Newbie Question:

[History36]

Hi all,

I have an 1853 British Enfield musket that we're looking to shoot live. When I tested the bullets in the barrel (the size is marked as being .577 Caliber, .560 Diameter, 536 gr. hollow base), we have a good 16th of an inch play in the barrel (unlike having that good snug fitting since no patch will be used as commonly associated with the mini balls). In other words, if we lower the musket - the bullet will slide right out.

However, a sutler noted that all of the info above is normal when I questioned this with the statement, "As for the live rounds the bullet should not fit snug in the barrel as after a few shots you will not be able to get them down the barrel. The British round(s) were designed to be able for the shooter to just drop them down the barrel even tho after two shots you will still need the ramrod." Just to double-check, does all of this info sound typical for those folks who have shot a musket live?

More than likely, I'll simply use .58 Cal. mini balls & lubricated patches instead. Anyhow, any pros, cons, tips, suggestions, input, etc. that could be shared?

Thanks for your time!
Aaron -

[jonk]

I'm not sure what sutler you talked to, but while it may be true that an original load was made a bit undersized on purpose (given the variances in manufacturing tolerances and the question of loading fast in combat) you don't want that. Not if you want to hit anything! :)

Size your bullets 1-2/1000" under bore diameter. That would be somewhere in the .575-.580 range, depending on your gun. A plug gauge is the best way to measure this, though you can also take a bullet that you KNOW is on the fat side (Say .585) and gently tap it halfway into the muzzle. Then pull that and measure it.

With a good lube, assuming the bore isn't messed up, you can shoot at least 10-15 rounds without having to hammer the bullet down. With a really good barrel and lube, you can shoot all day without cleaning.

I'm not sure where the .560 comes in, unless that is the diameter of a round ball for patching, but it is nowhere near what you want for the minie. Even then, the patch would have to be pretty thick, with that small of a ball.

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the N-SSA forum.

While the common term is Minie "ball", it is actually a hollow base bullet. No patches are used with a Minie. Lubed patches are used with round balls.

[gemmer]

Could his bullet be a Pritchett type for paper patch?

[geezmo]

Aaron,

It sounds like you got some information before you came here, none of which is any good. What jonk and Muley Gil told you is all true. First, to clear up some confusion, you mentioned that you have .560 diameter, 530 some odd grain, hollow base bullets. Do you have a mold or did you get those with the musket? Are they smooth sided (no grease rings) English Pritchett bullets, which can range from .550 to .568. If so, they are wrapped in a greased paper patch, which is part of the cartridge. As a beginner you don't even want to go there.

My advice, before you try to shoot that gun, is to go to the "Shooting Tech Tips" section of this site and search and read as much as you can on lubes, loads, sizing, molds and bullets. It will be mind numbing, but you need to do it. You need to get the experience and opinions of people who live fire these things. And while we all know what they say about opinions you can pick and choose what seems to work for you.

Next, try to meet up with experienced shooters. Let us know what region of the country you live in. There may be some skirmishers nearby, maybe even a regional skirmish that you could go to. Seeing it in action will make it all much clearer. Most NSSA members will be more than happy to explain this all to you.

Good luck,
Barry

[Lou Lou Lou]

Posting your location would help if there are members in your area

[jonk]

If you happen to be in the Ohio area, I have a set of plug gauges. I'd be happy to measure the bore.

Failing that... I'd be happy to send some sample bullet if you manage to measure the bore yourself. If it's a size I have on hand, they WON'T fall out.

Who made your gun? Original? Repro?

[Maillemaker]

Hi Aaron:

The first thing to realize is that what the barrel is marked as being may or may not be what the barrel size actually is. The first Euroarms reproduction P1853 I bought ended up having a bore .584 in size in spite of supposedly being a .577 barrel.

For competition use, most N-SSA shooters shoot a bullet that is .001"-.002" under bore size. In this way the bullet is easy to load yet does not have to deform much to take up the rifling.

The Enfield was designed to use an "expanding ball" type of bullet. The British, and the Confederacy attempted to, used the British Enfield style of cartridge. This was a smooth-sided, hollow-base bullet that was wrapped in paper, with the bullet end dipped in lubricant. The paper sleeve contained both the bullet and the powder. The tail would be torn off of the cartridge, the powder put down the barrel, and then the cartridge was reversed and the bullet end stuffed into the barrel, and then the remaining paper tube snapped off. In this way you ended up with a lubricated, paper-patched bullet that would be put down the barrel.

N-SSA competition does not allow this sort of bullet. The US cartridge was just an envelope to contain the bullet and powder. The powder was dumped down the barrel, and the the bullet removed from the cartridge and put down the barrel "naked". US expanding ball cartridges subsequently had grooves in them which were filled with lube.

In either case, the bullet loads relatively easily due to being slightly under-sized, but when the charge goes off the soft lead (and you must use pure lead because of this) expands like a balloon under the pressure, taking up the rifling.

If your bullet is too small, or your lead is not dead soft pure lead, then the bullet may not expand enough to take up the rifling well and the result will be poor accuracy.

You can use plug gauges to find your bore diameter. Another way is to simply size your bullets upwards in size in .001" increments until you find one that does not fit, and then back off .001".

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

If your rifle musket is an original, there is really nothing wrong with shooting a .560 diameter bullet, as the standard British regulation .577 bullets were a .550 diameter. Rather, if you want better accuracy, then you may want to reduce the windage (the space between the bullet and the bore) to increase your accuracy. Before the British reduced their ammunition to .550 in 1858, they had been using a .568 diameter bullet lubed with tallow (beef fat) and only switched to beeswax with the change to the new .550 bullets because of the India Mutiny.

When I was shooting an original .577 Enfield, I typically sized my bullets to .576 such that when I placed a bullet into the muzzle, it would just barely touch the lands enough to cut the lead. There are any number of bullet designs that you can use in a P1853 Long Enfield from the smooth sided 525 grain Pritchett-Metford style to a 400 grain Hodgdon North-South style to even a 315 grain semi-wadcutter (the last two with just 40 grains of FFFg powder).

Now, if you want to shoot long range (upwards of 300 yards), you could have an interchangeable barrel made to fit your Enfield like was done during the period with the P1853 Long Enfield rifle muskets produced by the London Armoury Company which could be equipped with an interchangeable barrel in .451 caliber, 6-groove, 1:20 twist with Kerr's patented rifling. The Birmingham Small Arms Trade also produced their own military match rifle in .451 caliber, using Metford or Turner's patented 5-groove, 1:20 twist rifling as early as 1862, so you do have other options besides just shooting .577. I am currently shooting a .453 caliber Long Enfield at 1,000 yards.

[Maillemaker]

If your rifle musket is an original, there is really nothing wrong with shooting a .560 diameter bullet, as the standard British regulation .577 bullets were a .550 diameter.

Be aware that that .550 diameter Pritchett bullet was intended to be shot paper patched, so the actual diameter of the complete projectile was larger than .550. Same thing for the .568 original projectile.

If you shoot a naked .550 Pritchett out of a .577 musket the results will probably be disappointing.

Steve

[History36]

Hi all,

Many thank you's for the many replies regarding my reproduction 1853 British Enfield musket! I actually live in southern York County, Pa. (right along the Mason / Dixon line and about an hour and a half away from Gettysburg, pa). The bullets that I purchased are the reproduction 'Captain Carney's .577 Caliber Pritchett Ball (bullet), .560 Diameter, 536 gr. Hollow base with clay expansion plug.' That's the only markings that I could find on the packaging. However, I'm thinking about returning these and simply using the lead round balls and patch combo instead.

As for the ball and patch combo, here is what I have to see if it is better (simpler): Hornady Brand, .58 Caliber, .570" part # 6120, for a box of 50 lead round balls for muzzle loading:

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/hornady-58-caliber-lead-balls-50-count-279-grains-570-diameter-090255261202.do

And, the patches: They are lubricated 'Pillow Ticking Patches' for use in .58 Caliber guns, part # 7138 with a .018 thickness:

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/hornady-58-caliber-lead-balls-50-count-279-grains-570-diameter-090255261202.do

Now, my dad and I did a minor test by placing the patch and ball combo together and it was fairly snug when we tried to apply a little pressure into the barrel itself, but we didn't push too hard or use the ramrod - just to see how well they began to fit. Again, things were snug and they were wanting to go. So, we felt that this at least was 'normal' for muzzle-loading, in general. I'll certainly do some reading as suggested, but what are some thoughts on the ball and patch combo if I may ask? At this point, this is what we're leaning towards...

Thank you again for your time and insight!
Best regards,
Aaron

[History36]

Hi all,

Many thank you's for the many replies regarding my reproduction 1853 British Enfield musket! I actually live in southern York County, Pa. (right along the Mason / Dixon line and about an hour and a half away from Gettysburg, pa). The bullets that I purchased are the reproduction 'Captain Carney's .577 Caliber Pritchett Ball (bullet), .560 Diameter, 536 gr. Hollow base with clay expansion plug.' That's the only markings that I could find on the packaging. However, I'm thinking about returning these and simply using the lead round balls and patch combo instead.

As for the ball and patch combo, here is what I have to see if it is better (simpler): Hornady Brand, .58 Caliber, .570" part # 6120, for a box of 50 lead round balls for muzzle loading:

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/hornady-58-caliber-lead-balls-50-count-279-grains-570-diameter-090255261202.do

And, the patches: They are lubricated 'Pillow Ticking Patches' for use in .58 Caliber guns, part # 7138 with a .018 thickness:

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/hornady-58-caliber-lead-balls-50-count-279-grains-570-diameter-090255261202.do

Now, my dad and I did a minor test by placing the patch and ball combo together and it was fairly snug when we tried to apply a little pressure into the barrel itself, but we didn't push too hard or use the ramrod - just to see how well they began to fit. Again, things were snug and they were wanting to go. So, we felt that this at least was 'normal' for muzzle-loading, in general. I'll certainly do some reading as suggested, but what are some thoughts on the ball and patch combo if I may ask? At this point, this is what we're leaning towards...

Thank you again for your time and insight!
Best regards,
Aaron

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Be aware that that .550 diameter Pritchett bullet was intended to be shot paper patched, so the actual diameter of the complete projectile was larger than .550. Same thing for the .568 original projectile.

If you shoot a naked .550 Pritchett out of a .577 musket the results will probably be disappointing.

Steve

But only if you consider a figure of merit of 8-inches at 500 yards disappointing.

[Maillemaker]

That's amazing accuracy for such an ill-fitting bullet! I didn't get that good of accuracy out of mine shooting it paper patched like it is supposed to be.

Here were my results using a paper-patched .550" diameter bullet with a variety of charges at 50 and 10 yards:

http://imgur.com/a/CXqgF

At 100 yards with service loads of 68 grains 2F Goex I was getting 10"-20" groups at 100 yards.

However I did have one decent 3" group at 50 yards with 55 grains 3F Goex.

This was shot off a bench with a Whitacre P53 barrel glass bedded in a Euroarms stock.

This makes me want to go back and play with Enfield cartridges again! I quit because I did it mostly as an academic exercise since you can't shoot them in NSSA competition.

Steve