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View Full Version : More Mex War survivors ID'd, 12 in National Parks, 3 Army



cannonmn
01-01-2010, 02:26 PM
http://gs19.inmotionhosting.com/~milita ... /read/8132 (http://gs19.inmotionhosting.com/~milita8/cmh/member/member.cgi/read/8132)

cannonmn
01-01-2010, 08:25 PM
If you had any trouble viewing the data table, here are direct links to both pages:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/c ... er1jpg.jpg (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums53/Huger1jpg.jpg)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/c ... er2jpg.jpg (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums53/Huger2jpg.jpg)

threepdr
01-23-2010, 06:07 PM
John, are you aware of the M41 Mt Howitzers at Fort Leavenworth? The museum there has 4 tubes all engraved, that were at the fights in Mexico City. I'm fuzzy on unit (Maybe Co B, 4th US Arty?). This was US Grant's unit, so one of these tubes is the gun he man-handled up inside the church during the battle.

There are also 6 Mt Howitzer tubes embedded into the interior walls of the chapel, but I was not able to get the dates from them.

Mark Hubbs

cannonmn
01-23-2010, 07:43 PM
Thanks Mark, yes regarding the four you mention at Ft. L, I have the marks on those. Since they weren't issued from nor turned in to the Ordnance Dep't during the Mexican War, as far as I can tell, they do not show up on the Ordnance Department books for that timeframe.

I don't think I have any data on the other six you mention, one of us should ask Doug Cubbison, their historian, if he's got that info. He is very much into cannons, has written books on them etc.

threepdr
01-23-2010, 08:11 PM
Doug is a good friend of mine. We both cut our historic preservation teeth as co-workers at the same company here in Huntsville many years ago.

Steve Allie is the closest they have to a post historian. He runs the museum on post. Steve might know something about those tubes.

Doug is a private consultant and does work for the Combat Studies Institute at Leavenworth. I think the one artillery related publication that Doug has done deals mainly with the British employment of Artillery at Tichonderoga (sic) and Saratoga.

tkavanagh
03-05-2010, 05:22 PM
Some years ago I had cause to talk to an old friend, Jim Cheevers, of the US Naval Academy about the so-called "Old Woman's Gun." This was his reply:


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:27:51 -0500
From: James Cheevers <cheevers@usna.edu>
To: tkavanag@indiana.edu
Subject: OLD WOMAN'S GUN

Tom:

Indeed, the "old woman's gun" has been here in the U.S. Naval Academy Museum since 1925. I am importing below a copy of its documentation record.

Great to hear from you. Hope all is well. Best wishes. Jim

James W. Cheevers
Associate Director/Senior Curator
U.S. Naval Academy Museum
118 Maryland Ave.
Annapolis, MD 21402-5034
410 293-2109 Fax 410 293-5220

U.S. Naval Academy Museum
118 Maryland Avenue
Annapolis, Maryland 21402-5034

USNA cat. no. 25.1.8

WEAPON: ORDNANCE: BRASS SMOOTHBORE 4-POUNDER CANNON: 'OLD WOMAN'S GUN: MEXICAN WAR

Description: Brass, smoothbore, 4 pounder, cannon tube, 43 ½ inches overall in length; bore 2.77 inches diameter; 4 ½ inch muzzle section length; tube 4 inches in diameter at the muzzle astragal; 16 inch chase section; 6 inches between 3d and 2d reinforce; 9 ½ inches across at trunnions; stamped on right trunnion end 63 over C7; 12 ½ inches between 2d and 1st reinforce; engraved on top of barrel: on the chase: NO 63./CLASS 7./USED BY MEXICANS/IN/ CALIFORNIA/ AGAINST/UNITED STATES FORCES/AT/ DOMINGOS RANCH OCT. 1846/RIO SAN GABRIEL, AND/THE PLAINS OF THE MESA/ JAN'Y. 8TH & 9TH, 1847./ between the 2d reinforce and 1st reinforce: TROPHY/ NO 53/SURRENDERED/TO/ COMMODORE R. F. STOCKTON/UNITED STATES NAVY/AT/LOS ANGELOS [sic] CALIFORNIA,/JAN'Y 10, 1847/ between the 1st reinforce and the vent: USED BY UNITED STATES FORCES/IN/ MEXICO/AT/MAZATLAN NOV. 11TH 1847/URIOS [sic], CREW ALL KILLED OR WOUNDED/PALOS PRETOS [sic] DEC. 13 1847/AND/ IN LOWER CALIFORNIA/AT/SAN JOSE/FEB'Y 15, 1848/ and just forward of the vent 156; tube 6 1/4 inch diameter at 1st reinforce; 1 ½ inch vent section; 3 ½ inch, tubular open cascable with 3 ½ diameter at the back; wooden carriage, 13 3/8 x 25 x 23 inches with two axles and four wheels and two part trunnion caps [carriage not original to piece but made for exhibiting the tube].

Material: brass with dark green patina

Size: 43 3/4 inches overall

Weight: 150 lbs.

Condition: excellent for age; stable

Source: transferred from Bureau of Ordnance Museum, Washington Navy Yard, 7 March 1925.

History: The engraving on top of the cannon, which predates its acquisition and was most likely made shortly after the piece was delivered to Washington as a trophy of war, documents its history during the Mexican War. It has been nicknamed "the old woman's gun" because supposedly it had been hidden by an elderly woman in her garden between its uses by Mexican forces and nicknamed "Stockton gun" because of the senior naval officer involved in its capture.

On 13 August 1846, a naval brigade of 360 men advanced from San Pedro under Commodore Robert F. Stockton (1795-1866) and occupied Los Angeles. It is supposedly at this time that the 4 pounder cannon was buried in an elderly woman's garden to prevent its capture. Mexican army

USNA cat. no. 25.1.8

WEAPON: ORDNANCE: BRASS SMOOTHBORE 4-POUNDER CANNON: 'OLD WOMAN'S GUN: MEXICAN WAR

Captain Jose Maria Flores led an uprising by native Californians which forced American forces to abandon Los Angeles by 30 September. In an attempt to recapture Los Angeles, on 7 October, Captain William Mervine advanced from San Pedro with 225 men from the frigate Savannah and Captain Ward Marston, USMC, and Lieutenant Archibald H. Gillespie, USMC, and allied Californian forces. While encamped at Rancho Dominquez (present-day North Long Beach) in the early morning hours of 8 October, Flores's forces began intermittently shelling the camp with the 4-pounder which had been recovered from the garden in Los Angeles. At dawn Mervine broke camp and marched towards Los Angeles only to have forces under Jose Antonio Carrillo with 130 cavalry and the same 4-pounder mounted on a pair of wagon wheels continue the attacks. Without his own artillery and with four killed and six wounded, Mervine retreated to San Pedro to await re-enforcements. On 25 October, Commodore Stockton arrived at San Pedro aboard USS Congress, and after a brief skirmish known as the first Battle of La Mesa, he decided to abandon the effort to march on Los Angeles from San Pedro and moved his forces south to San Diego. Stockton did not know, but the California-Mexican forces were so low on gun powder they could not have put up a defense for very long.

Meanwhile, Captain Flores was able to reorganize and to obtain more supplies; although he still only had about forty rounds of ammunition for the 4-pounder cannon. In early January 1847, Commodore Stockton coordinated a two-pronged offensive to recapture Los Angeles. While Captain John C. Fremont and his California battalion moved south from Santa Barbara, Stockton advanced north from San Diego with a naval brigade and a detachment of dragoons which had arrived from Kansas under Colonel Steven W. Kearny. Stockton's forces numbered 607 men and had four artillery pieces, while Captain Jose M. Flores had 450 men and two cannons.

On 8 January, Flores ambushed Stockton's troops at La Jaboneria Ford on the San Gabriel River, firing round shot and grape shot, but, because of poor powder and makeshift shot, the attack had little effect. Stockton ordered his forces to cross the river, and he personally aimed and fired guns with great accuracy, temporarily disabling both of Flores's cannon. Flores's troops were able to pull back to a ravine and reopened the battle with the two cannons, killing two and wounding nine Americans. The American sailors held their line and Flores was forced to withdraw towards Los Angeles. On 9 January, Commodore Stockton's column defeated and dispersed the remainder of Captain Flores's army in the second Battle of La Mesa, and reoccupied Los Angeles and accepted the surrender of the 4-pounder cannon the next day. Three days later the Californians signed the Treaty of Cahuenga, ending the war in upper California.

Commodore Stockton was relieved by Commodores James Biddle and then William B. Shubrick who directed naval attention to Baja or lower California. San Jose del Cabo and San Lucas were briefly occupied by landing parties in March and April 1847. On 1 October the Mexican garrison was driven from Muleje by a party of 50 men under Lieutenant T.A.M. Craven landed from USS Dale, Commander Thomas O. Selfridge; and on 5 October, Craven and a landing party

USNA cat. no. 25.1.8

WEAPON: ORDNANCE: BRASS SMOOTHBORE 4-POUNDER CANNON: 'OLD WOMAN'S GUN: MEXICAN WAR

seized cannon at Loreto. On 20 October, frigate Congress, Captain Elie A.F. LaVallette, and sloop Portsmouth, Commander John B. Montgomery, bombarded Guaymas, Sonora, and briefly occupied the town. On 10 November, Independence, Congress, Cyane, and Erie arrived off Mazatlan, the most important Mexican port on Baja, and the next day a landing party of 730 men under Captain LaVallette drove out the 560 man force under Colonel Rafael Telles. According to the inscription on the 4-pounder cannon captured in Los Angeles, it was used by the Americans in this action. It had probably been carried aboard USS Congress which had formerly been Commodore Stockton's flagship.

Captain LaVallette learned that Colonel Telles had forces under a Swiss lieutenant, Carlos Horn, about ten miles south of Mazatlan, at Urias. He sent 94 sailors under Lieutenant George L. Selden to clear the road to San Sebastian. A second force under Lieutenant Stephen C. Rowan embarked in boats and ascended the bay running inland beyond Puerto Nuevo to cut the Mexicans' line of retreat. Except for a small skirmish one mile from Urias, Selden's march on 20 November was uneventful. Rowan's force failed to find the road, having disembarked to the east of Urias, and opened fire on the Mexicans at dawn. Selden's men then attacked the Mexican flank and sent them fleeing with Rowan's force in pursuit. Again, the 4-pounder trophy from Los Angeles was carried in this action, and evidently by its inscription the one American killed and some of the 20 wounded at Urias composed the gun's crew.

On 12 December, a naval detachment under Lieutenant Montgomery Lewis skirmished with Telles's cavalry outside Mazatlan; and on 13 December, a patrol of 20 Marines under Lieutenant William W. Russell, again with the same 4-pounder cannon, dispersed Mexican forces at Palos Prietos.

On 8 November 1847, a Marine garrison under Lieutenant Charles Heywood had been established at San Jose del Cabo. Mexican forces re-entered the town, and despite skirmishes the American garrison held out. Between 22 January and 14 February 1848, the garrison was under intermittent siege, which was lifted by the arrival of the sloop Cyane, Commander Samuel F. Dupont, who, on 15 February, landed a detachment of 102 men, again including the 4-pounder cannon, and drove out the forces of Captain Manuel Pineda. Not known to these forces was the fact that the Treaty of Guadaloupe Hidalgo, ending the Mexican War, had been signed on 2 February.

According to Martin Cole, a California researcher and writer, in an article "Smugglers' Cannon Had Role in the War for California," published in The Artilleryman, spring 1986, this gun "had previously been used in the Battle of Cahuenga by the revolutionary forces of Don Pio Pico in fighting Governor Manuel Micheltorena [February 7, 1845]."

Another source, Ron Hinrichs, Historian, San Pasqual Battlefield, in 1990 claimed that this gun was the "Sutter Gun" used in the Battle of San Pasqual [6 December 1846]. However, it is

USNA cat. no. 25.1.8

WEAPON: ORDNANCE: BRASS SMOOTHBORE 4-POUNDER CANNON: 'OLD WOMAN'S GUN: MEXICAN WAR

doubtful that this piece was used in that battle. In Surfboats and Horse Marines: U.S. Naval Operations in the Mexican War 1846-48 by K. Jack Bauer, 1969, following the Battle of San Pasqual "Pico was content not to re-engage until he received the reinforcements and artillery that Captain Flores had promised to send him." With Fremont's forces threatening him for the north and Stockton and Kearny to his south, it is doubtful Flores could afford to send any help to Pico. At least there is no further evidence that artillery was provided to Pico from the Los Angeles area for the battle.

Bibliography:

Bauer, K. Jack. Surfboats and Horse Marines: U.S. Naval Operations in the Mexican War, 1846-48. Annapolis: U.S. Naval Institute, 1969.

Cole, Martin. "Smugglers' Cannon Had Role in the War for California," The Artilleryman, vol. 7, no. 2, spring 1986. Arlington, MA.

Hibben, Henry B. Navy Yard, Washington: History from Organization, 1799 to Present Date. Washington: Government Printing Office, 1890.

Hutchison, Robert N. The Flag Incident and the Naming of Charter Oak, California. Glen Crago, 1976.

Illustrated History of Los Angeles County, California. Chicago: Lewis Publishing Co., 1889.

Metcalf, Clyde H. A History of the United States Marine Corps. New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1939.

Webster's American Military Biographies. Springfield, MA: G. & C. Merriam Co., 1978.

cannonmn
03-05-2010, 07:01 PM
Here's something I put on another discussion board which includes a number of photos of the piece:

http://gs19.inmotionhosting.com/~milita ... /read/6556 (http://gs19.inmotionhosting.com/~milita8/cmh/member/member.cgi/noframes/read/6556)