law enforcement hold on flintlock

[tackdriver]

Heres another one I hope some one can help me with. I got into a bad car accident. I had guns in the car. The sheriffs took the guns I had in the car and placed them what in Cali, Is called a "Law Enforcement Hold". Meaning, now I have to submit paperwork to the DOJ proving that I am approved to get my guns back. I needed to submit Type of firearm PLUS serial number. One o the rifles they took is a Pennsylvania Flintlock, Custom made and of course has no serial number. NOR is any needed.

Even though I included a cover letter stating this. they returned my paperwork saying I need to provide a serial number for tjis rifle. Currently. I am trying to avoid the expense of a lawyer

I know most here live in one of the more sane states and probably don't have this type thing but does anyone have any advice on how to deal with these buffons?

[MR. GADGET]

Call your insurance and start a claim do to them being stolen from you at the time of the car wreck.
Number 2, move from the communist state.

[Maillemaker]

I think you are going to need a lawyer.

Steve

[RaiderANV]

Contact your local BATF office and talk to an actual agent and explain the problem. They should have no problem sending you an email explaining Federal law on the serial number issue. I had to do this a decade or so ago when an original long rifle broke through the box and the local post office saw an EVIL 200 year old gun and called the police. They took the gun at the urging of the post office employee then wanted proof I owed it, proof it was a legal transaction under both Washington And Virginia State laws, advise them of where on the gun he "required" serial number could be found so they could run a check on it and proof I was legally allowed to ship it through the mail even though I was not the shipper.
I call the AFT office out there and they said it's happened before. He asked for the name and phone number of the investigating officer. By the next morning the gun was back at the post office being repacked and on it's way to me without any explaination other then it's on it's way.

[jonniereb]

Wow. It's been a long time since I read something that made me this angry. What a giant pile of b*** s***! I'd say move out of that state but, as someone stuck in Maryland, I know that's easier said than done. I have no advice for you other than I'd definitely bite the bullet (pun kind of intended) and lawyer up and fight them every step of the way. If you do talk to a lawyer, I have a friend who's an attorney in San Diego. He does corporate/contract litigation, etc. But, I ran this by him and he recommended Dana M. Grimes at Grimes and Warwick. He said she's good with firearms issues.

Whatever you decide, good luck with it.

And, hey, props to your local sheriff though for getting that dangerous black powder flintlock off the streets. I'm sure countless drive-by's were thwarted and untold lives saved. He should be proud.

[MR. GADGET]

BTW

Are you a NRA member?

Sure they would help and give you direction and path to follow.

[Kurt Lacko 7862]

Just remember if you decide to "Lawyer UP" your looking for someone versed in firearms and the laws of your state. Any specialist in the field will be able to get you on your way. Here's the rub, add up the value of all your confiscated firearms and find out how much your lawyer is going to charge you. Unless some of those firearms are collectible I'll bet the fee is more than the value of your guns! You may win the battle but be prepared to lose the war! Good luck with however you choose to proceed.

Kurt

[John Holland]

I believe this case is about something on a level far above the dollar amount in cost. Standing by and doing nothing only encourages the Lawmakers and Law Enforcement personnel to continue on their agenda of harassing the law abiding citizens of their state. Personally, I would at least contact the Attorney suggested by "Johnnie Reb" and see what she has to say about it. Honor and Dignity are worth far more than money. Just my thoughts.

[Brownie 12th U.S.]

I believe this case is about something on a level far above the dollar amount in cost. Standing by and doing nothing only encourages the Lawmakers and Law Enforcement personnel to continue on their agenda of harassing the law abiding citizens of their state. Personally, I would at least contact the Attorney suggested by "Johnnie Reb" and see what she has to say about it. Honor and Dignity are worth far more than money. Just my thoughts.

Thank you Mr. Holland for saying what I would have, but far more eloquently.

[tackdriver]

Wow, this what I was afraid of. NO one seems to know what to do. We have a good gun rights law firm here in CA. Michael & Asscs. I contacted them and they seemed interested. They even had me fax them some info. My contact there hinted my fight might cost more than the $2,000 my guns are worth however. Can you believe it?
I tried calling the DOJ. As is typical with a govern agency, you can't get hold of a live person. They think everything can be answered with their stinking recordings. I even wrote them at the email address they gave. Been two weeks with no reply. I even wrote the National Muzzleloaders Assc, got no response their either. I haven't tried the NRA as yet.
That's interesting about filing a claim with my insurance. The thing is, the thought of losing this 1853 Enfield is driving me nuts. I have 10 years of worth of notes I have compiled with it... different loads, distances yadda, yadda.

Lastly, if anyone here has an 1853 Enfield made by Armisport can you tell me if they put a serial number on yours?

Thanks guys

[Muley Gil]

Wow, this what I was afraid of. NO one seems to know what to do. We have a good gun rights law firm here in CA. Michael & Asscs. I contacted them and they seemed interested. They even had me fax them some info. My contact there hinted my fight might cost more than the $2,000 my guns are worth however. Can you believe it?
I tried calling the DOJ. As is typical with a govern agency, you can't get hold of a live person. They think everything can be answered with their stinking recordings. I even wrote them at the email address they gave. Been two weeks with no reply. I even wrote the National Muzzleloaders Assc, got no response their either. I haven't tried the NRA as yet.
That's interesting about filing a claim with my insurance. The thing is, the thought of losing this 1853 Enfield is driving me nuts. I have 10 years of worth of notes I have compiled with it... different loads, distances yadda, yadda.

Lastly, if anyone here has an 1853 Enfield made by Armisport can you tell me if they put a serial number on yours?

Thanks guys

I had one about 12 years go and it had a serial number.

[Mike McDaniel]

Lastly, if anyone here has an 1853 Enfield made by Armisport can you tell me if they put a serial number on yours?

Thanks guys
On a factory-made repro? There should be a S/N on the barrel, unless someone defarbed it.

[RaiderANV]

Wow, this what I was afraid of. NO one seems to know what to do.

Thanks guys

Actually,,,,,,I told you to call the BATF out there and you didn't so you may want to retract your statement as premature.....

[MR. GADGET]

The repro manufacturers carefully mark their wares so they won't be mistaken for originals; .

Got to call BS to that one.
not at all the reason.

[John Holland]

All ArmiSport muzzle loading arms imported into the United States come in with a manufacturer's serial number.

[Ben Nevlezer]

Just my thought. Not sure how the laws work with serial nos. on antique firearms, but... If a firearm is produced with a perment s/n someplace on it and then it is removed, ground and or polished off, or " defarbed". Wouldn't that be illegal under federal firearms laws?

[Muley Gil]

Just my thought. Not sure how the laws work with serial nos. on antique firearms, but... If a firearm is produced with a perment s/n someplace on it and then it is removed, ground and or polished off, or " defarbed". Wouldn't that be illegal under federal firearms laws?

Yes, that is correct. Removing, altering, etc serial numbers that are on firearms is against Federal law and most state laws as well. Reproduction muzzle loaders ae not considered "firearms" under Federal law. State laws vary.

[tackdriver]

Actually,,,,,,I told you to call the BATF out there and you didn't so you may want to retract your statement as premature.....

I should have mentioned that I thought this was a good idea and worth a shot. It never occurred to me. I have an ATF office real close to me and will go there after the 4th. I was going to wait until Igot the results from them before I posted.

Due to my experiences with other government agencies I do not have high expectations..

Interesting about the Enfield seria; numbers. Unfortunately I am sure that its having one will give them more ammo on its need to be registered.

I'll let you guys know on weds how the AtF went

[Michael Bodner]

You might be pleasantly surprised with ATF. Unlike Law Enforcement that deals with apprehending criminals, ATF (at least the folks you need to talk with) are about Industry Regulation, etc.

Good luck!

-Mike

[MR. GADGET]

Maybe not applicable in this case, but the generic lesson is there. The law enforcement world revolves around serial numbers - CRIMINALS SCRAPE THEM OFF. Ergo there is a reason the repro companies put serial numbers on their guns.

Wrong again......

Go ask them, go ask atf.

They will help you out.

[MR. GADGET]

All ArmiSport muzzle loading arms imported into the United States come in with a manufacturer's serial number.

Correct.
That is there due to import laws.
the other big reason is a CYA, insurance, liability, warranty, and in the case of a recall needed or updates.

[MR. GADGET]

Yes, that is correct. Removing, altering, etc serial numbers that are on firearms is against Federal law and most state laws as well. Reproduction muzzle loaders ae not considered "firearms" under Federal law. State laws vary.

To add to that.

There is an ATF form needed and can be used to mark, remove and replace or relocate a SN if needed.
they are done all the time when guns are damaged, recovered, or other reasons.

[MR. GADGET]

Statistics to back this up please. Actually I'd be pleased to hear about an example

it is not statistics, it is import laws and federal regs along with business practices.

It is in no way to be able to tell the difference in real or fakes or because your local LEO wants a SN on the gun.

Find out first hand and talk to DP about the guns or regs.
They are international and must follow laws for many countries that they import to and from.
Has nothing to do with fake guns as you are leading people to believe. ..

Or call ATF.

In fact if I wanted to make a muzzleloader, an AR15 or AK47...... there is no need for a SN on the gun.
And that follows ATF rules.

as for relocating or correcting and placing a sn on the gun. Any MFG can do that and most good smiths building or rebuilding guns have a MFG FFL.

[MR. GADGET]

Stistics to back this up please. Actually I'd be pleased to hear about an example

FYI
if you want to see it at any point check out you local shop for some C&R guns.
The most commonly changed SN case is the import guns that have a SN located on the barrel.
Per ATF it must be located on the reciever of the gun. Add to that the letters are sometimes none standard and whe they relocat the SN it is corrected to english or can be changed completely.
You will also see the importer adding there name recorded address for importation.
There have been 100s of thousands Nagants, AK, SKS and mauser guns done this way.

On the other side of things there are many smiths that move a SN like on a browning hipower to checker the front strap or frame. You also see this happen with a bad guy grinding the grip sn off a gun not smart enough to know it is on the inside or other parts then needing to be replace for the person to get the gun back.

[MR. GADGET]

Most interesting. At risk of getting another "You're Wrong," it seems like most of the effort is toward establishing serial numbers, not eliminating them. I'm still anti - defarb.

Correct.
Establishment of a usable SN on guns that require them. In that it may be moving them, reestablishing numbers that are legal, not able to be seen clear, damaged.
But the guns in this case don't need them, as with home built modern guns, and many other blackpowder or any not true firearm.

If there was a problem with replacing barrels, moving or removing a SN on a weapon to defarb it ATF would have already shut it down.


So if you take a Repop and replace the barrel thus removing the SN and markings..... Is that a defarb or fake or what?

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Heres another one I hope some one can help me with. I got into a bad car accident. I had guns in the car. The sheriffs took the guns I had in the car and placed them what in Cali, Is called a "Law Enforcement Hold". Meaning, now I have to submit paperwork to the DOJ proving that I am approved to get my guns back. I needed to submit Type of firearm PLUS serial number. One o the rifles they took is a Pennsylvania Flintlock, Custom made and of course has no serial number. NOR is any needed.

Even though I included a cover letter stating this. they returned my paperwork saying I need to provide a serial number for tjis rifle. Currently. I am trying to avoid the expense of a lawyer

I know most here live in one of the more sane states and probably don't have this type thing but does anyone have any advice on how to deal with these buffons?

Like several have recommended here, you need to retain an attorney because the clock is ticking and under state law in California, once a law enforcement agency has given notice that a seized firearm is available for release, if it is not released within 180 days, the law enforcement agency is authorized to destroy or otherwise dispose of that firearm. Depending on whether there is a state law that regulates serialization to apply to antique firearms or replicas thereof, an attorney should be able to provide proper guidance on completing the forms necessary to obtain the release of the firearms held, or if CDOJ refuses the release, they can bring suit on your behalf. Either you can hire a lawyer and take your chances in court with whether the judge awards you with attorney fees or not, if you don't act quickly, you may still lose the guns because you procrastinated too long.


http://www.gunlaw.com/gun-law-articles/8-when-firearms-are-seized-by-law-enforcement.html

[R. McAuley 3014V]

As was suspected, just one year ago California Gov. Jerry Brown signed Assembly Bill 857 into law, requiring Californians who build their own firearms to apply for a state-issued serial number. Previously, guns assembled from parts kits officially flew under the radar. No background checks were required, and no serial number had to be stamped into the finished firearm, making them effectively untraceable. Homemade weapons have long been a pastime for gun enthusiasts, but some law enforcement agencies have become concerned as they’ve started showing up more frequently at crime scenes, and this sadly includes some muzzle-loading firearms (BP revolvers in particular) because felons could legally purchase them because BP firearms are exempt from regulation by the government like modern firearms. Leave it to California to find ways to close that loophole.
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2016/07/24/jerry-brown-signs-bill-requiring-government-issued-serial-number-homemade-guns/
(http://www.breitbart.com/california/2016/07/24/jerry-brown-signs-bill-requiring-government-issued-serial-number-homemade-guns/)
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/homemade-untraceable-assault-weapons/
(http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/homemade-untraceable-assault-weapons/)

[tackdriver]

Just a quick update. Yes, I was aware of the 180 day thing. Guns are 100 miles away so I hope to get this BP thing solved before I make the trip. I have not heard back from the DOJ regarding the other firearms as yet. I went to the ATF office this morning. No agents were in. I left my name and number and reason for my visit with the secretary and she said someone will call me.... anybody wanna place bets on whether I get called or not??
Ill let you know

[Ron The Old Reb]

I bet you get a call back. ATF is not the big bad bullie that a lot of people think they are. The problem is with the cops that don't know the law.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Just a quick update. Yes, I was aware of the 180 day thing. Guns are 100 miles away so I hope to get this BP thing solved before I make the trip. I have not heard back from the DOJ regarding the other firearms as yet. I went to the ATF office this morning. No agents were in. I left my name and number and reason for my visit with the secretary and she said someone will call me.... anybody wanna place bets on whether I get called or not??
Ill let you know

Is this flintlock the same rifle you bought from Tip Curtis? If so, did Tip by any chance serialize or otherwise stamp any identification (i.e. maker, address, serial number, etc) that is on the exterior or the underside of the barrel? If so, that might suffice for identifying the maker, model, and serial number? If not, you may need to contact CDOJ and make arrangements to have a serial number added to the rifle to comply with the new state law. Just forget about getting help from ATF. The feds are not going to ring up a state agency and tell them to release your guns even if they are BP and exempt from federal law. Likely, just like they told me when I imported a BP barrel from Canada, the ATF agent will tell you to have the other agency (in this instance, CDOJ) to contact the ATF. But this still may not fully satisfy the state's new serial number requirements, and for which ATF has no jurisdiction. Remember, you are dealing with state law enforcement officials, not a federal agency. And even if you were dealing with a federal agency, ATF has no jurisdiction over any other federal agencies anymore than it has jurisdiction in this case. And again, you really need to retain an attorney on this matter because there are just too many things that can go wrong.

[tackdriver]

Well I wish some of you guys had bet against me on whether the ATF would call me back. No joy. I'd like to say Im surprised but, after working 30 years with the County and in having to deal with numerous gov agencys since, I gotta say this wasnt a surprise or unexpected. I will try again in a couple of days, wait a couple and if no response, then call again and ask (errrr, leave a message) and ask to speak to a supervisor. If that doesnt work, I'll need to find who the Director of the ATF is and send him a note.
I havent heard from Ca's Dept of Justice (Bureau of Firearms) regarding permission to obtain my firearms back, so the 180 day thing hasnt kicked in yet. I have contacted a guns rights lawyer (michel and associates). They took some info and are waiting to for me to hear what the DoJ says. Did I mention I'd sent an email to the DoJ asking about the BP's? No response, I also wrote the National Muzzleloaders Assc about it. No response from them either..... Are they a gov agency????
Lawyers also mentioned it might cost more for them to get my guns back then what they're worth. ($2K). Unless I get lucky and they take it pro bono..

[tackdriver]

Is this flintlock the same rifle you bought from Tip Curtis? If so, did Tip by any chance serialize or otherwise stamp any identification (i.e. maker, address, serial number, etc) that is on the exterior or the underside of the barrel? If so, that might suffice for identifying the maker, model, and serial number? If not, you may need to contact CDOJ and make arrangements to have a serial number added to the rifle to comply with the new state law. Just forget about getting help from ATF. The feds are not going to ring up a state agency and tell them to release your guns even if they are BP and exempt from federal law. Likely, just like they told me when I imported a BP barrel from Canada, the ATF agent will tell you to have the other agency (in this instance, CDOJ) to contact the ATF. But this still may not fully satisfy the state's new serial number requirements, and for which ATF has no jurisdiction. Remember, you are dealing with state law enforcement officials, not a federal agency. And even if you were dealing with a federal agency, ATF has no jurisdiction over any other federal agencies anymore than it has jurisdiction in this case. And again, you really need to retain an attorney on this matter because there are just too many things that can go wrong.

I'll write Tip a note asking about the serial number on the underside of the barrel. Even if it has one, the rifle would not have been registered with it. I am also sure no one at the sheriffs station will take the rifle apart to check for me. Meaning I'll need to take a 200 mile drive to find out for myself.

[tackdriver]

Well I tried getting a hold of Tip. The phone number he has listed 615 654-4445 doesnt take messages and the email addresses I have for him and his son dont work...

[Kurt Lacko 7862]

I'll write Tip a note asking about the serial number on the underside of the barrel. Even if it has one, the rifle would not have been registered with it. I am also sure no one at the sheriffs station will take the rifle apart to check for me. Meaning I'll need to take a 200 mile drive to find out for myself.

You might want to call ahead to see if they will allow you to look for a serial number? If the firearms have been inventoried into evidence/storage they will probably not let you see or handle them till there is a final disposition in your favor releasing them to you. Just curious if you asked the attorney you spoke with if there was any possibility of prosecution for any of this, I'm not familiar with Cali laws?

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Well I tried getting a hold of Tip. The phone number he has listed 615 654-4445 doesnt take messages and the email addresses I have for him and his son dont work...

I'm not sure how dependable that number is, as it is the same phone number supposedly given on their 2015 Facebook page which is now unavailable. However, Tip's son, Tippy Curtis lists his phone number as 615-824-0402 so you might try that number and see if you have better luck?

[tackdriver]

Thanks for the "Tip". I talked to Tippy. He said his Dad does not put serial numbers on the barrels.

[tackdriver]

Finally heard back from the ATF. Basically he said as we thought. They are Federal, my problem is with the State. He had nothing else to offer
Im still waiting to hear from the state Bureau of Firearms (DOJ).

[RaiderANV]

time to call the local new station,,,,,

[MR. GADGET]

time to call the local new station,,,,,

In CA ?
they will be all for what they are doing.

There is no help asking communist to go against other communists.

[tackdriver]

In CA ?
they will be all for what they are doing.

Ya know that had crossed my mind. We have an advocate here called "Consumer Bob". I agree with Mr G about what the results would be, but it could be worth a "shot"..:D

There is no help asking communist to go against other communists.





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