all for great information. I have both the .54 and .58 Eddington molds, and never had success, likely due to over lube in the rings. Sounds like it is worth a re-look.

[PoorJack]

Thanks for all the info, Don!



I dip only the bottom ring of the Moose Wilkinson in lube. The tiny lube groove is all that is filled with lube. As Don notes you do not want to pack the compression space full of lube or the bullet cannot compress and won't take up the rifling.

I found the Moose Wilkinson, carrying so little lube, did not shoot well with Shuetzen powder - after about 3 shots it got crunchy going down the bore. With Goex 3F I can shoot them pretty much indefinitely.

Steve

I lubed the Moose Wilkinson the same way, it shot well for the first 4-5 shots then got crunchy and group opened way up.

Steve- what are you shooting them out of. My 3 band didn't do well with them.

AAAnnnnnd back to the original question posited, Has anyone, or Does any shoot the Original style Lorenz bullet similar to that I posted in a link to a British muzzleloader board?

[Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101]

A translated version of the 1854 Lorenz manual is on-line at http://acwsa.org/Documents/LorenzManualTranslation.pdf The specs and trajectory information is at the back.

[PoorJack]

A translated version of the 1854 Lorenz manual is on-line at http://acwsa.org/Documents/LorenzManualTranslation.pdf The specs and trajectory information is at the back.

Reference link appreciated, but doesn't answer the question. Anybody currently casting and competing with a Lorenz bullet?

[Maillemaker]

I lubed the Moose Wilkinson the same way, it shot well for the first 4-5 shots then got crunchy and group opened way up.

Steve- what are you shooting them out of. My 3 band didn't do well with them.

I shoot them in my Euroarms P53 with Whitacre barrel - 1:72 twist with progressive depth rifling, as I recall.

I also shot them in my JRA Richmond Carbine with Hoyt barrel, but I have switched over to my Pedersoli 1859 Sharps. The Sharps isn't quite as accurate but I love shooting it.

Steve

[Don Dixon]

AAAnnnnnd back to the original question posited, Has anyone, or Does any shoot the Original style Lorenz bullet similar to that I posted in a link to a British muzzleloader board?

What don't you understand about:

1. The bullet drawing you cited from the British MLAGB site is not a Wilkinson or Lorenz bullet, no matter what it may have been called.

2. It was a modern -- as in done about 15 years ago -- compression bullet design by Greg Edington, and was intended for use in Parker Hale's Whitworth reproduction rifle. It is not an "Original style Lorenz bullet."

3. Since the Whitworth is not an approved N-SSA rifle in either original or reproduction form, we can't shoot them in N-SSA competition. Consequently, we're not going to have competition experience with that bullet in N-SSA matches. For fun maybe, but I don't think that Greg made and sold very many of the moulds. The bullet would have been of more interest to someone who shot long gun in Muzzle Loader Associaitons International Committee (MLAIC) international style competition.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[PoorJack]

What don't you understand about:

1. The bullet drawing you cited from the British MLAGB site is not a Wilkinson or Lorenz bullet, no matter what it may have been called.

2. It was a modern -- as in done about 15 years ago -- compression bullet design by Greg Edington, and was intended for use in Parker Hale's Whitworth reproduction rifle. It is not an "Original style Lorenz bullet."

3. Since the Whitworth is not an approved N-SSA rifle in either original or reproduction form, we can't shoot them in N-SSA competition. Consequently, we're not going to have competition experience with that bullet in N-SSA matches. For fun maybe, but I don't think that Greg made and sold very many of the moulds. The bullet would have been of more interest to someone who shot long gun in Muzzle Loader Associaitons International Committee (MLAIC) international style competition.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

The original post was about the original Lorenz bullet and if anyone has used it in competition. The link to the british site was for comparison purposes with illustration of Edington's variation on the Lorenz in 45cal.

Note this bullet from Pedersoli-
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/rivista-dettaglio.asp/l_en/idne_63/the-19th-century-concal-bullet-revolution.html
Note two deep compression grooves and read the last paragraph of the article. From the historic comparisons, the Lorenz had higher MV, higher BC, flatter trajectory and better efficiency. Granted, this was for the 54cal version, but some of those characteristics should still be present in a 58cal version.

The Moose bullet is a version of the Picket bullet with a compression groove. And yes, Edington did make some molds. I haven't played any with a 2 groove Edington nor have I personally seen a mold. The "Moose Wilkinson" picket with one groove didn't shoot very well out of my P53 Euroarms with original barrel. My guess is from the experiments, it was having fouling issues pretty quickly. So Don, while you are well versed in the Lorenz and AustroHungarian muskets, what part of my question is not obvious? In the search for a bullet that is reliably stable with less fouling issues, has anyone played with the ORIGINAL style Lorenz in 58cal with respect to our barrels and competition format?

[Don Dixon]

As I said in my posts above I have used the Lorenz design in competition -- for about 20 years. Greg Edington designed and had Lee manufacture moulds for both .54 and .58 caliber two groove compression bullets. In comparing measured drawings, they were pretty close to Lorenz's original design. Nothing else out there is. The k.k. Army swaged its bullets, and I you could find one of the moulds that the Vienna arsenal made for the Confederates you probably wouldn't want to use it. I started shooting Greg's bullets after the moulds came out, and they shot very well in my Pattern 1858 .577 caliber Enfields, my .58 caliber S&S Richmond carbine, and my .54 caliber Muster 1854 Dixie Jägerstutzen reproduction; more accurate and easier to cast than Minies once I learned how to shoot them. When Greg came out with the single groove compression bullet moulds in .54 and .58 caliber I started using them after I tested them. The single groove bullet is very effective at N-SSA shooting distances: 50 and 100 yards. If I was going to compete at longer distances, I would use the two groove bullet.

I haven't been in a posiiton to observe what you are doing with your bullets and firearm. But, you should not have fouling issues with the Lorenz compression design, assuming that:

1. The bore of your weapon is properly made and in good order. If it is rough, it will foul with any bullet you use. System Lorenz compression bullets foul less than anything else out there since they are very effective at scraping the crud out of barrels when they are fired. I have shot more than 100 rounds in practice, and the last bullets went down the bore just as smoothly as the first (i..e., essentially zero fouling).

2. Use only dead soft pure lead to cast your compression bullets. Harder lead will not properly compress.

3. Look to the fit of the bullet to your bore. No more than .001-.002 inches under bore size. Measure the bore with machinist's plug gauges, not with a dial caliper. And, measure the bullets. Spray the bullets with lube that you would use to lubricate and size modern brass cases (Dillon Case Lubricant works well), and use a push through sizing die to size the bullets; not a lubrisizer. The lubrisizer will partially compress the bullets in the sizing process. Wipe the lubricant off of the bullets after they are sized so that they don't pick up too much powder in the cartridge tube.

4. Use very soft lubricant (I recommend MCM). Don't fill the compression grooves -- they are NOT lubrication grooves -- when lubricating the bullets. If the groove(s) is filled with lube it(they) can't compress to take the rifling, and the shot will be inaccurate to very inaccurate. Given the fit of bullet to bore, lube in the compression grooves is essentially not compressible.

5. Use enough powder. I use 45 grains of Swiss FFFg for both .54 and .58 caliber loads. That would equate to a bit more than 50 grains of GOEX FFFg. Swiss powder fouls less than anything else out there, and based upon my chronograph testing gives extremely consistent standard deviations from lot to lot. A load that works well in the cool dampness of spring, may not work well in the hot dry summer. So, use enough powder to ensure compression of the bullet under all climatic conditions. If you're recoil shy you're out of luck. Having been brought up shooting M-14 National Match rifles for the U.S. Army and full bore target rifles, I'm not.

If this doesn't work, re-read it. If it still doesn't work, you need a new barrel, or perhaps a new shooter.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[RaiderANV]

We need a LIKE button!!! Great post Don

[PoorJack]

Don-

As stated, I tried the Moose version in my P53 Euroarms Enfield-

1) Bore looks ok, measured 580. Rapine trash cans shoot into just under 2in before I quit messing with that gun. Moose Wilksons shot about the same with 45gr 3f Goex, Beeswax/Crisco 50/50 only on the bottom groove as shown in pic earlier in thread. Compression groove was clean. Started fouling out at about 5-7 shots and got progressively worse. I think a better barrel may be in order for that musket, but my Colts both shoot a similar load of 3f OE and LL into an inch. My musketoon has a Whitacre barrel and it's a great shooter. The PH 2 band is stock, but it shoots with the Colts and musketoon. Again, problem with Trash can is stability past 50. None of my guns seem to like the Hogdon much. No combination I've tested yet will match the trash cans at 50.

2) I only use dead soft as I can get for muskets. My source is XRay room lead.

3) Bullets I was sent were sized to 579 and dipped in lube I was using at the time (50/50 Crisco/Bees).

4) I would love to try the Lorenz as originally designed in 58cal with my current powder and lube combo. I'm using 3f and 2f Old E with much less fouling and Lens Lube. As stated before, the Rapine TC will shoot into 1in in both my Colt Contracts and my PHs are shooting the Lee version into a similar size hole. BUT this bullet is not stable at 100yds, again, I'd love to try something else. For the PHs, I've tried the 575213 and a "New" Minie by Lee. The 575213 were ok, but not spectacular and the Lee, well, forget it. Yes, agreed, do not fill compression grooves, but I really want to try a two compression groove bullet. Anybody making a mold currently?

5) In my limited trial of the Moose version, I didn't have enough bullets to do a ladder test AND all I had for powder at the time was Goex 3f. I'm currently using OE as it's pretty close to Swiss in terms of MV consistency and fouling but more to that point, there's a Goex distributor 30mi from my house and his price is same as Back Creek. That means I'm not limited to Nationals visits to get powder. While I don't have a chrono at the time, threads over on a black powder cart gun board regarding MV consistency of a number of brands of powder were quite interesting. Swiss was tops followed closely by OE. Goex std and others were nowhere nearly as consistent. Fouling was least with Swiss and OE. Schutzen was pretty dirty.

I'd be game to try a 2 groove Lorenz bullet if I could get a mold. Recoil shy?? Don't have much problem with 500gr FMJ in my 45/70 at 1800fps in my Siamese Mauser. Yeah, it'll thump good on both ends. New shooter, now that's always up for debate :D I do agree that the Enfield may need a new barrel, but with 2 Colts, a PH, and musketoon shooting as well as they do, I'm thinking that gun is way down my priority list. What is on my list is getting stable at 100yds.

[Smokepole50]

Don......do you know of any reason we can't make a copy of the single groove bullet you posted a picture of?

[John Holland]

You might be able to get a 2-groove mould from Mike Owsiak. His moulds are Bronze and very high quality. That is, if anyone can put you in contact with him. He lived in NJ as I remember, and was with the Union Valley Vol's. I don't know if he is still a member, or not, as I haven't seen him at Nationals for a while.

[Don Dixon]

Don......do you know of any reason we can't make a copy of the single groove bullet you posted a picture of?

Smokepole50 and John,

I believe that the bullet in the photo was one of Greg's designs. Lee is no longer making them, and hasn't in some time. Since Greg copywrote his designs, Lee would need his permission, even if they wanted to make them again. NEI also made a compression bullet mould, but they are now out of business. The Moose single compression groove bullet will probably produce essentially the same results using proper loading procedures.

Compression bullet moulds are somewhat complicated to make. The compression grooves are so deep that the moulds can't be cut on a lathe. You have to make a cherry. That puts them outside the working range of most custom mould makers and into the range of a shop that does production quantities. Believe me, I've asked several competent custom mould makers, and they said they could not make a one-off mould.

Since they use cherry's, I've asked the Moose folks about making a .547 inch/13.9 mm mould so that I would have a one or two groove compression bullet that would fit the original System Lorenz rifles I collect. But, there has been no interest/response on their part. I'll ask the retorical question of how many moulds would one have to make to recover the cost of making up a cheery and equipment and then make a reasonable profit?

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[Lou Lou Lou]

Back when I wanted a back up for my 30 year old Rapine 515-385 moose needed me to order three to make the mould. Now it is in the catalog

[NC Nate]

Don-

As stated, I tried the Moose version in my P53 Euroarms Enfield-

1) Bore looks ok, measured 580. Rapine trash cans shoot into just under 2in before I quit messing with that gun. Moose Wilksons shot about the same with 45gr 3f Goex, Beeswax/Crisco 50/50 only on the bottom groove as shown in pic earlier in thread. Compression groove was clean. Started fouling out at about 5-7 shots and got progressively worse. I think a better barrel may be in order for that musket, but my Colts both shoot a similar load of 3f OE and LL into an inch. My musketoon has a Whitacre barrel and it's a great shooter. The PH 2 band is stock, but it shoots with the Colts and musketoon. Again, problem with Trash can is stability past 50. None of my guns seem to like the Hogdon much. No combination I've tested yet will match the trash cans at 50.

2) I only use dead soft as I can get for muskets. My source is XRay room lead.

3) Bullets I was sent were sized to 579 and dipped in lube I was using at the time (50/50 Crisco/Bees).

4) I would love to try the Lorenz as originally designed in 58cal with my current powder and lube combo. I'm using 3f and 2f Old E with much less fouling and Lens Lube. As stated before, the Rapine TC will shoot into 1in in both my Colt Contracts and my PHs are shooting the Lee version into a similar size hole. BUT this bullet is not stable at 100yds, again, I'd love to try something else. For the PHs, I've tried the 575213 and a "New" Minie by Lee. The 575213 were ok, but not spectacular and the Lee, well, forget it. Yes, agreed, do not fill compression grooves, but I really want to try a two compression groove bullet. Anybody making a mold currently?

5) In my limited trial of the Moose version, I didn't have enough bullets to do a ladder test AND all I had for powder at the time was Goex 3f. I'm currently using OE as it's pretty close to Swiss in terms of MV consistency and fouling but more to that point, there's a Goex distributor 30mi from my house and his price is same as Back Creek. That means I'm not limited to Nationals visits to get powder. While I don't have a chrono at the time, threads over on a black powder cart gun board regarding MV consistency of a number of brands of powder were quite interesting. Swiss was tops followed closely by OE. Goex std and others were nowhere nearly as consistent. Fouling was least with Swiss and OE. Schutzen was pretty dirty.

I'd be game to try a 2 groove Lorenz bullet if I could get a mold. Recoil shy?? Don't have much problem with 500gr FMJ in my 45/70 at 1800fps in my Siamese Mauser. Yeah, it'll thump good on both ends. New shooter, now that's always up for debate :D I do agree that the Enfield may need a new barrel, but with 2 Colts, a PH, and musketoon shooting as well as they do, I'm thinking that gun is way down my priority list. What is on my list is getting stable at 100yds.

I live in NC and can you let me know where and who your goex distributor is?

[Smokepole50]

At NOE......10 molds ordered in a group buy will get you a custom bullet. If Al can make it and I bet he can. I already have the ball rolling on a Lorenz design.,..

[ms3635v]

I shoot the Moose Wilkinson (sized to .576" for a .577 diameter Whitacre barrel) in my Razeed Richmond. I have been using this bullet for four years now and have done some experimenting along the way. I discovered that applying a small amount of Crisco to the compression groove area, and I don't mean filling it up and packing it in, and also using MCM on the base, I now can shoot longer without a fouling build-up. This small amount of Crisco, wiped on with my finger (I wait until the day of the match to wipe the Crisco on) does not alter the flight pattern of the bullet. And, as others have said, the bullet needs to be cast with the softest lead available and has to be sized to .001" under bore size. The Wilkinson's really do work very well.

[Maillemaker]

The way I have taken to lubing my Moose Wilkinsons is I set them base down on my hotplate that the lube is melted in, and then I dip them into the lube. If some lube seeps into the compression groove area it is OK, because the hot bullet allows the lube to mostly run out of the groove. I give the bullet a slight shake when before setting it base down on some wax paper, to fling off any excess lube.

Steve

[threepdr]

I've been considering having molds made to replicate the original Lorenz bullet. I had not thought of doing the same for a .58 caliber version. I usually only do molds that produce copies of originals, but if there is enough interest in a .58 version, I would consider it. I've never shot one, but looks like they would be much easier to cast than hollow base Minnie.

[PoorJack]

We're looking at a modified version of the Lorenz. On your website, that 69cal is almost exactly like the Moose Wilkinson.

[da172]

Good day Don,
You are probably the right person to answer my question regarding Lorenz style bullet being used in Wurrtenbergischen Vereinsgewehr 1857 rifle called 1857 Mauser. The riflr was designed to shoot minie bullets however it was if the same caliber as austrian Lorenz and I am pretty sure the Lorenz bullet must had been used in 1857 Mauser at some point back then. Is there any reliable source to confirm this?
Many thanks and Best Regards

Daniel

[Don Dixon]

Daniel,

In the late 1850s, Austria, Bavaria, Saxony, Hesse, and some of the other small south German states signed the South German Caliber Convention, adopting uniform use of the Austrian 13.9 mm/.547 inch caliber. Such a wide-spread adoption of a standard military rifle caliber in Europe under the Caliber Convention would not happen again until the adoption of the 7.62X51 mm rifle cartridge by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization 100 years later. Although they adopted the same caliber, they did not adopt exactly the same cartridge. None-the-less, the experience of the 7th and 8th Corps of the Deutscher Bund’s Federal German Army indicated that while the national armies of the independent south German states represented in those two corps had different models of weapons, the trajectories and dispersion cones of the common ammunition specified under the Caliber Convention were so similar that the cartridges of any of the signatories could be used interchangeably in the weapons of all the signatories. The Convention helped the signatories to act in concert with each other as a counterweight to the growing Prussian power to the north, and to the traditional French enemy across the border, by resolving the logistical problem of ammunition resupply. If you ran out, shoot your ally's ammunition.

So, while the so-called 1857 Mauser was designed by the Bavarian Army to shoot Minie type ammunition, it could use standard Austrian Army System Lorenz ammunition to equal effect. I hope that this answers your question.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[da172]

Daniel,

So, while the so-called 1857 Mauser was designed by the Bavarian Army to shoot Minie type ammunition, it could use standard Austrian Army System Lorenz ammunition to equal effect. I hope that this answers your question.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

Thanks Don. We share the same opinion however to convince sceptics I am looking for some positive confirmation of Lorenz bullet being shot from Mauser 1857. Have you come across any source actually describing the use or testing of Lorenz type bullet in Vereinsgewehr?

There is an interesting discussion on our forum whether Lorenz type bullet is allowed by MLAIC in Lamarmora and Minie competition in military carbines like Enfild and Mauser. Being a Mauser owner and having Wilkinson mould (from Moose Moulds by the way) Iam curious if the combination is MLAIC legal.

Brgds

Daniel

[Don Dixon]

Daniel,

In 1861-2 the Deutscher Schützenbund [the German Shooting Union] was discussing the adoption of a "standard" rifle for the shooting and military training societies across the Germanies. As part of the discussions an anonymous author wrote Das deutsche Wehr- und Schützenwesen [German Shooting for War and Sport]. Darmstadt and Leipzig: Eduard Zernin, 1862. The book is available on-line and discusses the South German Caliber Convention and the experience the militaries of the south German states with the Austrian caliber adopted under the Convention. It doesn't say that the Bavarians were using Austrian System Lorenz ammunition, just that the 13.9 mm ammunition used by any of the signatories could be used effectively in the rifle muskets of all of the other signatories. From our posts, I suspect that you may have at least some German.

Having shot pistol with the U.S. team in MLAIC competition, I'm somewhat confused by the discussion in your foreign shooting forum . Compression bullet technology, as represented by Lorenz's compression bullet design is indisputably legal in MLAIC competition in that it was commonly used technology from the period. The Swiss Army was one of several other armies that used compression bullets – in the Muster 1851 Federal rifle in their case. (Please see Schneider, Hugo; and Am Rhyn, Michael. [I]Bewaffnung und Ausrüstung der SchweizerArmee seit 1817: Eidgenossische Handfeuerwaffen [Weapons and Equipment of the Swiss Army Since 1817: Federal Small Arms]. Zurich, Switzerland: Verlag Stock-Schmid, 1979.)

Modern “Minie” bullet moulds are, at best, inspired by Colonel Claude-Etienne Minie's designs, rather than copies of them, but one can use the bullets cast from them in MLAIC competition. Carried to its logical conclusion, the forum discussion you have mentioned would require that only paper patched Pritchett bullets be used in Enfields, only Burton balls be used in Springfields, only Podewils bullets be used in Bavarian rifle muskets, etc., in MLAIC competition. When one moves to the rarer rifle muskets and more obscure official bullet designs, I have no idea where one would/could obtain suitable reproduction moulds. Further, the argument would preclude one from using anything but System Lorenz bullets and Podewils design "Minie" bullets in System Lorenz weapons, since the k.k. Army adopted partial use of Podewils bullets in 1863.

For my N-SSA friends, I would refer to our prohibitions against our use of historically accurate cartridges in our weapons in our own competitive shooting rules, even when we talk about our respect for historical accuracy.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V