Austrian Jaeger

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Anybody shooting one if these with the original bore? I picked up an unmodified one in nice shape with a bright original bore. A .542 bullet just bears on the lands all the way down. Grooves look deep. Curious as to what anyone has found what they like to eat.

[John Holland]

You have an unmodified Jager which was designed for the Austrian Compression bullet, which is known in the N-SSA as the "Wilkinson". Don Dixon can tell you more about the proper shooting of it than anyone else I know!

[Don Dixon]

The ordnance standard bore diameter for Muster 1854 Austro-Hungarian Army (k.k. Army) weapons (i.e., Type I infantry rifles, Type II infantry rifles, Jägerstutzen, Dornstutzen, Extra Corps carbines, and Muster 1860 pistols) is 13.9 mm/.547 inches. Some have somewhat larger bores. The k.k. Army swagged its System Lorenz compression bullets to .540-.541 inches and then paper patched them to take up the windage and bring them up to bore diameter. No bullets -- compression or Minié0 -- from modern ".54 caliber" moulds will properly fit the bore of these original weapons unless they are paper patched, since they cast at .540 inches or less. But, the N-SSA will not let us use authentic paper patched k.k. Army ammunition in competition. So much for the concept that we use "authentic" weapons and ammunition, or shoot the weapons as they were designed to be used.


The only modern bullet that I have found that works well without a paper patch in the bore of any original example of the five Muster 1854 long arms is the Minié bullet from the mould Pedersoli designed for their Bavarian "Mauser" reproduction muzzle loading rifle. It casts at .547 inches. From there, you have the usual problems of proper lubrication and powder charge. Personally, I prefer MCM and Swiss 3F.


Good luck.


Regards,
Don Dixon

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Thanks Don. I'd never get a .547 in the muzzle of this piece without short starting it. I have the Lyman two ring minnie which casts just over and sizes easily to a land riding .542 and a Rapine Minnie that I had Ray make up for me years ago and resembles the Lyman New Style that throws a .548. It requires a trip through two sizers to get to .542 without destroying it. I'll look at the Pedersoli but at .547 that would still require some serious sizing to be able to get it in the bore. I'll keep playing with it. Even if it doesn't become a skirmish shooter for me it is an interesting piece. Thanks again.

[Mike McDaniel]

If it's any help, Pedersoli is supposed to be releasing a mold for the Lorentz repro musket that is of original size and design.

[geezmo]

Jim,

Years ago Lyman made a minie, 542622. It has two narrow grease grooves and a wider band for the skirt. Sort of like a confederate gardner minie, but the bottom band is slightly wider. If you want to try a few, before you put the effort into looking for an old mold, PM me your address and I'll mold some up and send them down to you.

Barry S.

[geezmo]

Jim,

Disregard my last message. I just re read your second post and it sounds like you have the same mold. I was concentrating on your mention of the .548 Rapine and two step sizing. If your second mold is the 542622, have you not had any luck with it?

BS

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Jim,

Disregard my last message. I just re read your second post and it sounds like you have the same mold. I was concentrating on your mention of the .548 Rapine and two step sizing. If your second mold is the 542622, have you not had any luck with it?

BS

Thanks for the reply. Yep that's the Lyman mold I have. It looks like it should work and I have pulled a few out of the home range backstop that seem well rifled with good engagement. I was wondering if it might benefit from a thinner skirt since the grooves in the bore seem deep. I have only had two trips to the range with the rifle so some more range time with powders and charges is in order.

[Don Dixon]

Jim,

Have you checked the bore of your Jäger with a set of machinist's plug gauges? .542 inches is way off k.k. Army specifications, particularly for a Jäger, since they went to the most elite units of the k.k. Army. K.k. Army ammunition would not have gone down the bore of the thing, and if you pealed the lubricated cartridge wrapper off, the unlubricated bullets would have been inaccurate because they would have quickly fouled the bore.

However, I have run into a small number of contractor produced Muster 1854 Type II rifles which have .540 bores. My best estimate is that they were produced under a contract that required that they be made to match U.S. Army ".54 caliber" bore specifications. If the lockplate on your Jäger is unmarked and the stock has no cheeck piece, that might indicate that yours is such a contract weapon, although I haven't seen any Jägers built to U.S. specs.

If the bore is actually .542, bullets casting at .540 from one of the modern one or two compresion groove "Wilkinson" bullet moulds should work quite well in your rifle. For my .540 Dixie Jäger I size the bullets at .001 - .002 under bore diameter. Start with a charge of 45 grains of Swiss 3F or 50 grains of GoEX 3F. That, or a little heavier load, will produce reliable compression under all climatic conditions. The k.k. Army used 62 grains of essentially 1.5F. Once the bullet is seated in the plastic tube, swish the base once through melted MCM. You need really soft lube with these things. DON'T FILL THE COMPRESSION GROOVE(S) WITH LUBRICANT. They are not lubrication grooves. If you do the bullet can't properly compress when fired and performance will be inaccurate to very inaccurate.

Regards,
Don

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Don,

I just went and did my measurements again. Run bullet through the .542 marked sizer die, measure it at 541.5, drop mini mag light down the bore, insert sized bullet and look down muzzle. The bullet rides the lands snuggly but not tight and won't fall to the breech on it's own but still loads easily. Also no light is visible at land/bullet contact so I'm pretty sure it's not .547.

The barrel is marked T.H.Rotthaller with a crown/W proof and a W to the rear of the rear sight. Lock date is 855. There is a 61 and a 0 on buttplate tang. It has a cheekpiece and no ramrod channel.

I seriously wish it would be a .547 then my .548 NS Minnie would be perfect with just a minimum of sizing if any at all.

I've been playing with a Moose Wilkinson in a few of my 58's and it shows potential. I have been shooting it in a Yeck barrel in my 55 model and it responds well to 33.5 gr (It's what the Lee dipper throws) of 3F Swiss and my beeswax/Crisco/olive oil mix on the soft side. I agree that it's best to keep lube out of the compression groove or else you will get a lesson on the uncompressability of liquids.

What do you think?

[Don Dixon]

Jim,

What do I thnk?

Among the Austro-Hungarian gunmakers who worked on k.k. Army weapons, T. H. Rotthaller was completely unfamiliar to me. When I attempted to check "T. H. Rotthaller" in my copy of Josef Ahammer's book Verzeichnis österreichischer Büchsenmacker [Directory of Austrian Gunmakers], there was no one listed under that name.

I then Googled "Rotthaller" and "Büchsenmaker". That picked up a listing in the 1857 issue of Handels und allgemeiner Wohnungs-Anzeiger der kaiserl. königl. Haupt- und Residenzstadt Wien und der zum Wiener Polizeibezirke gehörigen Ortschaften [Trade and General Housing Directory of the Imperial-Royal Main and Residence Cty of Vienna and the Localities Belonging to the Vienna Police District]. A Theresia Rotthaler was listed as a Crown authorized gunmaker located at 6 Gärlneg Strasse, Neuterchenfled. Neuterchenfled is now part of central Vienna.

The Crown/W "proof" mark is not helpful. The k.k. Imperial government did not establish empire wide proof standards with marks until 1882. I have been unable to obtain a crib sheet for the large number of proof and assembly marks found on barrels manufactured prior to the time. Even the curator and master gunsmith at the Austrian Army Museum didn't know of one.

The lock: 1855 was the first year of production for Muster 1854 weapons, since the Emperor authorized production in December 1854. Rearmament of the Jäger battalions was the first order of priority. Once that was completed the k.k. Army started manufacturing infantry rifles. All locks used on k.k. Army weapons, even those on contractor produced arms, were manufactured at the Vienna Arsenal for standardization. The contractors manufactured their own locks on arms intended for export, or reconfigured older System Augustin tubelocks.

The ramrod was customarily carried separately from the rifle on the Jäger's load bearing harness until 1861-2.

The buttplate: Unit and weapon numbers were customarily stamped on the buttplate. When looking at k.k. Army weapons used in the American Civil War, that can tell you if a weapon had been used by the k.k Army prior to export, while absence of a mark indicates that it came out of the k.k. Army's war reserve stocks or was manufactured for export by a contractor. There were only 32 Jäger battalions, however, so "61 0" is not a Jäger unit/weapon number.

I wonder if the rifle, or the barrel, was manufactured and sold privately for competitive shooting, with the barrel manufactured to tighter than k.k. Army standards, and intended to be shot with a lubricated unpatched bullet. In an article in the Italian black powder magazine Avancarica, Roberto Vecchi described some unusual Dornstutzen he observed in the Tyrol of northern Italy. Until the end of World War I the Tyrol was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and many Italians from the area had proudly served as Kaiser Jäger. The standard weapons manufactured in Vienna by k.k. Army contractor Carl Pirko were marked with the monogram “CP”. Vecchi found some of Pirko’s Dornstutzen with a higher degree of finish which were marked in full with “PIRKO IN WEIN.” Aditionally, he observed a small number of Pirko’s Dornstutzen with exceptional mechanical finish which were marked “CP” and equipped with a set trigger. Vecchi described these last Dornstutzen as sniper rifles. Competitive rifle shooting has had a long history in the Tyrol of northern Italy, Austrian, and Switzerland, and I suspect that the higher finish rifles were manufactured by Pirko for private purchase and were intended for use in competition.

You have an interesting piece.

Rgards,
Don

[ChrisWBR]

Don,
I found your post to be very interesting as I have a Jaeger that came with a spare lock that has a set trigger. Mine was originally in pieces and was reassembled by Fred Lewis who shot it for many years until he sold it to me. The original bore was too rough to use so it was relined to .58, not sure what the original caliber was. I'll have to check the barrel for markings.
I also have another original Jaeger in .54 that is nearly mint. Most people think it is a repro when I bring it out.
Thanks for the information you have posted.
Chris

[Jim Brady Knap's Battery]

Don,

Thanks for the great detailed reply. Next time I'll ask, "What do you know?" ;) Now to get back to the range with it and do some more shooting.

Thanks again

[Don Dixon]

Chris,

If you are going to be at the fall nationals, I wondered if it might be possible for me to see your set trigger Jäger lock.

Regards,
Don

[ChrisWBR]

Don,
I will be at the Fall National, but working. I should be in the Stat house and will bring the lock up with me. I'll be very interested in anything you could tell me about it.
Regards,
Chris