Smith enigma

[PoorJack]

Riddle me this one-

3 different Smiths
1- Pietta/515 bore
2- Pietta/516 bore
3- Navy Arms/518 Hoyt reline/ Flees flash hole mod

Ammo tried-
Combinations of 3fg Goex and Old E up to 32gr.
Bullets- .516 up to .520 pure lead and "carbine" lead 340gr to 460gr generally sized +.001-2 over bore
Cases- New manufacture black plastic/old black plastic/orange urethane/brass
Lens Lube

All three guns have exhibited a jumping open on firing from time to time. Today with as low as 24gr 3f Swiss, 25gr 2f Goex, pure lead bullets, Lens Lube. All three guns have good top straps. All three have it happen anywhere from 2 to 5 rounds in on a string.

So my question- what causes a Smith to jump open with one load and not another. One thing I have observed, with one of the Piettas, the black case showed signs of pressure, but the opening isn't all the time, nor is the pressure ring on the black case when it happens. This almost appears to be random and I think it's pressure related and somewhere with the ammo.

I have a couple theorys-
1- Lube? Only constant between all guns, but the 24gr Swiss load was a leftover from another shooter (lube unknown). I have heard of lube issues in Smiths leading to horrid accuracy and very inconsistent velocity (read pressure)
2- Leading? Got a couple flakes out of one gun while cleaning (and only one)
3- Pressure curve of Old E v Swiss v Goex? Not really sure, but it's happened with all three types
4- Pure lead v Carbine lead? Also not sure about this one as it's happened with bullets of both alloys
5- Operator error on gun? It's happened to all three of my Smiths with different shooters

So you Smith gurus out there, any ideas on what to look at? I'm switching lubes for the next test session to take that out of the equation.

[Hambone]

Have shot a Pietta Smith for over 15 years with 33g Goex 3fg with 340g pure lead bullet with MCM lube in older black plastic tubes and have never had the top strap come open. Two other shooters on our team were shooting Smiths and I have never heard of them or anyone else having this problem. It sounds like you have a serious problem with the way the top strap engages the lug on the receiver. Have the top straps been ground down so that they have almost no spring tension?

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

Have seen a few single barrel, top lever trap SHOTGUNS do this.
One had an excessively worn locking wedge in the lower frame and three involved operator error when recoil motion caused rear of top lever to hit thumb.

Still, hard to imagine the Smith brass opening bar contacting trigger finger.

AND THREE are presenting this issue!

Suggest another shooter test the carbine.

Respectfully,
Kevin Tinny

[henrymstr]

Huh??? Shot a yeck for deckades.... no prob with opening up. Can speak on some lube/leading issues. Gotta clean between every event durring a match. Remember a yeck has deep rifling. The hotter the weather the worst the rifling fills in at a match. Thats all a lube issue. I shoot 3-1 crisco to beewax. Greassy..... 2-1 or 1-1... withis combo...forget it. Shot my best scores and it grouped great on the bench. 26-27 gr 3f goex. Blk Tubes. Oh yea, with the deep rifling i shot a .520 rapine. Idk guy....good luck if it helps.

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk

[Rob FreemanWBR]

I shoot a Maynard now, but when I was 10 and an up-and-coming skirmisher I shot a Smith quite regularly.

As far as a I can recollect, neither of them EVER leaped open while shooting.

If this situation is accurate, it is a VERY serious safety issue and the piece should NOT be fired until it can be inspected and repaired by a skilled/knowledgeable smith (duh).

Good luck in getting this remedied! Smith's ARE sweet breechloaders, but they should NEVER be doing this.

[PoorJack]

If this is a mechanical issue, it shouldn't affect ALL 3 guns at ONE time. ALL three have good top straps and the locking lugs are in good condition and no alerations have been done on any strap or lug.

I've posted all info on this on all three but the problem didn't start until I switched to Lens Lube. Len's shoots great in the muskets so I thought I'd use it in the Smiths as well. I was hoping to find out if anyone else had ever experienced this using Lens in a Smith. I'm going to try going back to Crisco/Beeswax/OliveOil to see if it goes away.

[Kevin Tinny]

Right on, Eggman:

While with The Bank of New England out of Boston, I was responsible for arranging the liquidation of H&R. H&R had financial issues accompanied by its product liability insurance having a gap. The company could not prove what was and what wasn't built during the no-coverage gap. The claims records included many instances of "their" trapdoors having the block fly open problem. The firearms made BY H&R had to be sold overseas, primarily in the Phillipines. Val and a few others got the collectibles.

Regards,
Kevin Tinny

[Des]

I have shot both a Yeck and a Pietta Smith and used only Lens Lube and had no problems of carbine coming unlocked. I am by no means an expert but would look at another lot of powder of recent manufacture just to rule out the powder as the cause.

[dougmichigan]

Sounds obvious but is the top spring screw tight?

[PoorJack]

Sounds obvious but is the top spring screw tight?

Yes on all three.

From the PM inflow, I will be checking chamber length on all three and looking at cartridge lengths. Even with that, I'm not sure that's the issue because ammo that came with the third Smith was ammo that the previous owner was skirmishing with and had no issue. I shot some of it to confirm sights and didn't have any issue then. Fast forward to Sunday and another session-

Ammo 1- 5 brass case, 25gr 2fg goex, 340gr Smith/Maynard bullet sized .001 over bore, LENs Lube- smooth insertion and extraction, so so group at 25 supported
Ammo 2- 5 black plastic case, 24gr 2fg goex, 400 gr Lyman bullet sized to bore, LENs Lube- smooth insertion and extraction, bullet is unstable in this gun, several keyholes, smooth insertion and extraction.
Ammo 3- 5 brass case, 24gr 2fg goex, 400gr modified 50/70 bullet sized .001 over bore, LENs Lube- smooth insertion and extraction, 2 bullets about 1in apart, gun started to jump on third shot, jumped worse on next shot, and about the same on the last shot. Group about 2in, 3in lower than first two.

At THIS point, 15 rounds fired with 2fg goex, gun is starting to jump at 12 shots.

Ammo 4- 5 black plastic case, 24gr 3f Swiss, 340gr Smith bullet, unknown lube, smooth insertion and extraction but cases showed and ring bulge at the joint area of receiver. So So group that shot 5in low at 25yds. Gun jumped open with every shot. (This was the remaining part of a lot that came with the gun and has had no prior issues.)

We're at 20 shot total now, with the last eight jumping. The last 5 were skirmish ammo from another skirmisher that had no issues at all in that very gun during a skirmish and I have shot that ammo from that gun when the gun was clean with no issues either. So I'm still thinking something with the lube is the issue but will still examine the case lengths to see what might be going on there. Again, this all started after the lube switch.

[John Bly]

Try giving a little texture to the rear of the locking block on the frame. Do this by placing some 240 grit emery cloth on the block and tapping lightly with a hammer. Do not rub it. This will increase the friction between the lugs and increase the force needed to open the action. It might help. It did on one I had several years ago.

[PETER HUGHES]

I have shot several Smiths over the years. Original and Pietta repro. Same or similar powder charges. 28-32 gr 3F Goex, Cream of Wheat filler. Crisco-beeswax 2/1 mix. I have had one of the Pietta repro's do this, and I know of at least one other Pietta that does it. My belief is that it is the top strap has lost it's spring like function, but I'm not sure, it could also be the top blocks are wearing although the corners are sharp ? As I still have the repro and no longer use it although it shoots well, it would be nice to have an answer? I bought another top strap, but it needs to be fit to the gun, so I haven't gotten to it yet.


Anyone else?


Pete Hughes 2029V 120th NYVI

[Michael Bodner]

Recall, the member with this issue has it on THREE different guns...

The top straps and lugs are all very sharp and tight on all three...

-Mike

[Francis J. Miller Jr, 02601]

Jack, if feasible, try having someone or yourself video the Smith(s) with a high speed video camera while being shot/fired and then slow the video down to see what is happening during the firing sequence... Safely of course... Just a thought...

[PoorJack]

Ok so I measured the case length of the several tube types we use. This is NOT loaded COAL.

Black Plastic-
New- 1.420-1.440
Used- 1.420-1.450

Orange Urethane
New- 1.430
Used- 1.430
Note that these are quite a bit softer than the black plastic

Brass (ones I have been working with)
1.393-1.399

From what I have found out, the correct length of the Smith chamber is 1.40. I haven't measured my Smith chambers yet, but again, none of them exhibited any tendency to jump open prior to switching lube. I like the orange urethane cases because they are a bit elastic and easy to extract whereas the black ones can stick a bit. The brass ones are looking like they have the most accuracy potential if I can get this ironed out. At 50yds, the first several that didn't jump open cut just over a 1in group. The next 4 that jumped open shot about 5 inches lower but still into a 2in group.

[CAGerringer]

Same thing...all three guns? Are you absolutely, positively, certain that your powder or filler hasn't been contaminated with even a minute amount of modern powder? It would take crazy over-pressure to force open a Smith locking device that's operating properly. And on three different guns!?!? My advice is throw out all your powder, lube, & filler and start over, before you hurt yourself!
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[PoorJack]

Same thing...all three guns? Are you absolutely, positively, certain that your powder or filler hasn't been contaminated with even a minute amount of modern powder? It would take crazy over-pressure to force open a Smith locking device that's operating properly. And on three different guns!?!? My advice is throw out all your powder, lube, & filler and start over, before you hurt yourself!
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

Ok, so I'm going to toss out 5lbs powder purchased from Back Creek at the last Nationals like less than 3 weeks ago..... really??

Powder measure has seen nothing but black since purchased new and is the same one being used with all my other skirmish guns, including 2 Colt Contracts that shoot into 1in at 50yds. No other guns are acting up, but they're all front stuffers. Testing regimine includes weighing every single charge and bullet for any gun under load development. And yes, I've verified BOTH my digital scales and my gravity one agree. My smokeless measure is on another bench or attached to a Dillon.

Filler? What filler other than the same box of grits I used before this started up. Maybe Yankee mealy worms engaging in sabotage?

That leaves only lube coupled possibly with case length. I'm going to fall back to my previous lube to rule out one or the other on Friday.

One other thing Charlie, this aint my first day on a reloading bench or a range including precision rifle, NRA HP, IDPA, IPSC, USPSA and I still have my first RCBS single stage from 40 years ago mounted next to a Dillon.

[CAGerringer]

Ok, so I'm going to toss out 5lbs powder purchased from Back Creek at the last Nationals like less than 3 weeks ago..... really??

Powder measure has seen nothing but black since purchased new and is the same one being used with all my other skirmish guns, including 2 Colt Contracts that shoot into 1in at 50yds. No other guns are acting up, but they're all front stuffers. Testing regimine includes weighing every single charge and bullet for any gun under load development. And yes, I've verified BOTH my digital scales and my gravity one agree. My smokeless measure is on another bench or attached to a Dillon.

Filler? What filler other than the same box of grits I used before this started up. Maybe Yankee mealy worms engaging in sabotage?

That leaves only lube coupled possibly with case length. I'm going to fall back to my previous lube to rule out one or the other on Friday.

One other thing Charlie, this aint my first day on a reloading bench or a range including precision rifle, NRA HP, IDPA, IPSC, USPSA and I still have my first RCBS single stage from 40 years ago mounted next to a Dillon.

Jack, you can do what you want, but I've shot Len's Lube and 30 grains of 3F Goex in my Smith for years and never had it jump open...ever.
I'm not questioning your knowledge, but I'm sure the Gent in the second phase of the Musket Match at Nationals a couple of years ago, was very experienced also...but, "Stuff happens".
So...good luck. Looking forward to finding out what's the culprit. (I'm leaning to the Yankee mealy worms.)
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[John Holland]

I must make a clarification at this point, lest anyone around the World who may be reading this thinks someone actually "...blew himself up..." at one of our matches. There was a catastrophic failure of an original musket on the firing line two years ago. Subsequent in depth investigation showed the individual had inadvertently loaded some rounds from a can of powder marked "2FF DuPont" which he had received from a friends estate. Unfortunately the friend had used the can to store some smokeless powder. The recipient did not notice the difference, hence the failure.

In the future please refrain from saying one of our members "...blew himself up..."

Thank you.

John Holland
Moderator

[CAGerringer]

Sorry, John. I am just concerned that Poor Jack will "catastrophicly failure himself up", if he keeps shooting these faulty rounds.
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[PoorJack]

Sorry, John. I am just concerned that Poor Jack will "catastrophicly failure himself up", if he keeps shooting these faulty rounds.
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

Let's be absolutely clear here- I am TRYING TO SOLVE A PROBLEM and that entails some experimentation NOT just go on blithely banging away with the issue. There is no way to know if the problem is solved without shooting.

But let's revisit the known and the commonality-

Known and Common-
3 separate Smiths-
3 separate shooters
Same bullets used prior to onset of problem
Same cases used prior to onset of problem
Same caps used prior to onset of problem
Same powder used prior to onset (experiment with original 3fg Goex from same can as prior to Old Enysford switch)
Powder charge- 24gr 3fg, 25 3fg, 28 3fg and 31 3fg. (Yeah 31 sounds high, but it gave best groups)

Changed-
LUBE
Powder- Old Enysford 3fg, but have experimented with the same lot of 3fg Goex from the same can prior to powder switch and still have the problem so even though it's on this list, it's ruled out because the problem occurs with either powder.

Other things checked-
Case lengths of black plastic (new and used), orange urethane, brass
Chamber length of one Pietta (near as I can measure with tools at hand, about 1.43 and chamber is cut square to rifling.

Again, I'm coming back down on lube as it's the only change common to all guns, cases, and load levels.

[bobanderson]

If it IS the lube, can you turn off the result by switching back to your old lube? That seems like an overly simple solution.

I own a good shooting Smith, but it sits in the rack in favor of a Maynard and a Sharps, so pardon my well intentioned comments.

This sounds like an over pressure reaction, so I’m leaning toward a different cause. For instance, have you introduced new lead to your loads, or maybe a new mould, even if it is the same listed size as the prior ones? If so, do you use a sizer of some kind to make your bullets somewhere near the usual .515 to .518 diameter you need for a CW era 50 caliber, or are you a dip luber?

I’m thinking that you have oversized bullets with hard lead, say about .520 or more, that is causing a pressure spike during ignition. I shoot very hard lead, but I run them through a Lyman or a Starr sizer to get them down to .518.

I have seen a Smith partially unlock during firing, but in that instance, it was a maintenance problem. There was foreign material between the latch and the receiver that prevented it from closing all the way.

[bobanderson]

To continue my last post, if all that is OK, I’d replace the top latch. Maybe it has somehow lost its temper and isn’t holding as tightly as a new one.

Another clue might be the group going lower on the target. If you shoot a higher pressure load, will the bullet leave the barrel faster and then shoot lower due to reduced time in the barrel?

A chronograph should tell you if you have velocity differences with these loads.

[PoorJack]

Bob- Since this occurs with all three Smiths, the source has to be in the ammo someplace. If it was top strap related, why all three at one time?

Lead is from the same pile I've been working through for the past year. I don't use much "carbine" lead straight up as I'm not absolutely certain as to the actual alloy so I mix the range scrap in proportions of about 3lb pure to 1lb scrap. One thing I did play with a while back was how differing alloys cast different diameter bullets from the same mold. The alloy I was messing with was a combination of 80% pure lead mixed with 20% wheel weight. I have a NOE mold that casts about 517+ to 518 with pure lead, with straight wheel weight, it's out to 520+. With the experimental alloy, I was able to consistently cast at .519. This was just an experiment done on a whim to see just how much control could be exterted through alloy composition. Problem with this was the actual alloy of the wheel weight was unknown. This test batch of alloy was drained and made into ingots, marked and set aside from my normal stash of pure lead. So long story short, I shoot pure lead for the most part with some range scrap mixed in for my carbines and from what I've been able to determine short of having a hardness tester, it's not much harder than pure and way softer than straight up wheel weight and I've been shooting this alloy all along prior to the issue so I'm pretty certain it isn't my lead.

A chronograph is now on my "must buy" list. It would tell the tale of what's happening but so far, I'm stuck with observing results. The group moving low on the target happens when the gun is jumping open so I think it's from the lube running out, the pressure building internally and velocity falling. When the gun starts to jump, it doesn't go back to normal until a very thorough barrel scrub, again, leading me to think about lube issues. So yeah, I'm going to look at the lube this weekend.

As to the "other" carbines, a Maynard feels like a Red Ryder in my hands and sorry, just don't like it. A Sharps on the other hand, well, I could be pursuaded without much difficulty at this point.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Dave
let me be the first to offer to take the three bad Smiths for $150😀

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, again, Poor Jack:

Your "communality" listing included three different shooters.
Just to be clear, did all three experience the same self-opening problem, please?

Also, have you tried ANY ONE ELSE's loaded ammo, especially witb BRASS cases, and if so, what happened, please?

If the brass cased loads of the other shooter worked fine in your gun AND your BRASS cased loads had MORE closing resistance, that should be a place for study.

Respectfully,
Kevin Tinny

[PoorJack]

Hello, again, Poor Jack:

Your "communality" listing included three different shooters.
Just to be clear, did all three experience the same self-opening problem, please?

Also, have you tried ANY ONE ELSE's loaded ammo, especially witb BRASS cases, and if so, what happened, please?

If the brass cased loads of the other shooter worked fine in your gun AND your BRASS cased loads had MORE closing resistance, that should be a place for study.

Respectfully,
Kevin Tinny

Yes on each experiencing the issue.
Have shot plastic cased ammo from another skirmisher through each gun with no issue. Haven't shot anyone else's brass cases but measurements of my cases and chamber indicate the shouldn't be an issue and the guns all close fine on my brass cases.

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, Jack:

Based upon the other plastc guy's cases not being a problem, at this time my money is on over length plastic cases. But, if the powder charge is compressed, especially 3F and an over diameter bullet is combined, pressures WILL cause distorted plastic cases that will not subsequently chamber AND the very self opening condition you observe.

If you got smaller groups with Len's, it would be very strange that lube, alone, could be the cause. In over 50 years of active b-p, cast, lubed bullet work, I don't see how lube could do this mechanical thing.

I want to recall that one poster said he had his Pietta Smith self-open.
If you revert to the other lube with no issues.......

Kevin

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, Poor Jack:

If you have learned more and perhaps solved your problem, please share details.

Very respectfully,
Kevin Tinny

[PoorJack]

This weekends results-

The plastic cases have been measured. Nominal chamber length is 1.4in and mine, as close as I can measure, is about 1.43. Measured plastic cases, both black and orange urethane. The black ones are anywhere from 1.4 to 1.45, even the ones that are known not to cause an issue from the previous owner of the gun. The orange ones about the same. Bore was checked for leading and there is no accumulated lead in the bore. Bore was slugged and looks to take a 516 bullet, just like the previous owner said.

So the lube change experiment yielded no success. Two loads were tested, both with 24gr 3fg OE lubed with 50/50 Crisco/Beeswax and a spoonful EVO. One load was brass case, other black plastic measured to be between 1.41 to 1.44. Bullets were the Lee 518 and NOE modified 50/70, both cast pure lead, both sized to 516 and checked after sizing. Test was run offhand at 25yds since I wasn't really looking at accuracy, just does the gun jump open. First five shots went into one big ragged hole with the Lee bullet in brass cases. The next five started jumping and the last two opened the gun completely. Of course, the last five shots were nowhere near POA and the first five shots. Cleaned and brushed the bore. Repeated with 50/70 in black plastic. Very similar results. First five were one big ragged hole (this gun will be a true tack driver if I can get it sorted) and the same results as with the brass cases with the last two jumping completely open. The black plastic cases were specifically chosen to have clean sides. I mention this because those first five cases came out looking normal. The next five when the gun started jumping showed a ring on the case side where the plastic tried to flow into the joint in the receiver and the ring was pronounced on the last two where the gun opened completely. So two things were learned, it's not lube related and the gun is capable of outstanding accuracy if this problem can be sorted.

[Hal]

Can you post a picture of the "Ring" on the plastic case? I'd be interested to see that.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Over my time as an inspector I have seen more than one Smith with the boss located on the receiver (not hinge) with indents / peening. Both surfaces, on the top edges and the back face that touches the interior of the spring slot. Peening on only the rear face of the boss may be the answer and have just the right amount of added friction, maybe. More at the top than the bottom to cause a slight lip?

[RaiderANV]

Bruce's suggestion is what many of us did back in the day

[Michael Bodner]

Recall, this happens on THREE guns that the poster has....

[jonk]

I may have an answer for you (having not read all the replies).

I had a Smith do this very thing with a stiff charge of Swiss 3f. It wasn't the pressure.

Check your toggle (or whatever it is called) that you press to open the action.

Mine had the pin that limited the travel of the toggle sheared off. Ergo, under heavy recoil, the recoil itself caused that pin to ride up and open the action.

Had it drilled out and a new pin inserted, all was well, even with stiff loads.

[Kevin Tinny]

Fascinating, Jonk:

The thread is detailed.

I first wondered if his finger was jarring that lever, but he later posted that other test shooters had the opening problem with careful attention to avoiding finger contact.

Still, your EXPERIENCE is worth exploring. The lever could be removed for a few test shots.

I am a new Smith shooter, using an original, so am very interested.

Regards,
Kevin Tinny

[PoorJack]

Problem Solved!!.........maybe.....perhaps

So after running a test with two different seating depths, and no change, I decided that a tear down of one of the Smiths was in order. I gave it the usual cleaning and then started to disassemble pretty much the entire gun. Cursory inspection revealed nothing much out of order. Visual inspection of the locking lugs and top strap also looked ok. So I put both the lugs and top strap under pretty high magnification (think a loupe). What appeared to be just part of the color case hardening on the lugs was actually a very hard, shiny deposit of fouling with more on the barrel lug than the receiver lug. Bear in mind, this looks just like the case hardening, feels smooth and was not removed by any solvent used in normal cleaning and is only obvious under magnification. No solvent I had would touch it so a dental pick was used to scrape every bit of it off the two lugs (and it wasn't thick). Inspection of the lug engagement recess of the top strap also appeared normal to visual inspection. The shiny part where the metal contacts the lugs looked normal for a Smith engagement surface wear pattern. Under high magnification, the darker part of the engagement recess that looked like blueing and also was impervious to solvents, was also a thin coat of fouling. Again, it took a dental pick to remove it and it isn't very thick and no normal cleaning method removed it (I tried before resorting to more mideaval methods). Also, the fouling film I found on the barrel lug could only be seen under magnification by removing the top strap, was very thin, and looked just like case color and was also very hard. Note that this fouling wasn't sufficient to cause the top strap to not appear fully seated when closing the gun. This fouling also was very thin and was in an area where the metal surfaces don't quite engage due to machining tolerances and manufacturing techniques.

So now to test, I loaded up 7 50/70 bullets of about 420gr each with 25gr 3f OE in black cases seated to my normal depth (hey, seating depth didn't affect the problem so back to the accuracy depth). Shot them and no jump. Well, now let's continue, got out another 10 rounds of the normal Smith bullet rounds, also in black cases, and no jump at all from any shot in the entire 17 shot string. So I disassembled the other two Smiths and they both showed the same fouling issue in similar places on the top strap interior and on both locking lugs. Both also were impervious to solvent, looked like the case hardening and were quite hard. I didn't shoot the other two but I have no reason to believe this may well be the issue.

So my hypothesis, in the locking lug engagement areas of the Smith, I noticed the machining wasn't very consistent in that no two of the guns engaged in the same place to the same degree. Luigi and Gusippe weren't too particular with regards to precision in that area. Shooting the gun allows some fouling to filter into these areas and shooting stress causes this fouling to accumulate and be compacted to an extremely hard film in the low spots that solvent won't remove and looks like completely normal part of the material of the lugs and top strap. Couple that with normal lubrication protection from rust and the lubricant (NOT bullet) is somewhat absorbed by the deposit more so than the metal causing a "slick" spot on the lugs and the lug receiver on the top strap. Net result is built up spots on the lugs and the top strap that look normal but are quite slick and this build up is only a couple thou higher than the surrounding metal so the actual engagement is not on the normal lug and recess, but on this slick fouling deposit. It's taken quite some time for this stuff to build up, but all three Smiths showed the same issue to some degree and the removal and subsequent successful test on one leads me to think it's the issue on the other two. I'll test one of the others this weekend to confirm, but at the moment, I think this is solved.

So the upshot for Smith shooters- if your gun is jumping open and you can't find any logical reason for the issue, take off the top strap, seperate the receiver halves, get a loupe and examine the lug areas and the lug recess in the top strap. This fouling film looks just like case hardening or bluing and because it's compacted through firing stresses, it doesn't remove easily. You can't feel it but it is apparent that it's a build up when looked at through a loupe.

[Maillemaker]

Good stuff. I have seen hard fouling like that before on some of my guns - had to use a dental pick to get it to come loose. And like yours - it looked like case hardening to the casual eye.

Glad you got it sorted!

Steve

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, Poor Jack:

Will watch for this even though it may be applicable to the PIETTA'S.

Regards

[jonk]

Glad you may have found the issue. but for owners of Smiths in general and Piettas in particular, I would still point out the toggle bar pin as a possible culprit. Why?

Well, when you think about it, most of the force of combustion is forward/backward. The pressure on these is pretty low, even with a stiff charge. But recoil can still cause things to jump around. If your smith is opening, that thin little pin in the toggle bar that you press can still shear, and cause issue.

[Hal]

PoorJack,

Did you get a chance to shoot anymore and confirm your problem is solved?

[PoorJack]

At the Homecoming Skirmish in Statesville, my dad shot his Smith for the entire skirmish with no issues. I didn't shoot mine because I still don't have confidence in the load so I shot the musketoon instead. Dad and I both shot Smiths for practice in the individuals on Friday to see if any problems were going to arise but the lack of suitable accuracy in mine settled the musketoon decision. When my Smith is not shooting at least minute of pigeon even with some Kentucky windage, I'd settle for a slower rate of fire from a known tack driver. Like I've heard said before, "can't miss fast enough to hit anything". Dad was okay with his Smith but on Saturday, he was struggling with it so some further load development and exploration is in order this winter.

Also on the agenda for this winter is experimenting with the 45/70 type of Smith cases. Advantage I see in these is the absolute control of the seating depth of a chosen bullet and COAL. Accuracy is all about controlling variables and that's one varible that is controlled in the brass cases. Problem with the brass cases is changing that seating depth if you don't have access to a lathe or mill. To change it with the 45/70 case, just trim the case to a different length and reinsert into tube and test. I'm making up one set of 7 based on a nominal chamber length of 1.4in. I'll also make another set based on my chamber of about 1.42. Since I have a 45/70 and a number of old cases laying around, it's an easy experiment to run. If this works out, then either make more cases or get brass ones machined to the same spec.

Smith saga will continue......