Need bullet size help

[dennyntx]

I bought a used 1853 armi sport .58 cal enfield I am trying to find out what size round ball and also what size mini ball I need for it. It has a .585 bore I bought a .578 lee mini ball mold and the mini ball will fall out of the barrel don't know what to do need help here as I am new to this but really wanting to get into it thanks for any help or advice you can give

[dennyntx]

Hang tight! Some one will help you. Where do you live?

True Blue and Diamond Hard,
Harry
3rd US
3626v
I live in Beaumont Texas

[RaiderANV]

Thinking you need to take your barrel to a machine shop and have them gauge it for you. I've never seen armisport bore that big. After finding the exact bore size you'll need to cast a round you can size .001 under bore size. I'm in McKinney Tx.

[dennyntx]

Also this gun has a 1:48 twist

[dennyntx]

Ok I will take it to a machine shop I was going by the owners manual it said it was a .585 bore I'm not sure but I do know I can drop a .578 lee mini right down the barrel if i turn the barrel down and tap it it will fall right out I can barely tap the mini with a hammer before I put it in and it works good it is just like a little to small

[Maillemaker]

A P1853 Enfield should not have a 1:48 twist. The P58 does. The P53 probably has a 1:72 or something.

From the Chiappa web site:

http://i.imgur.com/gPMoT7nl.png

A 1:1660 mm twist rate works out to about a 1:65 inch twist rate. So I'm assuming the "1660" is mm.

You'll notice that it is listed as a "58" caliber. This does not mean that the bore is precisely .580" in diameter. In fact, it almost certainly isn't.

There are a few ways to find out your bore diameter. One way is to use a set of pin gauges. Keep slipping in progressively larger pins until you find one that doesn't fit. The next smallest size is your bore size.

Another way is to buy a variety of bullet sizers, and then size your bullet larger and larger until you find one that won't fit. Drop down .001" and there is your bullet size you need. This method is nice because it uses actual bullets as the sizing metric, and that, ultimately, is what has to fit down the bore.

Another way I have heard of is to put a segment of brass rod down your barrel, then drive an oversized bullet into the muzzle using a wooden dowel. Then shake the barrel up and down, letting the brass rod pound the bullet back out. Then you can measure the resultant slug. This can be difficult on a gun with an odd number of grooves like the P53, though, because it's hard to use calipers to get a good diameter measurement.

Note that this kind of precision ammunition tuning is only needed if you want to develop super-accurate (like N-SSA competition accurate) loads. Civil War soldiers did not get this kind of precision-fit ammunition. Civil War muskets had bores that varied all over the place and ammunition had to be made that fit most of them so that they could be loaded and fired. The bullet is pure, soft lead and will expand and take up the rifling to some degree even with a few thousandths of clearance. Even worse clearance can still shoot reasonably well. Civil War ammunition generally used heavier loads than we use in competition and this also made sure the bullet expanded to take up the rifling.

Steve

[dennyntx]

Great thanks for all the information that really helps any info I get helps out so what would be the best bullets to use mini or patched round ball

[Maillemaker]

I can't help you with patched round ball information.

The weapon was designed by the British to shoot a smooth-sided bullet wrapped in paper and dipped in a wax-based lube. Essentially, a paper-patched bullet. Many of these arms were imported during the American Civil War, particularly on the Confederate side, where the predominately shot an "expanding ball" (Minie ball) that had grease grooves, and was loaded without any paper or other wadding down the barrel, with the grease grooves enabling the bullet to carry the lube.

Most cartridges used by Union and Confederate troops were variations of the M1855 and M1862 cartridges. The Confederacy attempted for most of the war to try and standardize on the British Enfield style of cartridge, and actually issued an order to that effect very late in the war, which was subsequently repealed. Probably because the Confederacy did not have consistent supplies of uniform-thickness paper and gages for sizing bullets consistently enough to allow the manufacture of such ammunition. A "naked" bullet is easier to get right in manufacture than the more complicated Enfield cartridge.

If you want more information on the manufacture of period ammunition for the Enfield and similar muskets, here is some information I compiled:

http://4thla.weebly.com/paper-cartidge-patterns-and-information.html

And here are some videos I made:

US 1855 and 1826 cartridges:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB3g6inwu8o

1855 British Enfield cartridge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzA9aXEyT-c

Shooting the Enfield cartridge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoMji4yqUec

Note that the N-SSA does not allow any kind of patched ammunition in muzzle loading arms.

Steve

[jonk]

Take whatever they say it "should" be with a grain of salt.

For a minie ball, you want 1-2/1000" under bore (not groove) diameter. Best measured with a plug gauge. Dunno that a machinist would have those. .585 is very big. I'd bet money it would fall between .575 and .581.

If you get some calipers, you can get pretty close by taking a known oversized minie and pounding it partially into the bore, than pulling it.

Round balls are pretty easy to figure out. Get yourself some balls of a known diameter than play with patch thickness.

When I shoot RB, I use a .575 ball with a fairly thin patch, about .008. Just enough to bite as I start it. If you have a tight bore, go to a thinner patch or smaller ball, or vice versa.

I'd be happy to send you some .575 Lee balls, pure lead, if you shoot me a PM, just to try, and some minies sized to various diameters.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Try it again....... Does the lee bullet, or any other, drop down the bore rapidly or slowly down like riding in an elevator? If it is the later you are ok with that bullet. You use a dry bullet to try this. A lubed bullet could get stuck. Plug the nipple hole with cloth when you do this. This is an old school trial for the correct bullet size.

[hobbler]

Not that it means a thing but mine of the same make and model has a 0.577-0.578 bore.
With my two band Armisport Fremont having a .696 bore I expected the worse of the P53 but was pleasantly surprised.

[hobbler]

By the way, my Armisport P53 has a 48" twist...
Do they still sell those Josie Wales brass tube Hollywood looking scopes?:rolleyes:

[Curt]

Hallo!

I had one once that had a .581 bore. Another had a .582.

In brief, a fast twist stabilizes a patched round. A slower twist like in the 60's or 70's does better with Minies. And, it i not unusual to find fast twists with deeper rifling grooves and more of them (versus say three broad ones for a Springfield or Enfield RM)..

A fair Rule of Thumb for patched round ball, once you know your actual bore size... is a ball say .570 in a .580 bore with .010 patching or .560 with .020. Or even .015 or .018. Depending on rifling depth and shape, that may even be a tighter fit like a .575 and a .015 patch. Etc.

Individual muzzleloaders can have special needs as to what they like best when it comes to powder, powder charge, ball type and weight, lube, and patching which not match mine or the next lad's.

Curt