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Margo Weathers
07-06-2017, 12:23 PM
Can female competitors wear a period dress when competing? I'm talking about what Civil War period poor women wore on the farm, not the kind of dress with the hoop skirt that sticks out. Just a very simple CW period a-line dress that is narrow and close fitting. Sort of like what present day Amish women wear. I think they might be referred to as a 'day dress'. Sorry but I'm not a girlie-girl so I don't know the terminology. Thanks!

Hal
07-06-2017, 12:53 PM
I'll be interested to know the answer to this. My wife shoots. After our first skirmish, we were walking along. She said she had a good time, but thought she "Looked like a boy". I assured her that wasn't the case. She's not a girlie girl either, but she might be interested in something like that if it's an option.

Lou Lou Lou
07-06-2017, 01:15 PM
This came up a few years ago. Short answer is all members compete in team event in team uniform. She can wear period attire for camp life and individuals visuals.
sorry for the negative response, let the games begin

jonk
07-06-2017, 01:45 PM
The way I look at it is this. Women wore dresses during daily life. NOT in combat. If women could wear civilian period wear on the firing line, why can't men do the same?

Some women snuck into the service. Those who did wore the same clothes as the men did.

Besides, why would someone want to get a nice dress all covered in black powder grime and grease and sweat?

Jim Brady Knap's Battery
07-06-2017, 01:49 PM
I may be wrong and clarification would help in this case but while not being reenactors I thought we are still supposed to represent the soldiers of the Civil War armies not the general public of the time. It seems like womens clothing belongs in the dress competition not on the firing line.

Margo Weathers
07-06-2017, 02:04 PM
True that women 'snuck' into service during the CW and while it may be true that they may not have participated on the battlefield wearing women's attire, they certainly were on the battlefields wearing women's attire while tending to the wounded, etc.
I was simply wondering what the uniform 'options' are for females. It is my understanding that a 'team' uniform is up to each individual team, hence that is why we see some teams where all members are dressed alike and some teams everyone is wearing something different. And some teams only require their members to be in 'team' uniform for Nationals.
As for the comment about 'dirt & grime'...doesn't bother this girl at all. Makes no difference to me what clothes of mine get dirty and grimy whether I'm shooting CW period weapons or my modern weapons, belt fed 50 cal. or whatever.

Margo Weathers
07-06-2017, 02:12 PM
This came up a few years ago. Short answer is all members compete in team event in team uniform. She can wear period attire for camp life and individuals visuals.
sorry for the negative response, let the games begin

...let the games begin...you're so funny. I was just asking on behalf of a potential new recruit.
It's not true that all members compete in team events in team uniform. Some teams only require that their members wear the team uniform at Nationals and the rest of the time the members simply wear period clothing.

RaiderANV
07-06-2017, 02:30 PM
It's an N-SSA rule that all members of the unit be in the approved uniform which said unit supplied to the N-SSA at the time they became a unit or if the uniform was altered since that time and accepted by the N-SSA. The only exception is inclement weather and then only if the skirmish director making uniforms optional. This is the rule for all official N-SSA skirmishes. If a unit has members out of uniform they can be disqualified from winning.

That said uniforms can vary greatly on the Confederate side as some units have opted for their uniform to be any period skirt or trousers which was the "uniform" of their unit from the time period of the war which they chose to submit with proof of said attire was actually wore by their unit during the war. So it could easily appear someone was out of uniform if 7 of them are wearing jean cloth and one someone totally different.

John Robey
07-06-2017, 02:57 PM
Read Section 23 of the Skirmish Rules. Uniforms are required for company competitions, and the uniforms must be those approved for the specific organization. There are no exceptions for women members. This also precludes the wearing of vivandiere costumes. The late Roger Williams (may God rest his soul) spoke succinctly to this issue: N-SSA; where the men are men, and the women are, too.

NOTE: Some regions require uniforms for all shooting events, including individuals, and uniforms are required for all shooting activities Friday through Sunday at Nationals.

NOTE: Uniforms are required to be worn for "all National and Regional company and artillery matches." (Rule 23.2a) Uniforms cannot be dispensed with for regional company events except in accordance with Rule 2.14 (Inclement weather).

John Robey

Mike McDaniel
07-06-2017, 03:08 PM
From a practical perspective in the Potomac region, I'd say you could get away with it at an invitational...as long as you didn't make a habit of it. Potomac regionals, maybe. Nationals...probably not, certainly not on Saturday or Sunday.

Ron The Old Reb
07-06-2017, 03:14 PM
I don't think that Molly Picture wore a uniform.:D

Margo Weathers
07-06-2017, 03:39 PM
Read Section 23 of the Skirmish Rules. Uniforms are required for company competitions, and the uniforms must be those approved for the specific organization. There are no exceptions for women members. This also precludes the wearing of vivandiere costumes. The late Roger Williams (may God rest his soul) spoke succinctly to this issue: N-SSA; where the men are men, and the women are, too.

NOTE: Some regions require uniforms for all shooting events, including individuals, and uniforms are required for all shooting activities Friday through Sunday at Nationals.

NOTE: Uniforms are required to be worn for "all National and Regional company and artillery matches." (Rule 23.2a) Uniforms cannot be dispensed with for regional company events except in accordance with Rule 2.14 (Inclement weather).

John Robey
Yes, I know what the rules say but the problem is that part of the rules are enforced part of the time for part of the people.
Just like when I and a potential new recruit were spectating and we along with about a dozen or so members witnessed a man get mad because his weapon fouled and he threw it on the ground and had a fit and walked off the line. His commander, his teammates, the safety officer and other members did absolutely nothing! A MAJOR safety violation to throw a fouled weapon on the ground instead of laying it down and nobody did anything, except me.

Margo Weathers
07-06-2017, 03:51 PM
It's an N-SSA rule that all members of the unit be in the approved uniform which said unit supplied to the N-SSA at the time they became a unit or if the uniform was altered since that time and accepted by the N-SSA. The only exception is inclement weather and then only if the skirmish director making uniforms optional. This is the rule for all official N-SSA skirmishes. If a unit has members out of uniform they can be disqualified from winning.

That said uniforms can vary greatly on the Confederate side as some units have opted for their uniform to be any period skirt or trousers which was the "uniform" of their unit from the time period of the war which they chose to submit with proof of said attire was actually wore by their unit during the war. So it could easily appear someone was out of uniform if 7 of them are wearing jean cloth and one someone totally different.
Yes, I know this lil brother. Problem is that part of the rules are enforced part of the time for part of the people. And then there's the issues with rules being interpreted too many different ways by too many people. Take a look at the thread regarding coaching and spotting. Ridiculous.
Im not being critical of the N-SSA or any individual. I love the N-SSA and the many wonderful members. But we have an issue with trying to recruit new members and if they ask a question to five veteran members, they get five different answers about some of the rules. Not good!

RaiderANV
07-06-2017, 05:10 PM
THIS,,,,,,,,is the very reason EVERYONE should have a copy of the rules and actually READ them once then keep them close if ever the need arise. I too hear way to many folks "explain" the rules. Most actually believe they are correct. A few may have been 20, 30, 40 years ago but things change.

Phillip Kearny
07-06-2017, 07:05 PM
Phil wouldn't you agree that 90% of the N-SSA need to take a good look at their skirmish clothes and the Midwest is right at the top of the list.
Phil

MR. GADGET
07-07-2017, 07:18 AM
Phil wouldn't you agree that 90% of the N-SSA need to take a good look at their skirmish clothes and the Midwest is right at the top of the list.
Phil

With what some wear, why even try.

nothing will happen if the hammer does not fall.

jonk
07-07-2017, 04:05 PM
Phil wouldn't you agree that 90% of the N-SSA need to take a good look at their skirmish clothes and the Midwest is right at the top of the list.
Phil

My thoughts on that in general:

Our team is pretty solid about uniforms. Period green shirt, period cut/style pants, either wool or a suitable facsimile, period hat. What type of hat you would like is up to you. A few members cheat a bit and wear 'whatever' for suspenders (sometimes, myself included) but that's about as bad as it gets.

I have noted other teams that are pretty lax on uniforms. A pair of jeans and a flannel shirt isn't a uniform, it's farm gear, work clothes, wear around the house clothes, whatever. Some teams don't seem to HAVE a uniform; and if confederate, if they are wearing period style clothing, that is more or less appropriate.

It is the duty of a team commander, skirmish director, regional commander, whatever to enforce the rules. Not mine. Unless the media is there, I honestly don't care; I care about how the people shoot. That said, in principle, while I don't see that we need to carry it as far as the reenactors do, sure, it would be nice to see more people take care of their appearance in regards to uniforms.

To the Midwest in particular: for the teams that regularly participate, I would actually say that we're among the best in terms of uniforms. We have a few small teams (who doesn't?) that I honestly don't recall what they wear, so I can't comment, nor would I in a public forum.

I guess my point is simply this; if you join a team, you should wear that team's approved uniform. Women who want to portray nurses or other battlefield participants are more than welcome to wear the appropriate clothes, but not on a shooting team, not on the line. That's my opinion. And, the rules, as they currently sit. People wearing the uniform should take due care to make sure it reasonably represents the one their team is approved to use. Simple as that.

Now, if it is a particularly hot day and uniforms are called, and a woman shooter wants to wear a period dress instead, that's her choice.

P.Altland
07-07-2017, 04:41 PM
My thoughts on that in general:

Our team is pretty solid about uniforms. Period green shirt, period cut/style pants, either wool or a suitable facsimile, period hat. What type of hat you would like is up to you. A few members cheat a bit and wear 'whatever' for suspenders (sometimes, myself included) but that's about as bad as it gets.

I have noted other teams that are pretty lax on uniforms. A pair of jeans and a flannel shirt isn't a uniform, it's farm gear, work clothes, wear around the house clothes, whatever. Some teams don't seem to HAVE a uniform; and if confederate, if they are wearing period style clothing, that is more or less appropriate.

It is the duty of a team commander, skirmish director, regional commander, whatever to enforce the rules. Not mine. Unless the media is there, I honestly don't care; I care about how the people shoot. That said, in principle, while I don't see that we need to carry it as far as the reenactors do, sure, it would be nice to see more people take care of their appearance in regards to uniforms.

To the Midwest in particular: for the teams that regularly participate, I would actually say that we're among the best in terms of uniforms. We have a few small teams (who doesn't?) that I honestly don't recall what they wear, so I can't comment, nor would I in a public forum.

I guess my point is simply this; if you join a team, you should wear that team's approved uniform. Women who want to portray nurses or other battlefield participants are more than welcome to wear the appropriate clothes, but not on a shooting team, not on the line. That's my opinion. And, the rules, as they currently sit. People wearing the uniform should take due care to make sure it reasonably represents the one their team is approved to use. Simple as that.

Now, if it is a particularly hot day and uniforms are called, and a woman shooter wants to wear a period dress instead, that's her choice.
It is your responsibility, not the Skirmish Director or anyone else. When serving as a Line Judge, your duty is to apply the rules as written, communicate with the team Commanders about infractions and assess penalties when necessary. Choosing not to is a failure of your duties. Should a competitor disagree with your interpretation of the rules and wish to protest, you may enlist the help of an IG, if present, or the Skirmish Director

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Phillip Kearny
07-07-2017, 05:31 PM
Jon,
Well lets see. Last time I attended Sherman's Bodyguard was a Union team. Union Army shirts were not issued in green. I believe gray, blue gray, tan, and the natural 3 button off white. Midwest Region suffers from the softball, bowling league stigma : red shirt, green shirt, work shirt, etc. And those wash and wear light blue trousers are a hoot!! Don't worry about the suspenders as they were not issued. Please note my first post. I mentioned skirmish clothes not reproductions, facsimiles or copies of actual uniforms.
Phil

PoorJack
07-07-2017, 08:25 PM
It is your responsibility, not the Skirmish Director or anyone else. When serving as a Line Judge, your duty is to apply the rules as written, communicate with the team Commanders about infractions and assess penalties when necessary. Choosing not to is a failure of your duties. Should a competitor disagree with your interpretation of the rules and wish to protest, you may enlist the help of an IG, if present, or the Skirmish Director

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

If I'm understanding this, everyone who does line judge duty also has to know what a particular team's uniform should be. Who in the entire association knows that?

Coming from the reenacting world, levels of authenticity can vary widely. Just what is the standard for NSSA? That said, I've had some wisecracks about thread counting, but as of now, I have yet to see any team, even at nationals that could escape the farby accusation.

P.Altland
07-07-2017, 09:40 PM
If I'm understanding this, everyone who does line judge duty also has to know what a particular team's uniform should be. Who in the entire association knows that?

Coming from the reenacting world, levels of authenticity can vary widely. Just what is the standard for NSSA? That said, I've had some wisecracks about thread counting, but as of now, I have yet to see any team, even at nationals that could escape the farby accusation.
Unless the Skirmish Director waves the uniform requirement, it is your responsibility to recognize the difference between a period uniform or reasonable facsimile as allowed by the rules and a competitor shooting in a baseball hat, no hat, sneakers, jeans, tee shirt etc, etc.and call it for what it is.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

RaiderANV
07-07-2017, 11:33 PM
No Jim we would not be expected to know the unit's uniform. We would be expected to tell if someone is wearing something legal for any unit. If you see them in jeans or a t-shirt or camo ballcap you can rest assured you have a right and duty to question it.

ms3635v
07-08-2017, 08:23 AM
I think we should bear in mind that soldiers did receive shirts from home. I think that as long as it is the approved pattern of shirt, the color of the shirt should not be an issue.

Phillip Kearny
07-08-2017, 08:46 AM
Mike,
Do bear in mind the whole bunch is garbed up this way.
Phil

PoorJack
07-08-2017, 09:06 AM
Unless the Skirmish Director waves the uniform requirement, it is your responsibility to recognize the difference between a period uniform or reasonable facsimile as allowed by the rules and a competitor shooting in a baseball hat, no hat, sneakers, jeans, tee shirt etc, etc.and call it for what it is.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Define "reasonable facsimile".

What about the foot wear many use at Nationals to wade through the lake near the backstop? Remember I was a "thread counter" and there's hardly anyone on the line at Nats that I couldn't bust as being "farby" to some degree, including me. I've changed very little about what I wear from reenacting except for said modern farby waterproof footwear. Brogans just don't keep the feet dry when submerged but on regional skirmishes where standing water isn't an issue, I do wear them.

I see competitors with NSSA pins on kepis, authentic? Specified on a team's uniform? Allowable?

Period shirts, there are a ton of types of shirts that were worn and most were homemade on the Confederate side. Quality, cut and design varied by region, skill with needle and thread, and by material availability. I still wear a couple that my mom made for me that were copied from an original.

Read first hand accounts of the load out that the recruit would show up with and the stuff they thought they needed at the outset would blow your mind. Compare that with the vets with some campaigns and marches under their belts and the load got very much lighter. There are tons of accounts of the amount of detritus beside the road as new noobs started to thin the load on their first march. If a team wants to go all out on the uniform, I'm all for it. I've see the Zouaves in the old video and I'll just have to tip my kepi to those guys for pulling that one off.

No hat? Not everyone was able to keep the chapeau firmly seated in the heat of battle so I'm pretty ambivalent here.

Jeans, T shirt, modern hat- now that should be a no go

But back to the original topic, women competitors should be wearing appropriate soldier's clothing. The women who snuck into the ranks were often only found out when wounded and having to be treated in hospital.

Bottom line for me is, unless a shooter steps to the line wearing jeans, a ball cap and T, I'm not saying anything to them. Let's keep folks shooting and having a good time.

2kycav
07-08-2017, 01:23 PM
ok, I have followed this thread from the start, and hafta put my two cents in......Phil, if you are so concerned about our FARBY GARBY uniforms in the Midwest region, please show yourself at one of our skirmishes and let's have a heart to heart talk about this.......I am sure it will be an enlightening experience for all of my colorfully clad brothers in arms........otherwise, move on.......it's easy to put down and hide when typing such crap........

Phillip Kearny
07-08-2017, 07:25 PM
Private message sent

P.Altland
07-08-2017, 08:39 PM
Define "reasonable facsimile".

What about the foot wear many use at Nationals to wade through the lake near the backstop? Remember I was a "thread counter" and there's hardly anyone on the line at Nats that I couldn't bust as being "farby" to some degree, including me. I've changed very little about what I wear from reenacting except for said modern farby waterproof footwear. Brogans just don't keep the feet dry when submerged but on regional skirmishes where standing water isn't an issue, I do wear them.

I see competitors with NSSA pins on kepis, authentic? Specified on a team's uniform? Allowable?

Period shirts, there are a ton of types of shirts that were worn and most were homemade on the Confederate side. Quality, cut and design varied by region, skill with needle and thread, and by material availability. I still wear a couple that my mom made for me that were copied from an original.

Read first hand accounts of the load out that the recruit would show up with and the stuff they thought they needed at the outset would blow your mind. Compare that with the vets with some campaigns and marches under their belts and the load got very much lighter. There are tons of accounts of the amount of detritus beside the road as new noobs started to thin the load on their first march. If a team wants to go all out on the uniform, I'm all for it. I've see the Zouaves in the old video and I'll just have to tip my kepi to those guys for pulling that one off.

No hat? Not everyone was able to keep the chapeau firmly seated in the heat of battle so I'm pretty ambivalent here.

Jeans, T shirt, modern hat- now that should be a no go

But back to the original topic, women competitors should be wearing appropriate soldier's clothing. The women who snuck into the ranks were often only found out when wounded and having to be treated in hospital.

Bottom line for me is, unless a shooter steps to the line wearing jeans, a ball cap and T, I'm not saying anything to them. Let's keep folks shooting and having a good time.
By saying you're ambivalent, you really mean you don't care about the spirit of the N-SSA rules. Get a copy of the rule book and read Section 23 on uniforms. And yes, a hat is a requirement for shooting any Official N-SSA event.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

PoorJack
07-09-2017, 09:13 AM
By saying you're ambivalent, you really mean you don't care about the spirit of the N-SSA rules. Get a copy of the rule book and read Section 23 on uniforms. And yes, a hat is a requirement for shooting any Official N-SSA event.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Oh I do care, but I'm also a realist. If I had a book with the dress code for every team out on the line, do you really think a former reenactor couldn't bust nearly every team on some infraction or farbism? Think the Blues would not scream over being DQed for one member on the line with non period/non uniform footwear? What about the skirmish related accoutrements that either didn't exist or were never an issue item during the war? What about individuals on teams using leather that was never issued to their units? What about the "Cadet" raincoats worn? They weren't issue during the War and if you're wearing one on the line, then by the letter of the rules, your team should be DQed for wearing one if it's not a specified item in your dress code.

When I talk with skirmishers during the weekend, I often get a jab about being a "thread counter", and usually in jest. But let's examine the current state of affairs. Aging and declining membership for a number of reasons, and let's look at one possible reason that could well be a problem. Let's say you have a noob anxious to skirmish. Then he finds he has to have a uniform, and many of the ones worn by teams are not off the rack from a sutler meaning an expensive, purpose tailored uniform. Then he has to have a set of accoutraments, belt, cap box, cart box and all the support goodies for live fire. All this stuff before he can even step to the line. If he's blessed with already having a firearm that will pass SAC, then he has load development to do or he's just going to get really frustrated. With the other shooting disciplines out there that don't have a dress code, can you not see how being sticky about the uniform can be a big detriment to what we do? Let's be honest here, there are lot's of ways folks can spend their leisure time. Skirmishing should be exciting and fun competition, not another bickering session.

Why not take this approach, you guys who have been in for a long time, set the standard. Stick to the uniform rules personally and encourage others to "up their game" and follow suit. Lead by example, not orders.

FirinFlatTop
07-09-2017, 01:51 PM
what a waste of time reading this mess

Ron The Old Reb
07-09-2017, 04:39 PM
"what a waste of time reading this mess"
I agree. I think the team that came to the line wearing Togas at one of the Nationals years back had the right idea. A lot cheaper and a lot cooler.
But if they were a legal uniform someone would be auguring over what thread count sheet was legal and what thread count sheet was not.
Ridiculous

Wagonrider
07-09-2017, 06:15 PM
I for one like the kilts.

PoorJack
07-10-2017, 10:30 AM
A team wearing togas, now that's confidence.

Mike McDaniel
07-10-2017, 01:06 PM
A team wearing togas, now that's confidence.

Columbae delenda est!

Phillip Kearny
07-13-2017, 05:41 PM
[



QUOTE=Ron The Old Reb;63260]"what a waste of time reading this mess"
I agree. I think the team that came to the line wearing Togas at one of the Nationals years back had the right idea. A lot cheaper and a lot cooler.
But if they were a legal uniform someone would be auguring over what thread count sheet was legal and what thread count sheet was not.
Ridiculous

[/QUOTE]
JR and Ron,
It seems you must have liked 360 count pure Egyptian cotton. I just think members should at least resemble the appearance of US Civil War soldiers, not rodeo clowns.
For you,
Phil

Don Branch 12592
07-13-2017, 06:18 PM
P

[/QUOTE]
JR and Ron,
It seems you must have liked 360 count pure Egyptian cotton. I just think members should at least resemble the appearance of US Civil War soldiers, not rodeo clowns.
For you,
Phil[/QUOTE]

What about CSA Civil War soldiers? May we resemble rodeo clowns...? 

John Holland
07-13-2017, 07:21 PM
The Togas that were worn at the Nationals were not worn on the line shooting, but rather later on for the Awards Ceremony, "All Hail Jim Brady, Maximus.....!"

Phillip Kearny
07-13-2017, 07:31 PM
Don,
Good point, I should have written," AMERICAN" Civil War soldiers. Both sides need to take a long look.
Phil




QUOTE=Don Branch 12592;63403]P

[/QUOTE]
JR and Ron,
It seems you must have liked 360 count pure Egyptian cotton. I just think members should at least resemble the appearance of US Civil War soldiers, not rodeo clowns.
For you,
Phil[/QUOTE]

What about CSA Civil War soldiers? May we resemble rodeo clowns...? [/QUOTE]

Jim Brady Knap's Battery
07-13-2017, 09:15 PM
I remember that. It was a nice procession down to the awards ceremony to get the smoothbore distinguished award. I didn't know it was going to happen and my whacko team guys all dutifully Roman'd up with the help of my darlin' wife surprised me. After sprucing up my uniform I came out of the camper to find the procession lined up and ready. It was all very solemn and dignified(?). We proceeded down through artillery road, across the foot bridge, through all of sutlers row, across the main bridge to the ceremony all the while one of my "Lictors" (look that one up) repeating, "Make way for Smoothborius Glorius Maximus. All Hail Smoothborius Glorius Maximus!" It was very nice.

I meant to add that we didn't shoot in togas. Togas are not cool and are actually very cumbersome and difficult to properly put on and wear. Donning them was not a one person job.

John Holland
07-13-2017, 10:58 PM
Thanks for the full story and clarification, my Buddy and long time friend....James P. Brady!