Italian replicas

[bones92]

Sometimes it takes me a while to catch up on Muzzle Blast articles, but I just read one by Jim Van Eldik from the March 2017 issue. In it, Jim advocates a Euroarms P'53 Enfield (and other Italian reproductions) as a great way for people to enter the muzzleloading world at a reasonable cost.

The article mentions that the Italian reproductions don't get much credence on forums like the N-SSA, although I think there are many here who not only started out with Italian rifle-muskets, but who continue to use them to good effect in N-SSA competitions.

I immediately recognized the truth in Jim's article, as my own journey into muzzleloaders began with inexpensive Italian and Spanish rifles. But the experience with those rifles led me to learn more about muzzleloaders, and in the process, I was able to appreciate the finer points between a factory rifle and a custom one. What seemed like an irrational expenditure of money on a high-end rifle became more sensible when I learned to appreciate them (and the work that goes into them).

Accordingly, I now have a few custom flintlocks and one "custom" Zouave (with a Bill Large barrel). And I drove a good bit out of my way to get that custom Zouave!

So I will continue to encourage friends to find a decent, used Italian reproduction and try out this hobby, because that is how we can keep muzzleloading alive for future generations.

I'm curious to hear what others say.

[Maillemaker]

I've been shooting since I was at least 10 years old. I've been shooting N-SSA competition for 6 years now. I'm a pretty good shot.

My experience is, that generally speaking a competition barrel will shoot better than a stock barrel.

I have a Euroarms P1853 that I bought off of Gunbroker before I even heard about the N-SSA. It was a dog. I kept trying bigger and bigger bullets until I finally found that it needed a .584 bullet to fit well. But even then it never shot well. So I had the barrel replaced with a Whitacre barrel. It is now a tack driver. Sadly, Mr. Whitacre is moving out of the barrel business and has sold his rifling machine.

I also bought a James Rive Armory Richmond Carbine that came with a Hoyt-marked barrel. I've heard some confusing/conflicting stories about exactly how much work Hoyt actually did to these barrels, but anyway, it's stamped with the Hoyt mark, and it is also a tack driver.

I shoot a bone-stock Armisport 1842, except that it has been glass bedded. It shoots very well. At my first and only Nationals, where you have to shoot Expert class your first time out, I got to 10th place in 25 yard smoothbore with it.

I had a Pedersoli P1853 Enfield. It shot reasonably well, but I never found a load that gave me superior accuracy to what I had with my Whitacre barrel in my Euroarms Enfield. I still have a Pedersoli P1858 Enfield. I've gotten some decent groups with it, but again, not enough to get me to replace my Whitacre/Euroarms Enfield.

I have a Pedersoli 1859 Sharps Carbine, and it shoots very well.

None of my Uberti or Pietta revolvers are remarkable in accuracy, despite much load workup experimentation. The Walker is pretty good, but it's hard for me to hold it still offhand. I've had a Uberti 1858 with Ball Accuracy since last October - I'm hoping that a custom liner and the rest of the work will make a clover-leaf bench shooter out of it.

So, I guess it's a mixed bag. But my best shooting guns have competition barrels. I'm sad that Mr. Whitacre is no longer making barrels - not sure where one will go anymore to get a historically-correct progressive-depth rifled Enfield barrel.

Steve

[bones92]

Steve, so would I be correct in stating that the Euroarms at least paved the way for you to seek out better rifles?

That's really my point, I suppose. These Italian repros aren't top-notch, but they get people into the sport, and that's what is needed.

I am curious, however, to try out the Parker Hale 1853 that I picked up a while back. I view these as somewhere between the factory Italian guns and custom.

[Mike McDaniel]

The Italian repros vary a lot in quality, depending on the price point to which they were made. Never forget that many Americans think that a muzzle-loading firearm should cost half of what they would pay for a cartridge gun. It doesn't make sense to think that way, but people do.

It could be worse...at least you can find Civil War repros. The lack of decent non-military repros is hurting the NMLRA, badly.

[Maillemaker]

Steve, so would I be correct in stating that the Euroarms at least paved the way for you to seek out better rifles?

Not only did they pave the way, they are the pavement! :)

You can get custom barrels, but unless you want to shoot an original (which are expensive, and then you may have to re-barrel it anyway) then Italian reproductions are pretty much the only game in town.

Steve

[John Bly]

Dan Whitacre told me that he made quite a few rifled tubes before he sold his machine and that he would continue to make barrels with them. He also told me that the new owner of the rifling machine had agreed to continue selling rifled tubes to him in the future. Do not despair!

[Maillemaker]

That's a relief!

Steve

[Muley Gil]

My first muzzle loader was a new Zoli Zouave that my dad bought me in 1969. Shooting an as cast Lyman Minie 575213 and 45 grains of Goex FFFg, it would fire a 3 shot 1" group at 50 yards.

Wish I could still shoot like that! :)

[bones92]

I have an old Armi Jager manufactured Zouave. I have never fired it, and I have always sort of written it off, but I wonder if it is a very accurate rifle. My only Minie bullets are .577, and it seems to want something around .575 (meaning, none of my available bullets will fit without forcing them).

[Maillemaker]

Hi Bones:

You can get sizing dies from S&S firearms to use with a Lyman Lubrisizer, or Lodgewood makes a push-through sizer and one that works with most reloading stands:

http://www.ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SA450

http://www.lodgewood.com/Push-Thru-Sizing-Die_c_95.html

Steve

[John Holland]

The Armi Jager, although it has some cosmetic quirks, has proved itself to be a generally accurate arm.

[Curt]

Hallo!

A similar evolution for me. :)

Gateway drugs. :) :)

I started out with a Navy Arms/Miroku "M1863" Springfield when it first came out. Three years later it was a Parker-Hale P1858 "Naval Rifle."

Unhappy still... I learned how to custom-build, and ended up shooting my own M1855 Type II RM made out of Yeck M1861 parts with a Cross lock and sight, and a stock and barrel from my pard Steven Jencso for the next ten years. (Although I dabbled in custom Richmonds and Fayettevilles, and was about to try an "M" RM).

Curt