Hoyt barrel 1841?

[4th Tex. inf.]

New member here. I've been shooting muzzleloaders for a long time, but never got around to civil war era muskets til a few weeks ago when I cam across a deal on a Mississippi 1841 with a Hoyt barrel on it. I've shot patched roundballs and bullets and I get a lot of "spat-boom" type slowfires. With minies, if I wipe the bore that usually stops up the flash hole between the percussion chamber and the bore. This flash hole is very small. I'd guess its about .08 or thereabouts. I'm guessing this hole is that small for some reason, but it sure is easy to stop it up. What is the solution? I've thought about drilling it larger, but I don't want to do anything without knowing if it'll work or not. Thanks for the help.

[Muley Gil]

Welcome.

It sounds like someone in the past didn't clean this very well. Once you remove the nipple, you should be able to get a very small drill bit into the vent. Using your fingers only, twirl the drill bit in the vent. You should be able to get a 1/16" drill bit in there. I would also pull the breach plug and polish its face.

[4th Tex. inf.]

Thanks Gil, it was dirty when I got it. There was a plug of fouling on the face of the breechplug that went up to the vent hole. I took the breech plug out just out of curiosity and to make sure I knew how it was breached. I cleaned everything up like new but the problem is that hole between the percussion chamber and the bore is very long and very small. Its drilled at an angle and goes through part of the bolster and then through the barrel at a pretty steep downward angle making what would amount to a flintlock with a solid touch hole 1/2" long. The spat/booms are not bad hangs but they are slower firing than it should be and that little hole is so danged easy to stop up especially if I wipe the bore, I just started wondering why it was made so small. I can probably get a 3/16" drill through there without hitting the threads. If I drill it out that big, would that have some unintended consequences?

[Muley Gil]

"...I just started wondering why it was made so small."

Well, if the vent is too large, the back pressure will either blow the nipple out or blow the hammer back to half or full cock. That tends to mess up your aim.

I woud contact Mr Hoyt and see what size the vent should be.

[4th Tex. inf.]

The guy I bought it from said Hoyt installed the barrel, so I guess its supposed to be this size. I've seen lots of caplock rifles with drums having inside diameters of about 1/4" and they don't blow the hammer back. And underhammer guns' nipple is directly into the main charge and they don't blow out...........much. :) My guess is that it has something to do with consistent pressure burns for better accuracy? Guess being the key word. Last night I took a 7/32 ball end mill bit and drilled straight down into that little hole for about half the length of it so now the length of the small part is about 1/8". It was about 1/4" to start with. Inside the bolster now the hole looks like the inside of a white lightning touch hole liner. Then I took a carbide 1/8" burring ball in the dreaded dremel tool and started at the center where the fire from the cap hits the bottom and radiused a sort of trough over to the round bottom hole sloping down as it goes and polished it up best I could. I shot 24 shots this morning and only had one misfire and a couple of spat/booms. This is a vast improvement. I wiped the bore several times during the time I was shooting and had good ignition most of the time. I think I will deepen my round bottom hole some more. The spat/booms I'm talking about might be something that some people don't notice or care about but a consistent lock time and ignition makes some difference in accuracy, mainly because the gun is moving in recoil before the minie gets out of the barrel.

[RaiderANV]

Enlarging the fire channel will get a chit load more blow back, burn out nipples way faster and best part is ya get to look like a cartoon after a few shots with all the powder burns and whatnot all over yer face and right arm.

[gemmer]

New member here. I've been shooting muzzleloaders for a long time, but never got around to civil war era muskets til a few weeks ago when I cam across a deal on a Mississippi 1841 with a Hoyt barrel on it. I've shot patched roundballs and bullets and I get a lot of "spat-boom" type slowfires. With minies, if I wipe the bore that usually stops up the flash hole between the percussion chamber and the bore. This flash hole is very small. I'd guess its about .08 or thereabouts. I'm guessing this hole is that small for some reason, but it sure is easy to stop it up. What is the solution? I've thought about drilling it larger, but I don't want to do anything without knowing if it'll work or not. Thanks for the help.

Are you sure it's a Hoyt made barrel and not a reline?

[Michael Bodner]

We're forgetting the original issue: Hang-fires...

Perhaps the caps are at fault... What type are they? German 4-wing or CCI Re-enactor caps?

Also, have you tried to clean the flash hole with an eyeliner brush? Just water and the brush through the bolster (and/or clean-out hole). It can easily be coked up and some water and brushing will restore it to its original diameter...

-Mike

[Charlie Hahn]

The touch hole size described is correct. The issue might be that the transition from the bottom of the hole where the nipple is may have a drill point rather than a flat bottom hole, or a crater. If it has a drill point and is below the touch hole you will need to do a little work in the base to ease the transition into the barrel so the spark does not need to climb up and in. This is a typical issue with musket either a new barrel or erosion from being used. Both these features can slow the fire transition into the the barrel and give a flintlock feel.

Regards

Charlie Hahn
410-208-4736

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Did you fire a couple of caps before loading to get the oil / water out just before shooting? As a newbe to muskets, I've noted other muzzleloading groups don't do this. The other is what condition is the head of the nipple / cone? They get mushed down and then the cap can't seat fully down. My 2 cents.

[4th Tex. inf.]

Thanks for the replies fellers, I'll go down the list of questions : Gemmer, the guy I bought it from said he sent it to Hoyt a few years ago for re-barreling. I have no reason to doubt him and I can see no sign that it might be lined. Mr. Bodner, I'm using new RWS 4 wing caps. Some CCI caps did the same thing. Charlie Hahn, the bottom of the nipple hole was flat but the flash hole to the chamber was drilled down through the nipple hole and is at a steep angle. The fire has to hit the bottom of the nipple hole, spray in every direction, then when it hits the wall of the hole where the fire channel is drilled, it turns about 70degrees downward for at least 1/4" to get to the main charge. I just did some "shaping under the nipple so that now the fire coming out of the nipple hits the sloping surface of a radius that ends at the mouth of the flash hole. I drilled away about 1/16 " to lower the entrance of the flash hole then used a ball end mill to make the radius. Maybe it will help. And Mr. Cobb, I bought two new nipples thinking maybe the one that was on it when I bought it might be burnt out, but there is no difference in any of the three I have. I've shot this gun about 150 times over the past week. And yes, I understand about clearing the fire channel. Iv'e tried everything including flushing it with alcohol, drying it and popping several caps. Nothing I have done has relieved this aggrevating spatboom little hang fire and plugged up fire channel for more than three or four shots at a time. Out of 20 shots I'll typically get about half a dozen hangs and any time I wipe the bore, I run about a 50:50 chance of stopping it up so tight that no number of popped caps will clear it. Take the nipple out and either dribble a tad of FFFFg under it or take a pick of some kind and rod out the hole. I've been using the shank of a fish hook for that. I had ideas of using this gun at Friendship but I'd spend too much time trying to get it to shoot. What is really grinding on my ace is this thing shoots like a house afire when it goes off! I borrowed an old Rapine 536/400 mould from a friend and made a sizer that trues up the egg shaped bullets a little and leaves them at .536". It'll shoot good with 40 grains of Goex fffg or 35gr Swiss fffg and a lube I mixed from beeswax and bear lard about 60% bw. On the bottom of the barrel is stamped .536 which is undoubtedly the bore diameter. Its scary accurate if I can just figure out how to make it reliable.

[mike davenport]

You stated you are new to our particular sport of shooting the "Burton Ball" aka " minie"
proper technique is crucial to good fire
first check the face of the nipple/cone and ensure to "hole" is not enlarged or "obround", if it is replace with a new nipple.
if gun is "dirty" fill the barrel with warm soapy water and let it set until cool. Then open the hammer and flush the water out thru the nipple with a patch and cleaning rod.
continue to wipe the bore until the patches come out clean and dry.
The "snap" one cap from the shoulder ( a good practice always) and several at the ground. You should see movement of grass, etc when snapping at the ground.
then carefully pore in your powder and the ram your lubricated projectile home, cap and fire. you should be able to fire at least 15 to 20 shots before the gun needs "cleaning"
If you cannot do that, then you have a " Lubricant" issue. Not a fire channel issue.
Wiping the bore and pushing down fouling will surely complicate the ignition sequence.

You did not indicate what caliber your mississippi is, if 54, you need a 533476 if 58 new style 575213 from lyman will do the job well. both have "wiping" groves that help scour the bore and relieve the fouling.

Now everyone has their own methods of doing this chore, but this one is tried and true and is used at every match down my way

just my humble opinions and practices
Mike Davenport
DSR

[John Bly]

I just picked up 3 barrels from Hoyt this past weekend that he lined for me. Two were 1842's and one was an 1841. I checked the flash channel hole size and a .099" drill will pass thru all 3. A .101" drill will not pass thru two of them. A .106" drill will not pass thru the third one, so the hole sizes are between .099" and .106" diameter. I'll pull the breech plugs to make sure the holes are deburred on the inside before shooting them.

While final cleaning my 1842 and 1841 today I checked the flash hole sizes and they were both about .116"-.120" diameter. I do not get any slow ignition with either of them nor excess blowback. The '42 has been lined and the '41 has not been lined.

While testing a team mates musket several weeks ago I got some hangfires, a definite Pop-boom about a third of the time. I pulled the breech plug and checked the flash channel and everything looked in order. I checked the nipple and it was fine. I never did figure out what was causing it. I ran out of time and ammo but I'll have to revisit it in the future.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

More things. The nipple maybe too short to fully seat down in the channel. Too long and the hammer won't hit the nipple square.
Make sure no threads show above the bolster.

[4th Tex. inf.]

I sure do appreciate all yall's help. Its good to be reminded of all the techniques for proper operation so something important isn't overlooked. I've learned a lot about this caplock and its operation that without this board would have taken me a long time. Its been raining here last couple of days so I didn't do much shooting, but what I did do was re-visit my shaping under the nipple. the length of the flash hole though the barrel and bolster from the percussion chamber has been the main problem all along. I used the same ball end mill to reduce the length of that flash hole by drilling deeper. Then I used a bigger ball end bit to shape the area between the flash hole and the center of the nipple. As before I have a sloping, polished surface that the fire coming out of the nipple hits and is sloped down hill and directly to the flash hole which is at the end of this round bottom trough. The total length of the flash hole now is slightly more than 1/16" although I cant accurately measure it, but eyeball mic looks like about that much. All this is in the left side of the nipple hole, so we're talking about a very small area but that slope and shorter path to the main charge has very nearly eliminated the spat/booms. It is a pleasure to finally have consistent ignition. Even after wiping, I can clear the flash hole by popping a cap. Yesterday I wiped it two or three times and it was still open when I popped a cap. Big improvement there. Last week it would have been hopelessly stopped up after wiping. I'm obviously getting a more direct path to the main charge. I have one more perplexing problem, but its a matter of load development or bedding I think. I get fliers out of my group to the 12 Oclock direction and about 6" or 8" higher than the group. I will try varying the load and lube to see if I can eliminate those fliers. Yesterday I shot about 18 or 19 shots (all the bullets I had cast) and had two of those fliers which isn't real bad but something I'd love to get rid of. The rest of my shots are landing in about a 4" or 5" group at 100yds with about 80% of those in about 2". That long range sight has a V notch and a barleycorn front so I'd attribute about half of the 5" groups to my 66 years old failing eyesight. When the light is just right though this gun will stack shots up nicely. Not uncommon to have 2 or 3 cutting the same hole out of a 5 shot string. Any ideas about how to eliminate these vertical fliers? Thanks again folks.